Well don't come to Michigan than because if your 5,000# or more your required to have DOT number.
DOT/Trooper
- Thread starter skyraider
- Start date
Well don't come to Michigan than because if your 5,000# or more your required to have DOT number.
I thought that was just for Michigan registered trucks?
A US Dot # is issued by the Feds...a State should have no say in that matter...it is not a state issue.
Imagine all lower 48 doing this at different weight levels?
The Feds should bring interstate commercial truck traffic under one umbrella...and unify the laws...
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Never seen a hummer H2 with DOT numbers.
transporter
Expert Expediter
van operated illegally--he tell gated so he was pulled over
once and offense has been committed officer has every right to check on legality and safey of truck and driver.
dot if under 10,001 lbs you do not have to have any markings.
each state however can require you to. but only to citzens of there state.
once and offense has been committed officer has every right to check on legality and safey of truck and driver.
dot if under 10,001 lbs you do not have to have any markings.
each state however can require you to. but only to citzens of there state.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
OVM, whether we think all of this info is accurate but in fact there is a lot of weird stuff on the books here in this twisted state and a lot of tickets that are not dismissed because it is written otherwise. There is no reason why the MSP will not ticket someone from out of state for no signs or numbers, epecially if they are not from Indiana or Ohio and have that magic dome on the top of the truck, the same goes for cube or box vans.
See it has to do with revenue here, not fairness and they are betting that you as a driver who is from South Dakota will not make the trip hack here to fight a ticket on an inflexible court date which is for that few hundred. If you get to a referee or a judge, than it may be one of these cases where well they won't be in the mood to hear from someone who lives in another state and say 'Oh well, pay the clerk'.
See it has to do with revenue here, not fairness and they are betting that you as a driver who is from South Dakota will not make the trip hack here to fight a ticket on an inflexible court date which is for that few hundred. If you get to a referee or a judge, than it may be one of these cases where well they won't be in the mood to hear from someone who lives in another state and say 'Oh well, pay the clerk'.
Your correct unfortunately....
At Christmas time we got a ticket for get this "Heavy Commercial truck on Residential Street" this is in DC...
$250 $$$.....I could have fought it..but at what cost...The ticketer knew I wouldn't probably..free money for the county..
At least a parking ticket doesn't count on your driving record..
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Geo,
Here is the issue with that was of thinking.
If you do run say 18 hours straight and get pulled into a scale or the side of the road, but seem tired or what ever. The officer asks for proof of taking breaks and you can't prove it, the office can put you out of service for 10 hours. It doesn't matter if you are under 10k or not, no CDL or CDL. The catch is this, if you decide to run the OSS, now you may face a license suspension and getting dinged for two violations.
Here is the issue with that was of thinking.
If you do run say 18 hours straight and get pulled into a scale or the side of the road, but seem tired or what ever. The officer asks for proof of taking breaks and you can't prove it, the office can put you out of service for 10 hours. It doesn't matter if you are under 10k or not, no CDL or CDL. The catch is this, if you decide to run the OSS, now you may face a license suspension and getting dinged for two violations.
EdwinDavis
Seasoned Expediter
If all vans was to go in to the weigh stations.That would hold up the trucks even longer.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
No not really, the trucks would have prepass and the vans don't.
Forget it Greg...shove your logs and scales up your butt pal...
Don't want or need your misery....I think you guys are afraid of us vans taking more and more of your loads and feel threatened....
Wait til we design a van that can be dock level...then the crying will really start!!
Don't want or need your misery....I think you guys are afraid of us vans taking more and more of your loads and feel threatened....
Wait til we design a van that can be dock level...then the crying will really start!!
greg334
Veteran Expediter
NO OVM you are so so wrong. I want to see you's guy run free, like doves flying away at a wedding but not to ruin it for others doing so.
This driving the point home has to do with the yahoo idiot who just got signed on with "who ever" expediting service who emphisizes this is "emerguncy freight" which has to be there at the time we say it has to be there. It is these guys who is making money for the first time in their pathetic life and they don't get what they can do better, just get'r done there bud! They are driven to get the job done the fastest so to keep their acceptance rates up or to please the dimwitted dispatcher who just learned how to spell t r u c k. They don't give a crap about anyone other than themselves, they drive recklessly and are generally clueless but the first to b*tch on how unfair ir is that they get a ticket or have to wait because they just drove 26 hours and dispatch said "Let's take a break". These are the guys you want to be pulled into the scale, you want the DOT officer to say "buddy, you have these violations and can't move until they are fixed", and most of all you want off the road.
This driving the point home has to do with the yahoo idiot who just got signed on with "who ever" expediting service who emphisizes this is "emerguncy freight" which has to be there at the time we say it has to be there. It is these guys who is making money for the first time in their pathetic life and they don't get what they can do better, just get'r done there bud! They are driven to get the job done the fastest so to keep their acceptance rates up or to please the dimwitted dispatcher who just learned how to spell t r u c k. They don't give a crap about anyone other than themselves, they drive recklessly and are generally clueless but the first to b*tch on how unfair ir is that they get a ticket or have to wait because they just drove 26 hours and dispatch said "Let's take a break". These are the guys you want to be pulled into the scale, you want the DOT officer to say "buddy, you have these violations and can't move until they are fixed", and most of all you want off the road.
I see your point Greg...and YES it is exactly those type I too want to be gone from this business...BUT at the same time I don't want to be saddled with logging and scaling...but sorry to say since carriers won't do anything...yours maybe the only solution to ridding ourselves of these jerks...Look at the other thread where Col thinks we macho men should trudge thru whatever it takes to get the job done...with no regard to safety..but what can you expect,,he is a company owner
Now I like that Idea,lolForget it Greg...shove your logs and scales up your butt pal...
Don't want or need your misery....I think you guys are afraid of us vans taking more and more of your loads and feel threatened....
Wait til we design a van that can be dock level...then the crying will really start!!
Not only does "under 10k or not, no CDL or CDL" matter, it's the critical litmus test for which rules and regulations that can be applied to the situation. Have you ever heard of any kind of police officer pulling over the driver of a soccer mommy van, and because the driver cannot prove they have had rest breaks, the officer tells the driver that they cannot drive for 10 hours, to just sit right there until 10 hours pass? That's absurd on the face of it. Under 10k or not, CDL or no CDL absolutely matters.
A non-regulated vehicle does not have to have proof of taking breaks, since they are not subject to HoS rules in the first place. This is true of a soccer mommy van or an expedited cargo van. If a driver (expedited or soccer mommy) is clearly impaired, be it too tired, sick, drunk, high, or whatever then the officer can can either ticket or arrest the driver, but he cannot put the driver of an unregulated non-commercial vehicle "out of service" without actually arresting them and charging them with a violation that would require them to not drive. Even if the driver has stone-cold proof of breaks, the officer can still ticket or arrest a driver if they are clearly too impaired to drive, but being placed "out of service" implies that you can be "in service", and "in service" only applies to commercial motor vehicles (and other certain types of vehicles like taxi cabs) which have the dual "in" and "out" of service status, i.e., for-hire vehicles that are also regulated by the DOT.
Unless a cargo van meets the actual, written definition of a Commercial Motor Vehicle as defined by the DOT and under FMCSA rules and regulations, then the rules and regulations that apply to a regulated, commercial motor vehicle do not apply, and the only rules and regulation that can be applied to a non-commercial motor vehicle are the ones that apply to any and all motor vehicles (cars, pickups). There are some rules that apply to a driver with a CDL that do not apply to a non-CDL holder, but Hos isn't one of them.
People (generally straight truck and big truck drivers) who are clamoring to have cargo van be required to log and scale don't really and truly understand the reasons behind logging and scaling. They think they do, but they don't. Oh, sure, they state "safety" as the reason, but they don't even know what that means. The biggest reason straight truck and big truck drivers want cargo vans to log and scale is because they themselves have to log and scale and they don't think it's fair to be singled out, and that anyone hauling freight of any kind should be subject to the same rules, as if hauling freight is the determining factor here. Truth is, they are being singled out, but not because they drive for a living or because they haul freight, but rather of the size and weight of the vehicle they drive, and driving a vehicle that large and that heavy while too tired can have disastrous results with regard to the general public.
The thing is, contrary to popular belief, cargo vans, at least those who haul freight carrier under authority, do in fact have their accidents recorded by the FMCSA, as those accidents must be reported by the carrier to the FMCSA. The rate and severity of cargo van accidents mirror that of the general driving public. When a cargo van has an accident, the results are not dissimilar to that of a car, pickup, SUV, or your regular soccer mommy van, where most accidents don't even result in fatalities and in a bad accident where there are fatalities, everyone, including the driver, dies. When fatalities involving a cargo van do occur, one generally cannot point to the vehicle itself as the cause of the fatalities. In a big truck accident, most accidents result in greater damage, including fatalities, and the driver often walks away while everyone else dies. Its not the percentage of accidents that require regulation and restrictions like HoS, it's the percentage of accidents that result in fatalities, and it's the truck itself, it's weight, that can often be pointed to as the cause of the severity of the accident.
People say that RV drivers should be regulated with logging and scaling, but the fact is that RV's are involved in relatively few accidents as compared to both CMV's and the general public, and certainly not enough for the public to be screaming for their regulation.
The safety rules like HoS regulation are in place to protect the general public. Cargo vans, unless carrying passengers or HAZMAT or beyond a certain weight, do not present any significantly greater danger to the general public than any other vehicle on the road. Large, heavy trucks do. And that's why trucks have to log and scale while vans don't.
There are some carriers who will via company policies internally regulate cargo vans under their authority insofar as HoS. They usually do so under the guise of "safety", but when you look closely the reason is simply to limit their liability amidst a litigious society, as safety really isn't the primary factor when factoring in a cost analysis of having the reduced reveneue of idle freight versus hours that of paying out higher insurance fees and court ordered damages. It's the same cost analysis that car companies use to decide whether to recall a defective automobile, as in which is cheaper overall: recalling the vehicle, or paying out in lost lawsuits. Safety takes a back seat unless and until it becomes the more visible issue.
Very good answer, Im a cargo van operator and do not have dot stickers on my van. We just look like everyone else going down the road. Our boss says we dont need them,,under 10k lbs, he says.
dhalltoyo
Veteran Expediter
Thank you Turtle!
It is simply a matter of basic physics; mass and force. The danger of a fatal accident is markedly increased in direct proportion to the size and weight of the offending vehicle.
I have yet to see a under 10,001 lb GVWR cargo van flipped over on its side and lying in the median, but I have seen numerous dump trucks, day cab straights/tractors and long haul straights/tractors hanging over bridge railings, down over embankments or coming to rest with a car trapped underneath.
And who knocks over all of those light posts in truck stops?
Probably those massive cargo vans backing into a parking space.
Moreover, any operator, of any weight class vehicle, can exceed reasonable and safe driving practices anytime they choose to do so. Many drivers run multiple log books and operate without sufficient rest.
Requiring under 10,001 lb GVWR units to scale and log will only make the highways more unsafe as those trucks who statistically are involved in more fatal accidents will operate with less restraint.
Why do you think passenger vehicles have such little regard for traffic laws? Simple. The visible presence of law enforcement is not sufficient in proportion to the number of vehicles on the road ; hence, they know that they can operate in an unlawful manner with minimal concern of being stopped for a violation.
Personally, I have no problem with keeping a log book or running across the scales, but I believe requiring under 10,001 lb GVWR units to scale and log will only make the highways more unsafe.
It is simply a matter of basic physics; mass and force. The danger of a fatal accident is markedly increased in direct proportion to the size and weight of the offending vehicle.
I have yet to see a under 10,001 lb GVWR cargo van flipped over on its side and lying in the median, but I have seen numerous dump trucks, day cab straights/tractors and long haul straights/tractors hanging over bridge railings, down over embankments or coming to rest with a car trapped underneath.
And who knocks over all of those light posts in truck stops?
Probably those massive cargo vans backing into a parking space.
Moreover, any operator, of any weight class vehicle, can exceed reasonable and safe driving practices anytime they choose to do so. Many drivers run multiple log books and operate without sufficient rest.
Requiring under 10,001 lb GVWR units to scale and log will only make the highways more unsafe as those trucks who statistically are involved in more fatal accidents will operate with less restraint.
Why do you think passenger vehicles have such little regard for traffic laws? Simple. The visible presence of law enforcement is not sufficient in proportion to the number of vehicles on the road ; hence, they know that they can operate in an unlawful manner with minimal concern of being stopped for a violation.
Personally, I have no problem with keeping a log book or running across the scales, but I believe requiring under 10,001 lb GVWR units to scale and log will only make the highways more unsafe.
You can't count on a green light with prepass . On a recent trip through TN my prepass didn't come on at one scale , was redlighted t the next , then got the green light at the third . This regularly happens in TN .
You all need to be aware that warnings will also get points against you with CSA 2010 .
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Very good post Turtle.
In other sections, Commercial Motor Vehicles are defined more narrowly, and vans do not fall under the definition. Consider the following definitions:
From Part 658:
"Commercial Motor Vehicle. For purposes of this regulation, a motor vehicle designed or regularly used to carry freight, merchandise, or more than ten passengers, whether loaded or empty, including buses, but not including vehicles used for vanpools, or recreational vehicles operating under their own power."
From Part 390:
"Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—
(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or
(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or
(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C."
One has to read the definitions, which are contained in beginning of each Part, in order to determine exactly which vehicles the regulations contained therein apply to.
Yes - this is true - however it is important to understand that the definition of a Commercial Motor Vehicle varies from section to section of the FMCSR's - in some instances, a van would be considered a Commercial Motor Vehicle (broad definition) and the regulations in that section of the FMCSR's would apply.
In other sections, Commercial Motor Vehicles are defined more narrowly, and vans do not fall under the definition. Consider the following definitions:
From Part 658:
"Commercial Motor Vehicle. For purposes of this regulation, a motor vehicle designed or regularly used to carry freight, merchandise, or more than ten passengers, whether loaded or empty, including buses, but not including vehicles used for vanpools, or recreational vehicles operating under their own power."
From Part 390:
"Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—
(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or
(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or
(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C."
One has to read the definitions, which are contained in beginning of each Part, in order to determine exactly which vehicles the regulations contained therein apply to.
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