Dot regulations

cjmitch · Feb 19, 2011

I am sure this as been talked about before here but I cant seem to find much on it. Does dot regulations such as hours of service and scale apply to cargo vans under 10000#. and can any tell me what site I can go to to find this and print it off I have been having a discussion with another drive he says they apply to ALL commercial vehicle that haul general commodity. Including cargo vans hauling expedited freight.

Turtle · Feb 20, 2011

The other driver is ignorant of the rules and regulations, and as is usually the case when someone is ignorant of the actual rules and regulations and their applicability, and instead are relying on flawed deductive reasoning, he is wrong.

The DOT FMCSA regulations apply to Commercial Motor Vehicles (CMV), not merely Commercial Vehicles (A.K.A. cargo vans engaged in commerce of any kind). The DOT defines quite specifically which vehicles come under its regulations.

Definitions. - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

Commercial motor vehicle means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the vehicle—

(1) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 or more pounds) inclusive of a towed unit with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or

(2) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 or more pounds); or

(3) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(4) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of materials found to be hazardous for the purposes of the Hazardous Materials Transportation Act (49 U.S.C. 5103(b)) and which require the motor vehicle to be placarded under the Hazardous Materials Regulations (49 CFR part 172, subpart F).

The only part of the definitions that apply to a cargo van is (4) when the van is placarded for HAZMAT. At all other times a cargo van, even one hauling general commodity, is not a Commercial Motor Vehicle.

The DOT FMCSA is about safety of the public, and they are only concerned about the weight of a vehicle and how dangerous it is, or about what a vehicle is hauling with respect to HAZMAT (which is inherently dangerous). The hauling of general freight (commodities or otherwise) is irrelevant to the safety of the public, which is why the DOT could care less about cargo vans (unless they are hauling placardable HAZMAT, of course, because it is at that point where the van becomes a danger to the public).

nightcreacher · Feb 20, 2011

what you do when the scale says all commercial vehicles over 8000 must enter?I know you are regulated when hauling haz mat,but if you enter the scale because it says you must,since your over 8000 #,can they then check your truck out for a vehicle inspection?

Turtle · Feb 20, 2011

nightcreacher said:
what you do when the scale says all commercial vehicles over 8000 must enter?

If I'm over 8000 pounds, or close enough to it that I'm not 100% confident that I'm under 8000 pounds, I'll pull in. Wisconsin, for example, requires all vehicles over 8000 pounds to stop, but that's the actual gross weight of the vehicle (GVW), not the GVWR of the vehicle. So if I'm loaded with 1000 pounds of freight, which doesn't put me over the 8000 pound mark, I won't stop. Just depends on the state and what the law says and on what the sign says.

I know you are regulated when hauling haz mat,but if you enter the scale because it says you must,since your over 8000 #,can they then check your truck out for a vehicle inspection?

Sure they can. They can't do a DOT inspection because I'm not a CMV according to the DOT, but they can certainly do a safety inspection in accordance with the laws of that state, the same laws that apply to any vehicle on the road. Like, they can check axle weights or functioning lights or tire tread depth, same as any vehicle a cop might pull over on the side of the road, but they certainly can't audit my logbook or any other FMCSA rules that do not apply to me.

zero3nine · Feb 20, 2011

Back in the day when I had a GMC cutaway 14' box at 12000 Gvwr, the officers would actually get irritated with me at San Onofre when I pulled through the scale.... but I always did. I could have driven past it every time. Try that stunt at Banning and they will chase you down.

In the CV, I am not stopping at any scale for any reason. They want to inspect me, they can come do so at the roadside.

fired at you from my Droideka

nightcreacher · Feb 20, 2011

I thought if your truck was capable of 8000 lbs or more when loaded,thats what they went buy

Turtle · Feb 20, 2011

nightcreacher said:
I thought if your truck was capable of 8000 lbs or more when loaded,thats what they went buy

No, usually it's the actual weight at the time, rather than the GVWR capability. In Ohio, for example, some speed limit signs say "vehicles over 4 tons" or "vehicles over 4 tons empty".

They are concerned about weight and how dangerous heavy vehicles are. If my Sprinter weighs 6200 pounds, it's not a danger to the public, even though it has the capability of weighing out at 8550 pounds. When fully loaded at over 8000 pounds, that's when they are concerned, especially when it comes to overweight and axle weight, because overweight and over on an axle creates a dangerous situation. Unless the signs specifically state GVRW, and not GVW, then I don't need to pull into the scale unless I'm at or near 8000 pounds.

purgoose10 · Feb 20, 2011

zero3nine said:
Back in the day when I had a GMC cutaway 14' box at 12000 Gvwr, the officers would actually get irritated with me at San Onofre when I pulled through the scale.... but I always did. I could have driven past it every time. Try that stunt at Banning and they will chase you down.

In the CV, I am not stopping at any scale for any reason. They want to inspect me, they can come do so at the roadside.

fired at you from my Droideka

You are so right about San Onofre CA. I used to deliver at the nuclear plant there before they closed, always gotta a bunch of junk from them. And Banning I paid a thousand dollar fine there in my D unit. Put a lawyer on them and got the money back but it went to the attorney, but anyway Ca didn't get it.

Moot · Feb 20, 2011

Turtle said:
Wisconsin, for example, requires all vehicles over 8000 pounds to stop, but that's the actual gross weight of the vehicle (GVW), not the GVWR of the vehicle

Signage prior to scales in Wisconsin state: All trucks over 4 tons must weigh at weigh station. The key words here are trucks and 4 tons.I am but a lowly ignorant van driver. The word trucks is not a part of my every day vocabulary. What exactly is a truck? I own a Chevrolet cargo van. Not a Chevrolet cargo truck. Also the word tons greatly confuses me. Do they mean long tons, short tons or metric tons? Are 8 short tons the equivalent of 4 long tons? If so, then it stands to reason that 4 long tons are equivalent to 8 short tons. What about metric tons that the rest of the civilized world uses?

To add to the confusion there is no mention of GVWR or actual gross vehicle weight. Here I gotta go with GVWR, not actual weight, since vehicles over 10,000# GVWR must be identified as so. Also most states use GVRW or declared weight for tax and licensing purposes.

Since I don't haul hazmat any more I don't stop at scales. If I ever get chased down for running a scale I'll just plead ignorant. I be good at ignerent.

cjmitch · Feb 20, 2011

Thanks for everyone's comments they helped a lot.

zero3nine · Feb 20, 2011

purgoose10 said:
You are so right about San Onofre CA. I used to deliver at the nuclear plant there before they closed, always gotta a bunch of junk from them. And Banning I paid a thousand dollar fine there in my D unit. Put a lawyer on them and got the money back but it went to the attorney, but anyway Ca didn't get it.

Since when is San Onofre closed? I delivered there less than 6 months ago.

Glad you stuck it to the man... did you get one of the T shirts they sell at the truck stops nearby? Banning's commercial enforcement officers are well known across the country for being... um.... special.

fired at you from my Droideka

Turtle · Feb 21, 2011

Moot said:
Since I don't haul hazmat any more I don't stop at scales. If I ever get chased down for running a scale I'll just plead ignorant. I be good at ignerent.

To succeed in life, you need two things: ignorance and confidence. - Mark Twain

Pianoguy · Feb 23, 2011

Those Banning enforcement guys are special. So special that they have xray vision able to see cracked brake drums on brand new equipment. To the point of when we didnt buy it had the drum Magnafluxed and still couldn't find that mysterious crack.

purgoose10 · Feb 23, 2011

zero3nine said:
Since when is San Onofre closed? I delivered there less than 6 months ago.

Glad you stuck it to the man... did you get one of the T shirts they sell at the truck stops nearby? Banning's commercial enforcement officers are well known across the country for being... um.... special.

fired at you from my Droideka

Sorry got them confused. I meant Ranco Saco, Ca.

skyraider · Feb 23, 2011

Just blend in with other vans on the road. I don't have those big decals, just magnetic signs . I just stick one on when I'm delivering or picking up for whatever carrier I am at the moment, on the road, they come off. Being empty I'm at 5700 lbs, and loaded never more then 2000 lbs, I wont carry anymore then that. S0 99.9% of the time, I'm way under the 8000 lb deal. amen to the simple.

Now the above info will get u a free coffee at Waffle House in
Lugoff . In Wylie Tx, enjoying the day,,NO SNOW HERE

zero3nine · Feb 23, 2011

Pianoguy said:
Those Banning enforcement guys are special. So special that they have xray vision able to see cracked brake drums on brand new equipment. To the point of when we didnt buy it had the drum Magnafluxed and still couldn't find that mysterious crack.

You want special? Try St. George Utah some time.

fired at you from my Droideka

snowmojim · Feb 24, 2011

Am I correct in believing that you WILL need to log hours at 10,001lbs?

highway star · Feb 24, 2011

snowmojim said:
Am I correct in believing that you WILL need to log hours at 10,001lbs?

That's correct.

pkoelle · Sep 9, 2012

Turtle said:
The other driver is ignorant of the rules and regulations, and as is usually the case when someone is ignorant of the actual rules and regulations and their applicability, and instead are relying on flawed deductive reasoning, he is wrong.

The DOT FMCSA regulations apply to Commercial Motor Vehicles (CMV), not merely Commercial Vehicles (A.K.A. cargo vans engaged in commerce of any kind). The DOT defines quite specifically which vehicles come under its regulations.

Definitions. - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration
The only part of the definitions that apply to a cargo van is (4) when the van is placarded for HAZMAT. At all other times a cargo van, even one hauling general commodity, is not a Commercial Motor Vehicle.

The DOT FMCSA is about safety of the public, and they are only concerned about the weight of a vehicle and how dangerous it is, or about what a vehicle is hauling with respect to HAZMAT (which is inherently dangerous). The hauling of general freight (commodities or otherwise) is irrelevant to the safety of the public, which is why the DOT could care less about cargo vans (unless they are hauling placardable HAZMAT, of course, because it is at that point where the van becomes a danger to the public).

Ok I've been reading over this thread & I have a comfortable understanding of DOT cargo van regulations. I have a very specific question that falls under this subject & I need very specific information in response. Can a cargo van that carries freight pull a SMALL (such as 23') camper behind it? I would assume that the answer is yes & that it would fall under combination vehicle regulations...but i never assume. The only concern that i should have is GVW & axle weights. I have a class A CDL with over 10 years experience so I am plenty qualified to operate such a vehicle. I just need to know if it can legally be done.

xiggi · Sep 9, 2012

pkoelle said:
Ok I've been reading over this thread & I have a comfortable understanding of DOT cargo van regulations. I have a very specific question that falls under this subject & I need very specific information in response. Can a cargo van that carries freight pull a SMALL (such as 23') camper behind it? I would assume that the answer is yes & that it would fall under combination vehicle regulations...but i never assume. The only concern that i should have is GVW & axle weights. I have a class A CDL with over 10 years experience so I am plenty qualified to operate such a vehicle. I just need to know if it can legally be done.

You would have to log if it puts you over 10,000 lbs. If you're wanting to tow one while expediting, it has been discussed here many times. The general consensus is bad idea.

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