What terrible and sad event happened last night? And what is the ISBCC?
Extreme Cowardice
- Thread starter RLENT
- Start date
What terrible and sad event happened last night? And what is the ISBCC?
I suspect he isn't ...
That's probably a fair characterization ... at least in terms of the Executive Branch's blindness ... and may it ever be so ...
Nevertheless, the Administration is still largely in the tank for the Israelis, even if they have there eyes wide-open ... may it ever be otherwise in the future ...
Congress is another matter entirely ... what The Lobby wants, it has - up until very recently - for the most part, gotten ...
So much so that it passed into the common dialog with Saturday Night Live opining on the matter by caricaturing what Congress Critters would be willing to do for Israel on national TV ... in terms of activities involving a donkey ... or mule ... or something ...
(burro ?)
While that sketch did not air, it is reflective that what is largely known, but publicly unacknowledged, is passing the into mainstream conversation.
FWIW - The US should not blindly side with any nation.
No ... it's not fair to say that ...
The real problem comes in when people carelessly conflate that with all, or most, Muslims ... something I think, if one were to inspect the past record closely, we might find evidence of you yourself doing ...
Perhaps even in a highly venomous manner ...
Doing such is, very likely, reasonable evidence of either racism or religious bigotry ...
Nope ...
It does apply to the wife of a friend of mine though, who is a fallen (largely non-practicing) Catholic (the exact religion is largely irrelevant, I'm just being accurate) who remarked on the Toledo Mosque, while having my wife and I over to their house for dinner, saying something to the effect of:
"After 9/11, how dare they put that thing there ..."
And which point I promptly proceeded to tell her in no uncertain terms that I thought her comment was utterly (religiously) bigoted and was probably one of the most un-American things I had ever heard in my life ...
Needless to say, desert was rather ... subdued ...
It also likely applies to the nutjobs down in Tennessee (and elsewhere) who think that they can deny Americans their right to build and have a house of worship ... simply because they happen to be adherents of the Islamic faith ...
How many times have seen Palestinians using F-16's with cluster bombs and bombs with white phosphorus indiscriminately targeting a civilian population ?
How many times have you seen Iran or Iraq launch a foreign invasion of "Christian" country in pursuit of a unprovoked "war of aggression" ...
Implicit in your efforts above is the motivation to cast one side as "barbarians" and "savages" ... and another side (or sides) as "civilized" ...
It is certainly highly selective ... if not outright disingenuous and utterly dishonest ...
Of course drama queens often rely solely on appeal to emotion and highly-charged verbal imagery, which of course is a logical fallacy.
Your ability to spit out logical fallacies and irrelevancies is really something to truly behold ... I don't think ever seen anyone who is capable of packing more of them into a paragraph on a strictly per word basis. Congratulations !
Go ask a Palestinian father or mother who has had his home indiscriminately shelled by an Israeli Merkava tank and had his/her 3 year-old daughter killed who he thinks the "savages" and "barbarians" are ...
Or go ask a Palestinian wounded by an Israeli experimental D.I.M.E. (Dense Inert Metal Explosive) round who the "savages" and "barbarians" are:
Italian TV Exposes Experimental IDF Use of U.S. Weapon Which Severs and Burns Limbs Below Genitals Tikun-Olam Tikun Olam-????? ????
Dime bombs leave Israel's victims with mystery wounds - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk
I'm sure you mean the anti-military (slash) anti-imperialist vituperation ... and not anti American ... because you are, after all, so intellectually honest and would never resort to a fallacious argument ...
BTW - how are you coming with that whole invading Iraq and launching an unprovoked "war of aggression" was "defending the Constitution" thingie ?
Are you making any headway at all ?
I don't mean to seem impatient or anything, and I don't know for sure without checking the calendar ... but it's probably coming up on a year since you decided to share that little bit of apparently self-generated idiocy with us ...
Jus' sayin' ...
No - it's actually not cowardly - simply by virtue of the fact that it is very much a minority view at present ... and is one which is, in some quarters, highly reviled and detested ... most particularly by little authoritarian thug wannabes ...
I can tell you tell that my outspoken anti-militarism is something that I have been actually threatened with physical violence for - which was not a threat which I took at all lightly ...
And I wonder what we'd find if we closely inspected your history of posts ?
Of course, we'd have to go back aways ... before you learned that it might be a good idea to tone it down a little ...
Like much of what you post, I'm not sure that your proposed conclusion necessarily follows from the facts you cite ...
Thank you....
response..................
Immediately after the Boston bombings, "After the terrible and sad events of last night..."
Islamic Society of Boston Cultural Center, the big mosque in Boston.
OK OK got it thanks, im a little slow sometimes.
I certainly missed it. I thought they only became involved because they were being questioned about members.
Much to Bill O'Reilly's and the other Fox News talking head's chagrin, the Muslim World isn't a monolithic entity. They don't all take the same marching orders from a single leader. Muslims have a wide ranging set of attitudes towards terrorism and Islamic extremists, from full-on support to outrage and vocal opposition. Not at all unlike the Christian World's take on the Westboro Baptist Church and other wild and crazy things Christians do.
I watched a lot of Fox News during and after the Nairobi mall attack, and going by Fox News, it was an attack that was planned and sanctioned by every Muslim on the planet. On The Five, calm, cool and always collected Bob Beckel ranted, "They are not the religion of peace...You moderate Muslims out there...the time has come for you to stand up and say something! And I will repeat what I said before: No Muslim students coming here with visas, no more mosques being built here until you stand up and denounce what's happened in the name of your prophet...The time has come for Muslims in this country, and for other people around the world, to stand up...and if you can't, you're cowards!"
I wonder where, exactly, Bob expects these moderate Muslims to stand up and say something? On the street corner? At the mall? The grocery store? Where do all the Christians go to rail on Westboro? If they don't, are they all cowards, like Bob says? The only thing Christians said about the Centennial Park Bombing was that Eric Rudolph, who was also responsible for a string of anti-gay and anti-abortion bombings across the south which killed two people and injured at least 150 others, was not a "true Christian," and they only said that when they were cornered and questioned. Despite Rudolph's written statements before, during and after the bombings where he listed his motivations as being taken directly from the Bible, and his membership and association with the extremist Christian Identity and Army of God groups, many Christians simply dismissed his connection to Christianity at all. They wanted to distance themselves as far away from that as possible. Can you imagine the gall of Muslims wanting to do the same thing?
Right after the Nairobi mall attack, and during the standoff, Muslim groups the world over denounced the attack on their Web sites, and in front of a camera when someone bothered to point it at them. Fox News didn't show much of those statements, though, but they did show statements from other radical Muslims that supported the attack, and made it seem that was the sentiment of most Muslims. If I hadn't been actively looking elsewhere and had gotten all my information from Fox, I'd be believing that the only good Muslim in a dead one.
Last edited:
Maverick
Seasoned Expediter
Really? Like what?
As well they should have stated....and correctly so.
From the wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph
None of what this guy did is related to The Christian at all. Just like the extremist Muslim is not indicative of Muslims as a whole.
Adding some more paint to that mural your trying to complete?
There seems to be quite a few Muslim public relations organizations and other similar groups - CAIR, MPAC, AMANA to name a few.
More listed here: The American Muslim (TAM)
They could get their denunciations of jihad across loud and clear to the American public and the entire world if they wanted to do so.
The mall would be a good start - The National Mall, actually. I'm still waiting on the Million Muslim March against radical Islamic terrorism and a fatwa issued for all true believers to kill those jihadists who supposedly defile the teachings of Mohammed and do blasphemy to the religion of peace.
These people sure didn't have any trouble making themselves heard and their will known when Salman Rushdie wrote his Satanic Verses; their outrage was heard on a worldwide basis. Rushdie fears for his life to this day, thanks to the resulting fatwa: "As the controversy spread, the import of the book was banned[SUP][9][/SUP] in India and it was burned in demonstrations in the United Kingdom. In mid February 1989, following a violent riot against the book in Pakistan, the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, then Supreme Leader of Iran and a Shi'a Muslim scholar, issued a fatwa calling on all Muslims to kill Rushdie and his publishers, or to point him out to those who can kill him if they cannot themselves.[SUP][10"
[/SUP]The Satanic Verses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They also didn't have any trouble assembling mobs in the streets when some obscure cartoons were published in a Danish newspaper, offending Muslim sensitivities and resulting in multiple fatwas for the artist's head. Hundreds of deaths were reported in demonstrations around the world.
Shariat court issues Fatwa against Danish cartoonist Lastupdate:- Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com
Why don't even one-half of these "moderate Muslims" generate these types of high-visibility protests against the Islamo-fascists that promote and conduct terrorism that's supposedly opposite of the "peaceful" teachings of Mohammed as stated in the Koran? Could it be they implicitly condone terrorist attacks against infidels by conveniently distancing themselves from the jihadists, rather than loudly protest their barbaric crimes against humanity and call for their heads?
Well, for one, like when people who call themselves "Christian" go onto Web forums and claim that other people who claim to be "Christian" are not Christian at all, and criticize the people who call those who claim to be "Christian," Christian.
And yet these same Christian will claim that all Muslims are "true" Muslims.
Which is it, "at all" or "as a whole"? Because "at all" is not "just like" "as a whole." Dood claimed to be a Christian, and pulled his justification right out of the Bible. You can pretend that anyone who does anything that puts Christianity in a bad light, anyone who sins, isn't a Christian, and that's fine, but they are nevertheless a part of the Christian faith and the church. The body of Christ is made up of humans, and none of them, you included, are gonna live like Jesus, perfect, and free of sin. If you have a problem with that, then you're problem isn't with me, it's with Christ and the church. Take it up with them.
I never claimed to be painting a mural. When did you stop beating your wife?
Maverick
Seasoned Expediter
LOL. Well, I told her I was a goin to that there forum to type some more, she resisted the notion, while making a batch of New Year's fudge, but here I am. Didn't have to resort to any violence, but she has been subdued with a couple glasses of good Red, and another log in the fireplace.
After all, I do like fudge.
The problem with your postings are most always this:
You admit there is a group of people who follow teachings of the Bible, all the while attributing acts of non-Christian behavior from those who do not follow that same teaching...yet you claim them as Christian. One cannot possibly take a bomber who claims he got his orders/ideas from scripture....when it's not in scripture and then talk of the crazy things "Christians" do, using that nut case as an example.
It's as silly as lumping union workers with scabs during a strike.....while trying to convince the union people holding signs, that the scabs are part of the union as they cross the picket line. It's ridiculous.
Last edited:
You think when a scant handful of Muslim organizations speak, the US media is there at the ready to report on it all? The funny thing is, those groups make their denunciations, but the media doesn't carry it. So how, exactly, do they become loud and clear?
That may be one of the silliest, and ignorant things I've ever seen you write. Just because Christians have a rich and full history of killing blasphemers doesn't mean other religions do the same.
These people? That's funny. But "these people" were the extremists, not the groups you referenced above. And the "these people" in the US didn't riot, or even show up to the CBS studio that day to kill him.
Yeah, sure, it certainly could be. You should probably ask some of them. The ones I've talked to certainly don't seem to condone it. It could also be that, just like Christians, not all of them, or even one-half of them, feel like getting angry and going nuts because a small percentage of Christians do un-Chrlist-like things, and they want to distance themselves from it. Where was the Christian rioting in the streets when the abortion clinics were getting bombed? The hardest condemnation we hear about that was, "They're not true Christians," and then the rest of the Christians, sufficiently distanced, washed their hands of it.
So what percentage of responsibility does each side deserve, woman and guard?
Nope. _I_ don't claim they are Christian, _THEY_ claim they are Christian. I'm not going to sit here in judgement and say they're not Christian, simply because they've sinned in a way that Christ would not have sinned, because there are very, very few ways that Christ would sin.
And yet I did. That's because there are lots and lots of things that aren't in the scripture that even true genuine bona fide Christians claim are in there, if you just read it right. He claimed, and still claims, that he is a Christian. "The truth is I am a Christian. As a Christian, I accept as my brother in Christ anyone who believes in the tenets of the faith." So I'm not the one who claims he's the Christian. He is. And not only that, you're his brother in Christ.
Of course it's ridiculous, because scabs were never part of the union in the first place, and they never claimed to be. It's as silly and as ridiculous as Christians who believe "Muslim terrorist" is a perfectly fine term, but that "Christian terrorist" is an oxymoron.
Maverick
Seasoned Expediter
Christ did not sin....at all.
Ah, no.
Exactly
Tell ya what Turtle. I'm going to bow out of this conversation because it's not of the mainstream point, and you folks are having a discussion in a different direction. I don't think you'll ever get it, and smart as you are about many things? You seem to have some twisted agenda here, which I would soon leave alone for now. I'll surely look for your expertise....toward other subjects.
Have a Happy New Year....and be safe out there.
Not talking about "other religions" - just Muslims. What Christians did several centuries ago is irrelevant when discussing present-day situations. Innocent people died because of the fatwa issued against Salman Rushdie. Hundreds were killed in worldwide demonstrations against the Danish cartoons, and several others related to the Danish newspapers were killed because of the fatwa issued. Kurt Westergaard fortunately survived attempts on his life by Islamic wackos. Once again, my point is this: if they can protest political cartoons published in countries that have freedom of speech laws, they can protest the violent actions and crimes of their own radicals. Imagine a Christian leader like Franklin Graham calling for all Protestants to go out and kill journalists that make fun of Jesus Christ or authors that criticize the Christian religion; talk about silly and ignorant. Let's at least keep the conversation in the context of the current century.
"These people" are the ones Bob Beckel was talking about: "You moderate Muslims out there...the time has come for you to stand up and say something!"
[/QUOTE]
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
What percentage of responsibility would your (unarmed) wife or daughter deserve, if a squad of Mexican border police showed up in your neighborhood, after having been there repeatedly - as a consequence of their illegal occupation of your neighborhood and your country - harrassing you, your family, and your neighbors ... doing stuff like spraying the equivalent of Israeli "skunk juice", using tear gas, shooting US citizens with rubber coated bullets, and generally doing things a brutal occupying power does ... all because y'all had the temerity to come out and protest against their illegal actions because y'all had some strange, funny idea that y'all had the right to self-determination and a sovereign nation of your own ... and they shot her repeatedly with rubber coated bullets ?
Remember: this incident didn't occur in Israel - it occurred in the Occupied Territories - which by any reasonable measure is a foreign land which Israel is illegally occupying.
Israeli skunk fouls West Bank protests | Reuters
Ball is in your court: now ... address the issue ...
FWIW: The answer to your question ought to be self-evident ...
That is assuming you aren't a hypocrite, and are actually willing to grant to others the very same rights you would claim for you and yours ...
Last edited:
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Written Statement of the Council on American-Islamic Relations
(the above is a good and fairly short read - in terms of recommendations to the US government to make fighting terrorism more effective vis-a-vis utilization of the Muslim community in the US, and towards avoiding unnecessary stupidity that would alienate them)
Further from the above linked document:
Final observations: It has become utterly clear from your most recent statements in this thread alone (not that it wasn't before), 1. you really have no idea whatsoever of what you are talking about, and 2. that your rabid religious bigotry and venomous hatred is not directed only towards those extremists who one could say would clearly deserve it (the hatred, not the bigotry) as a consequence of their insane, violent, murderous actions - but towards the broader community of Muslims, most of whom are peaceful, contributing citizens of this country.
I suspect that based on your posts in this thread (as well as your past history of posts on the subject) that there is absolutely nothing that the broader Muslim community could do or say that would actually satisfy you ...
Like much of what you write and post, that would make your position itself, fallacious ... since it is not one undertaken in good faith ...
Last edited:
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
From the statement from MPAC:
MPAC Commends Law Enforcement, Prays for Boston As Events Unfold - Muslim Public Affairs Council