CIA Workers Killed in Afghanistan as U.S. Steps Up Spying Role

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You are correct Wimpy007. Real life is almost always different than movies. Part of the problems we have in this country is that many people don't seem to be able to grasp that fact.

One of the other problems is just how easy we have had it as a country. Our military and intelligence services to such a good job, when they are allowed to do their job, that we seldom know just how dangerous the world is. 9/11 should have been a wake up call. Seems that many have forgotten, or worse yet, blame this country for the reasons for the attack. They don't believe that there are evil people out there in the real world.

Those of us who had the privilege to serve in an intelligence agency have a far more balanced view. While yours' and my experience is far from current we both know that some things have never changed. There were threats that we faced back then and just as many or more now. It is my opinion that todays threats are more dangerous than ours were.

It is a real shame that so much intell information must remain classified, for reasons that you and I both are well aware of. It would be really interesting to see what would happen to the attitudes of the "hand wringers" if they really knew what the real world is like.
 

wimpy007

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
US Army
Jaminjim, I'm 76 years old, my wife and I put 5 kids thru college, you don't do that working just one job, the years I was an Officer I drove a truck on my days off and vacation. We are still at it and we will keep at it as long as its fun and my health holds out.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Jaminjim, I'm 76 years old, my wife and I put 5 kids thru college, you don't do that working just one job, the years I was an Officer I drove a truck on my days off and vacation. We are still at it and we will keep at it as long as its fun and my health holds out.

You're an inspiration to us youngsters, wimpy007.
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Jaminjim, I'm 76 years old, my wife and I put 5 kids thru college, you don't do that working just one job, the years I was an Officer I drove a truck on my days off and vacation. We are still at it and we will keep at it as long as its fun and my health holds out.

See I told you I was too tired to figure it out;) thats why I asked.

As an added thought I hope you can get in another pile of years, keep on keepin on.
 
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wimpy007

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
US Army
I THANK YOU for the kind words, my wife and I will keep at it as long as the good Lord is willing to let us.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I too hope you are around for a long time to come as well. Keep in mind that my Dad, WWII combat vet is 87 and is still able to hunt deer. He can't walk as far now or hunt as many hours, but, he is now planning next years hunt, he will be 88 next deer season. Thank you for your service in the ASA, I know what it was like. You had it much harder than I did, I was not ever subjected to working at headquarters. NO "day strokes" for me!!

:eek:
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
The problems in the Intelligence community can all be traced back directly to the culture and attitude of Allan Dulles. Everything the Intelligence community does now is a consequence of his actions and the cultural foundation he laid.
Yup - and the Dulles brothers were both fantastically corrupt and were, in fact, criminals.

Therefore the attitude is, in a large measure, criminal - being above the law.

John Foster Dulles connections to Hitler and the Nazi regime are well documented (through the law firm of Sullivan & Cromwell, where he was a partner, and where is brother Allen also worked) - as are granddaddy Prescott Bush's (as a Director of Union Banking Corporation) and both benefited financially from said relationships. Some of the documentation relating to this was "classified" until as recently 2002, and the Dulles (either one or both of them) were involved in obscuring the connection, sending at least one investigator on a wild goose chase, away from where the documentation (of their criminality) lay. I believe that at least one person (possibly more, although I would have to recheck) involved in investigating these links turned up dead under what could be described as somewhat mysterious circumstances.

Allen Dulles was responsible for creating MK-Ultra - the secret mind-control program of the CIA (and the Department of Defense), which involved experimentation on American civilians with psychotropic drugs (including LSD, heroin, morphine, mescaline, psilocybin, scopolamine, marijuana, alcohol, and sodium pentathol), and were often conducted without the subjects' knowledge or consent (in violation of the Nuremburg Code, established by United States Military Tribunal)

These experiments resulted in at least two known deaths (one civilian, one military) and may have ultimately created the individual we now know as the Unabomber - Theodore Kaczynski. Additionally, the popularization of the hippie drug culture in our society might be partly traced to the fact that Ken Kesey (a Merry Prankster) volunteered to participate in MK-Ultra and take LSD - and then went on to become a heavy advocate of it's use.

Knowing the complete extent of criminality involved with MK-Ultra was complicated by the fact that CIA Director Richard Helms ordered all MK-ULTRA files destroyed in 1973.

There is an (arguable) case for the Rev. Jim Jones/Jonestown Tragedy to have been an MK-Ultra experiment, as there is some evidence of US government connections. Jonestown was where Congressman Leo Ryan, a CIA critic, was assassinated.

Allen Dulles personally oversaw Operation Mockingbird - which was a subversion of the free press in America, and which involved spying on American citizens (telephone taps on at least two Washington-based news reporters), and Operation 40 - which was involved in sabotage operations but also had evolved into a team of assassins - which included Porter Goss (who was later to serve as CIA Director, under Bush the younger), Frank Sturgis - one of the Watergate burglars, Luis Posada Carriles, who is currently wanted in Venezuela for his key role in the execution of the 1976 Cubana Flight 455 bombing, and Orlando Bosch (founder of the counterrevolutionary Coordination of United Revolutionary Organizations, CORU), which organized the 1976 murder of Chilean former minister Orlando Letelier. Operation 40 may have been involved in the 4 March 1960 bombing of the Belgian flagged ship La Coubre (claimed by Fabian Escalante, G2), and it is estimated that the explosions killed 75 people and injured over 200.

And it was on Dulles' watch that Operation AJAX occurred (deposing popularly-elected Iranian Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh in 1953), and Operation PBSUCCESS - the overthrow of popularly-elected Jacobo Árbenz Guzmán, who assumed the Guatemalan presidency, marking the first peaceful transition of power in Guatemala's history, after Guatemala's second-ever universal-suffrage election.

United Fruit Company (a criminal enterprise) was the largest Guatemalan landowner and employer, and Árbenz's government's land reforms would have included the (compensated) expropriation of 40% of United Fruit Company's landholdings (uncultivated portions only) John Foster Dulles' law firm of Sullivan and Cromwell had represented United Fruit and Allen Dulles was a board member of United Fruit at the time. The actions of United Fruit in Central America single-handedly resulted in a new term being introduced into the political lexicon: "Banana republic" - a corrupt government which is a servile dictatorship (of corporate interests)

Another aspect of the Guatemalan coup was Operation WASHTUB, a CIA covert op which planted a phony Soviet arms cache in Nicaragua to "demonstrate" Guatemalan ties to Moscow.

Later, in an effort to do a "CYA", the CIA launched Operation PBHISTORY, which aimed to document government ties to the Soviets and communist involvement (the false pretext used to justify the coup against Árbenz) The group examined 500,000 documents and came up with over 50,000 documents - ostensibly for the purpose of exploiting and illustrating communist activities within Guatemala. The documents were later examined by an extra-Agency researcher, Ronald M. Schneider, who found no traces of Soviet control and substantial evidence that Guatemalan Communists acted alone, without support or guidance from outside the country.

Each of the operations above is a complete story unto itself, often with many more stories branching out from them.
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I still find it amazing that in a country where everyone is innocent until proven guilty that intell agents, all whom have passed stringent back ground check and polygraphs are still demonized by a bunch of arm chair Monday morning quarterbacks.

I say again, until you have walked a mile in my shoes all you have done is read some books.

I saw the same thing when I was in college, it was just one of many reasons that I never finished. I would take a class. Some goober would stand up and pontificate about this and that. I would ask him/her/it a plain old yes/no question. "Have you ever worked in the field you are teaching?" They would him and haw, say stupid things like "teaching it is working in it" or similar things. Most never answered and when they did, to a man/woman/thing, the answer was no. Nothing but a bunch of professional book readers and students, not able to function outside of a school building.

Them's who do the least shout foul the loudest. Of course they have never been there. So in reality, just second hand stuff.

Yeah I know, you have more background that those of us who were there and I have no idea about what I did, how I did it, why I did it, or who with. I am amazed how little I know about what I did for 20 years. I guess I should read some books about it.

What do you think Wimpy007? Think we need to read some books to figure out what we did?
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
You are correct Wimpy007. Real life is almost always different than movies. Part of the problems we have in this country is that many people don't seem to be able to grasp that fact.
Yeah, well ..... it weren't me that was quoting lame drivel from some stale box office attraction .....

Seems that many have forgotten, or worse yet, blame this country for the reasons for the attack.
And worse still by far, is the delusion of some that the actions this country takes (both rightly and wrongly) have no consequences - simply because such people are incapable of discerning cause and effect - such people are dangerous to this country almost beyond the ability of the mind to imagine.

There is a term - blowback - are you at all even familiar with it ?

Blowback Definition

"Blowback" is a CIA term first used in March 1954 in a recently declassified report on the 1953 operation to overthrow the government of Mohammed Mossadegh in Iran. It is a metaphor for the unintended consequences of the US government's international activities that have been kept secret from the American people. The CIA's fears that there might ultimately be some blowback from its egregious interference in the affairs of Iran were well founded. Installing the Shah in power brought twenty-five years of tyranny and repression to the Iranian people and elicited the Ayatollah Khomeini's revolution. The staff of the American embassy in Teheran was held hostage for more than a year. This misguided "covert operation" of the US government helped convince many capable people throughout the Islamic world that the United States was an implacable enemy." - Chalmers Johnson, former consultant to the CIA, in The Nation

"Johnson sees that the enforcement of American hegemony over the world constitutes a new form of global empire. Whereas traditional empires maintained control over subject peoples via colonies, since World War II the US has developed a vast system of hundreds of military bases around the world where it has strategic interests. A long-time Cold Warrior he applauded the collapse of the Soviet Union, "I was a cold warrior. There's no doubt about that. I believed the Soviet Union was a genuine menace. I still think so."

"But at the same time he experienced a political awakening after the USSR 1989 collapse, noting that instead of demobilizing its armed forces, the US accelerated its reliance on military solutions to problems both economic and political. The result of this militarism (as distinct from actual domestic defense) is more terrorism against the US and its allies, the loss of core democratic values at home, and an eventual disaster for the American economy.


Any of that last little bit sound even a little remotely familiar to you ? If not, open your eyes and look around.

You might want to consider reading his books:

Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire

The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic

Nemesis: The Last Days of the American Republic.


There are, fortunately, at least some that "get it" (although it is debatable to what extent):

In testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee April 10, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates made the following jaw-dropping statement:

“We were attacked from Afghanistan in 2001 and we are at war in Afganistan today in no small measure because of mistakes this government made — mistakes I, among others, made in the end game of the anti-Soviet war there some 20 years ago. If we get the end game wrong in Iraq I predict the consequences will be far worse.”

They don't believe that there are evil people out there in the real world.
Oh - I certainly believe it - I just don't happen to buy into the premise that some, who just because they wave the flag, cannot also be evil. History has repeatedly demonstrated that premise to false.

It is a real shame that so much intell information must remain classified, for reasons that you and I both are well aware of. It would be really interesting to see what would happen to the attitudes of the "hand wringers" if they really knew what the real world is like.
What an utterly smarmy, arrogant attitude .....

What would really be interesting is to see what kind of country we would be, if not for the machinations of corrupt men in high places, and the criminal actions of their minions .....
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Know what a "egg sucking kerr dog is?" I got more use for one of them that some people in this country. Like Clinton that "loathed" what I did. High praise for a criminal. Or Obama, that stood on the floor of the Senate and told bald face LIES about my son and nephew. Both of the are book smart, street fools and hate this nation and what is stands for. They never did a real thing in this world either.

I am glad however just how much you enjoy your new found sport, firing up the idiot who did his duty. Must be very rewarding for you.

I love it, I had to become an expediter to find out that I was a criminal for 20 years.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Them's who do the least shout foul the loudest.

Oh, the irony - priceless!!!

I admit to knowing very little about foreign affairs or military intelligence, but I'll say this: RELENT's reasoned facts are far more persuasive than any defensive sarcasm will ever be.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Geez, I hope the new Congress we elect in November sees fit to triple the CIA's budget and double their staff immediately. How to pay for this? Send the bill directly to the Democratic National Committee and let the Liberals pay for the damage they have done to our nation's intelligence community. We are spread too thin and too disengaged. America should be heavily involved in every nation's business until they all can sing our national anthem in their sleep.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Your right too Cherii, his reasoned second hand facts are worth far more than my 20 years of really (that is not shouting you told me so) doing something.
Of course I have never seen anyone in here quote Tom, Zazolka, or Joe Amato, or Rich Pea****, or Tom Taylor. Their books never sold for two reasons, one, they were not tell all how bad the intell agents are books, two they all died before they could every write their story. What a shame, I bet they would love to know what American's think of their work. I would be willing to be that if they knew the crap they would get from a bunch of second hand roses that they might not have gone into that field, died very young serving a bunch of ingrates.

Yep, it is personal, how dare anyone call me a criminal and back something like Obama who really is one.
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Layout said:
Yep, it is personal, how dare anyone call me a criminal and back something like Obama who really is one.

I missed it and am to lazy to go back 90 posts. Where did anyone call you a criminal?

And while I'm at it what did Obama call your son?
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
A simple question for Liberals: With whom does your sympathy lie... A) Johnny Mike Spann
B) John Walker Lindh
C) both A and B
D) neither A nor B
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
All intell agents are agents of the devil. All intelligence agencies are the cause of our problems in the world.

Obama stood on the floor of the Senate and compared U.S. soldiers to terrorists, my son and nephew were in country at the time, both were U.S soldiers, both decorated for bravery. I know what they thought about that speech. Takes a lot of moxy for a worthless wimp like Obama who did not have the stones to put his useless life on the line to diminish those who he wanted to lead as Commander in Chief. How would you like to put your life on the line when you boss has no use for you or what you do?

On a side note, I noticed the "cav" on your posts? What "cav" unit were you with? (this is not meant to be a smart butt, just asking, nothing more)
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
On a side note, I noticed the "cav" on your posts? What "cav" unit were you with? (this is not meant to be a smart butt, just asking, nothing more)

1st. Cav Division 4/7 Armored Cav. Ft. Hoodhttp://www.seeklogo.com/images/1/1st_Cav-logo-079192FB7B-seeklogo.com.gif



2nd Infantry Division 1/7 Armored Cav. Gary Owen (Custers) South Korea Camp Gary Owen. Our mission was to provide Overwatch while the guys would try to get back over the bridge from Panmunjom (joint Security area) Have a couple of real good stories from up around and in the DMZ

8th Infantry Division 3/8 Armored Cav. Germany Coleman Barracks Spent three long years there, about the only real thing we did was to relieve 11th. ACR a couple of times a year and patrolled the border in the Fulda Gap. (got a couple of fun stories while doing that little crap)
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Thanks for telling me that, I am sorry to say that I did not recognize your patch. It would be fun to meet up sometime, share a few "adult beverages" and tell lies all night!!


I was with the Army Security Agency, as you already know. After basic I did a 10 month school at Ft. Devens, MA. Then off to Misawa, Japan for an 18 month tour and finished up at Homestead AFB, Homestead, FL. Did not do anything "cool". My work was rather boring, needed, but boring. Hard on the ears though.
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Layout said
Thanks for telling me that, I am sorry to say that I did not recognize your patch. It would be fun to meet up sometime, share a few "adult beverages" and tell lies all night!!

I'm always ready for a cold one and a pizza. Let me know when you get this way (Dayton area)
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I'm always ready for a cold one and a pizza. Let me know when you get this way (Dayton area)[/QUOTE]

Sounds good to me!!
 
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