CNN and MSNBC stirring racial unrest in Ferguson, MO.

[muttly]

It's possible he might have been on something. Toxicology will tell more either way. Could be under the influence or could be just a young kid not thinking rationally. In the robbery video, he doesn't appear to be too concerned about the possible dangerous repercussion from the store clerk.( possible gun behind counter) He appeared to treat the clerk like he was just a nuisance. Curious if he displayed the same disregard toward the officer or feared being arrested for the robbery. Just speculation right now however until more facts come out in this case.

 

[cheri1122]

It will be interesting to see if the toxicology report on Brown is made public. Who wants to bet he was high on something - robbing a store and assaulting the clerk in the process, then strutting his stuff down the middle of the street immediately afterward. Sounds like he was afraid of getting arrested when the police approached him for the crime he had just committed, and his judgement might have been impaired if he did indeed attack the cop.

Also, just noticed that a curfew has been imposed in Ferguson, MO due to continued criminal activity.

Gov declares emergency, imposes curfew in Ferguson

Your speculation is altering the known facts to fit your agenda. The victim wasn't "approached for the crime he had just committed", he was approached by a patrolling cruiser and told to get out of the street and walk on the sidewalk. [Something Rand Paul admits would probably have merited a smartass response from himself as a teen, as well.]
Granted, there's a lot we don't know, but it's tough to imagine anything that fits with what we do know [and what the cop knew at the time] that would justify shooting an unarmed teenager as he ran away.
The overwhelming show of force by the police in response to peaceful protests tends to demonstrate that the citizens of Ferguson had reason to view police as 'the enemy', and that needs to change. Not because the professional 'organizers' of such discontent say so, but because it's not the kind of society we want to live in.
Even if your belief that the victim was not, in fact, an 'innocent' victim, [and that may well be correct], it doesn't change the fact that whatever he might have been guilty of wasn't justification for being shot down in the street.
I can't understand the looting, but I can understand the anger & frustration. Dismissing that because the victim wasn't someone you can admire, or relate to, will only make it worse.

 

[Turtle]

The release of the robbery video, against the strong objections of the FBI and the Department of Justice, was nothing more than deflection bait to try and convince people to give the police the benefit of the doubt with the "well, maybe he deserved it" mindset. It gets people talking about ridiculous things like the mindset of the dead guy and about toxicology reports, as if that's somehow more important, or even more relevant, than someone stopping in their tracks, raising their hands and saying, "Don't shoot! I'm unarmed," and then getting knocked to the ground by bullets, with one more for good measure added to his chest after he's laying laying there, just to make sure he was good and dead. But, but, but, even though the cop had no idea at the time, the dead guy is a suspect in a robbery. Not an armed robbery, mind you, but a strong arm robbery, because that's really bad, just as bad as an armed robbery, so he got what was coming to him. Hrmph. So there.

So, how many took the bait? Let's see a show of hands. Wow, that's more than I thought. That's a lot. You can put your hands down now.

Ferguson, MO has a long and rich history of white cops shooting and killing the mostly black citizens of the town, most of the shootings later being determined to be unjustified, and a county prosecutor with an equally long and rich history of either negotiating the charges of the shooters down to minor infractions or not even prosecuting the cases at all. The police in Ferguson have a tradition of white cops shooting black citizens and then refusing to release the names of the shooters, just like this time. The police also have a tradition of confrontation that sparks outrage and the natural tendency of people to strike back in defense, just like this time.

We see it here on EO all too often, where someone will post something confrontational towards someone, and the strike-back response to defend oneself is natural and predictable, and then it escalates. If you play it right you can poke and prod and provoke someone into doing something you want them to do, so that you can so what you want to do. The police really wanted that to happen during the Occupy Wall Street protests in NYC when they showed up in military fashion with riot gear and armored personnel carriers to deal with a calm and peaceful crowd. That crowd didn't take the bait, however, because tensions weren't all that high and the police couldn't manage to raise them sufficiently. The people saw right through it.

That wasn't the case in Ferguson, where tension have been running high for years. The protests were largely peaceful in Ferguson, right up until the Ferguson Military Police showed up to quell the unrest that they managed to incite by showing up and confronting the citizens and getting the predictable and desired response, enabling the police to use their newly acquired government cheese (which, incidentally, must be deployed within a year or they risk losing it, so these military toys end up getting used in situations they have no business be used).

 

[muttly]

To reiterate, there seems to be a lot of speculation at this point, and possible inaccurate conclusions drawn. In other words,being reeled in hook, line, and sinker. For those with it firmly planted in their inner check, a little clarification.
One being that Police officer Wilson had NO IDEA AT THE TIME that the victim was a robbery suspect.
The other relating to the perhaps sinister motive by the dept to release the video.
From article:
But Jackson told the Post-Dispatch that the officer, Darren Wilson, saw cigars in Brown's hand and realized he might be the robber.

Jackson also addressed concerns about his release of information about the robbery at the same time he released the name of the officer at a press conference Friday morning.

Jackson said he released the security video from the liquor store because news organizations had been requesting it under the Freedom of Information Act.

Asked by reporters why he released the tape, he said, "Because I had to. Too many people put in (freedom of information) requests for it."
http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/cr...5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html?mobile_touch=true

 

[layoutshooter]

Too many choices in my area.
My wife shops them all.

I was speaking of inner city areas, not the burbs.

 

[Pilgrim]

Your speculation is altering the known facts to fit your agenda.

That statement is patently absurd. I have no "agenda", and no "known facts" are altered in the post. However, I am speculating on what may have been the reason for the unusual behavior (getting into the unaltered "known facts") of this guy that had just stolen a box of cigars, physically assaulted a store clerk who tried to stop the theft and was walking in the middle of a public street with the stolen cigars in his hand. Maybe it's just me, but IMHO most communities would consider that kind of behavior not only unusual but also criminal. What makes it even more unusual is the known fact that the Ferguson Police had a history of harassing black residents, and he should have known that this kind of behavior would draw attention to him and make him even more likely to be stopped. So my two-part speculative question is this: why did he do something this stupid and could drugs have been a cause for his lapse in judgement? At this point nobody knows or just isn't saying. Somebody let me know if speculation is no longer allowed in this forum.

The victim wasn't "approached for the crime he had just committed", he was approached by a patrolling cruiser and told to get out of the street and walk on the sidewalk. [Something Rand Paul admits would probably have merited a smartass response from himself as a teen, as well.]
Granted, there's a lot we don't know, but it's tough to imagine anything that fits with what we do know [and what the cop knew at the time] that would justify shooting an unarmed teenager as he ran away.

Now there's an example of speculation and "altering the known facts". We don't know that he was shot as he was trying to run away. We do know there was a struggle in the police cruiser and at least one shot was fired inside the car before it spilled into the street. The investigation will likely reveal what actually happened during the confrontation, but if it turns out the officer was physically assaulted by Brown he was justified in responding with deadly force - especially if Brown was trying to take his weapon. On the other hand, if it's found that Brown was shot while trying to surrender the officer will wind up in federal prison. However, it's reasonable to speculate that even though the officer's original intent was stopping Brown to get him out of the street, it's likely that Brown thought he was getting busted for stealing the cigars. Here again, it would be nice to have some recording from the dash cam on the cop car - if it has one.

Finally, a couple of parting questions:

1. Has anyone seen or heard anything from the store clerk, or is he in witness protection by now? I noticed that the market from which the cigars were stolen was looted and trashed last night.

2. Did Brown have a facebook page or some other kind of presence on social media like Facebook? Haven't heard or seen a thing about that, but it would certainly offer some insight into his character.

 

[muttly]

It's unfortunate there isn't a dash cam video. All Police Depts. should have them in their cars. I also favor them using hat/body cams. It would be helpful to the investigation.
I haven't seen anything from the clerk, or the other patrons in the store, for that matter. They might have been told not to comment from the Police Dept. or maybe the DOJ. The DOJ didn't want the video released, so it's plausible they also didn't want any public comments from the robbery witnesses.
Regarding the use of body cams.
From article:
The police department in Mesa, Ariz., did a side-by-side study of 50 officers wearing cameras and 50 without. The results after eight months: officers with cameras were subject of 8 citizen complaints while those without had 23.
http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/body-c...-force-citizen-complaints-1408134549?mobile=y

 

[layoutshooter]

From what I have read the Ferguson cars were going to be fitted with cameras in the very near future.

 

[Pilgrim]

... someone stopping in their tracks, raising their hands and saying, "Don't shoot! I'm unarmed," and then getting knocked to the ground by bullets, with one more for good measure added to his chest after he's laying laying there, just to make sure he was good and dead.

Can you share your source for this information? It seems a bit odd that the victim would "get one more in the chest for good measure after he's laying there", considering he was laying face down. So far there doesn't seem to be any specific info released regarding his bullet wounds, other than that they were multiple.

That wasn't the case in Ferguson, where tension have been running high for years.

It seems odd that these tensions have been an issue for years, mainly because the black population is by far the majority but they are governed by white ELECTED officials. Wonder how many of these same protesters demanding justice got off their azzes and voted in the last few elections? Apparently not many, in spite of having a black POTUS elected and re-elected during the past six years.

Ferguson, Missouri, is 67 percent black, but only one of six council members is black and the mayor is white. So is the chief of police. This demographic discrepancy is one of the reasons the black community in the St. Louis suburb has felt misrepresented by its local government.

But how is that disparity possible? If two-thirds of the city is black, shouldn't there at least be more black council members?

The problem is low voter turnout

The problem, MSNBC reports, is low voter turnout. "No one collects data on turnout by race in municipal elections. But the overall turnout numbers for Ferguson's mayoral and city council election are discouraging," writes MSNBC's Zachary Roth. "This year, just 12.3 percent of eligible voters cast a ballot, according to numbers provided by the county. In 2013 and 2012, those figures were even lower: 11.7 percent and 8.9 percent respectively. As a rule, the lower the turnout, the more the electorate skews white and conservative."

https://news.yahoo.com/why-ferguson-government-white-221002329.html

Instead of burning and looting their own neighborhoods and neighbors' businesses, maybe they should turn their energies toward getting out the vote in the next election. Also, if they're so dissatisfied with their current elected officials they shouldn't have too much trouble finding some community organizers to help them with a recall campaign against the current officeholders they so distrust and hold in such contempt.

 

[layoutshooter]

"Community Organizer" is the "PC" term for "rabble-rouser". In other words, professional trouble makers.

 

[Ragman]

"Community Organizer" is the "PC" term for "rabble-rouser". In other words, professional trouble makers.

Just what is a rabble which gets roused in these situations?

 

[Turtle]

Can you share your source for this information? It seems a bit odd that the victim would "get one more in the chest for good measure after he's laying there", considering he was laying face down. So far there doesn't seem to be any specific info released regarding his bullet wounds, other than that they were multiple.

My apologies for being careless with my wording. The phrase "get one more in the chest for good measure after he's laying there" is nothing more than a synonym for "one more shot at point blank range after he'd fell to the ground." So, you can replace "in the chest" with "in the back" if you like.

It seems odd that these tensions have been an issue for years, mainly because the black population is by far the majority but they are governed by white ELECTED officials. Wonder how many of these same protesters demanding justice got off their azzes and voted in the last few elections? Apparently not many, in spite of having a black POTUS elected and re-elected during the past six years.

It's not at all uncommon for towns with large or majority black populations to be governed by all or mostly white elected officials and a white police force. It's practically SOP all across the south, though that is beginning to change somewhat. The police chief hasn't been chief there very long. He's a 30 year veteran of the St Louis Police Department, though. He's white, but one of the very first things he did after becoming chief there was contact the Justice Department on ways to increase the diversity in the department. Apparently it's a slow process.

In 2009, officers mistakenly arrested Henry Davis based on an outstanding warrant for another man with the same surname. While in custody, Davis was beaten by four officers. When they realized they had the wrong man, Davis was charged with "property damage" for bleeding on the officers' uniforms.

Here's a little of the history of the area, and why racial tensions finally snapped last week. New York Time article

 

[layoutshooter]

"one more shot at point blank range after he'd fell to the ground."

Are you using "point blank correctly or as the "free, unbiased, press" uses it?

I wonder how many know the difference? I wonder how many care? I wonder if the BS that most use is more important than the REAL meaning? Does anyone even KNOW the correct meaning of the term? It would be interesting to know how many really KNOW the meaning of that term.

(This was NOT meant as an "attack" on Turtle, PLEASE don't take it as such)

 

[layoutshooter]

HINT: There are TWO "Point Blanks" on "every shot".

Are you willing to KNOW the "reality" OR, are you "stuck" on the "crap"?

 

[Turtle]

"one more shot at point blank range after he'd fell to the ground."

Are you using "point blank correctly or as the "free, unbiased, press" uses it?

I'm using it in such a way so as to more easily allow others to focus on the munitiae rather than on what's important. Same way I used "chest" earlier, because whether he was shot in the chest or the back, is what's important, and whether or not the ballistic trajectory was affected is equally important.

Point blank range comes from the French pointe-blanc, which means aim at the white spot in the middle of the target. It's the distance in which a projectile fired should not require adjusting the elevation or the fixed sight in order to hit the target. It's point and click range where the shooter should not miss the target if that's what he was aiming at. It is in effect the "can't miss it" range. In forensics, it means extremely close range, usually less than 3 feet from the muzzle of the gun, but not actually making contact with the muzzle. I admit that I did not use it in the context of pointe-blanc, but used it in the forensics context of really, really close to the point where it's be hard to miss.

I wonder how many know the difference? I wonder how many care?

I don't know. For the purposes of this discussion, I certainly don't.

 

[layoutshooter]

I assume you know that there are TWO "point blanks"? THE points where line of sights cross the eye plane?

 

[Pilgrim]

My apologies for being careless with my wording. The phrase "get one more in the chest for good measure after he's laying there" is nothing more than a synonym for "one more shot at point blank range after he'd fell to the ground." So, you can replace "in the chest" with "in the back" if you like.

Apparently, all the wounds were frontal according to autopsy from hired expert Dr. Michael Baden.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/u...ge&WT.nav=lede-package&assetType=nyt_now&_r=0

 

[RLENT]

That statement is patently absurd. I have no "agenda" ...

BWHAHAHAHA !

Good to see that the EO Theater of The Absurd is still alive and kicking ...

I'll check back in another week ...

 

[RLENT]

"one more shot at point blank range after he'd fell to the ground."

Are you using "point blank correctly or as the "free, unbiased, press" uses it?

I wonder how many know the difference? I wonder how many care? ...

Other than you ?

Very few ...

 

[aristotle]

We do not have the facts about this case. Not surprisingly, eyewitness statements are already being discounted as either falsehoods or misperception of what actually transpired. Emotionalism is driving the narrative. Take away the national media who sensationalize and twist the words of people who weren't even present at the shooting. Have a cooling off period which allows for dispassionate study of evidence.

It is tragic a young man lost his life. Allow calm to be restored. Looting, hooliganism and disrespect for law and order only worsen the situation. For both, Michael Brown and the cop who shot him, a whole lot of things had to go wrong in just a matter of moments for Brown to end up dead.