Buckeyes Riot Burn Destroy Property, Not A Thug In Sight

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
Check mate.
Not even close. You have to remember that Muttly doesn't really understand the process and he's just Googling for stuff that fits what he believes. As the article he linked to states at the top, "Prosecutors use grand juries to indict people, not to clear them of wrongdoing. Nevertheless, they sometimes have to present evidence suggesting innocence."

The key there is "sometimes," and it's rather rare. The paragraph headings of "Minority Approach: No Duty to Help the Defendant" and "Majority View: Exculpatory Evidence is a Must" are not how it's done in a minority and majority of the states or cases, but "Minority Approach" and "Majority View" are legal philosophies having nothing to do with actual numbers or ratios.

A prosecutor can't knowingly prosecute or call for an indictment of someone whom the prosecutor knows to be innocent. That's true in every state. It's prosecutorial misconduct if that happens. But the key there is, as is also stated in that article, the exculpatory evidence must be strong, credible evidence of innocence. Not just evidence that casts doubt or tends to indicate evidence, but rather something that's a no-doubter, or, as the it is used in law, "substantial exculpatory evidence." Of course, in the case of no-doubt innocence, the case wouldn't be presented to the grand jury in the first place.

The article says "in many states" the prosecutor must present evidence to the grand jury that is helpful to the accused. "Many" is rather vague, but what it actually refers to are the states that have something called Grand Jury Presentment, where the grand jury can make certain requests, including requesting that a particular case be presented to them even if the prosecutor hadn't planned on it, and in states where the pretrial hearing process is sometimes held prior to the grand jury proceeding. If Presentment doesn't happen, or there is not a pretrial hearing prior to the grand jury hearing the case, then exculpatory evidence doesn't need to be presented. The prosecution must present exculpatory evidence at a pretrial hearing, and he must also present all pretrial evidence to a grand jury, so it would include the exculpatory evidence. The reason for that is, if the pretrial hearing doesn't result in charges being filed, because the judge doesn't think there is probable cause, the prosecutor can't then go to the grand jury and present half a case to get his indictment. (it's the same as putting down that you have injectable insulin diabetes on your long form at DOT physical and getting disqualified, and then going to another doctor and failing to mention you have diabetes in order to get your medical card)

That article, incidentally, was written by a criminal defense attorney who thinks everyone is innocent and everything humanly possible should be done in their favor during the entire criminal prosecution process. She co-authored the famous Gitmo report which recommended against military tribunals and that all Gitmo prisoners either be immediately be charged and tried in a stateside US criminal court, or summarily released.

The thing is, there are no state laws that I've ever been able to find, other than the State Bar's Rules of Ethics that deals with substantial evidence, that say a prosecutor must present exculpatory evidence to a grand jury. I sat on one for 4 months and learned that very thing.

But to address any doubt about this issue, there are two US Supreme Court decisions that address this very issue specifically and explicitly (actually, there are several, but most of them only address, and are applicable in, federal court). One is United States v. Page, 1987, which held that the evidence withheld from the grand jury must be substantial and "clearly exculpatory" for there to be cause to overturn an indictment. But even then, if the exculpatory evidence came out at trial, it wouldn't be cause to overturn the indictment, regardless of the trial verdict.

And the other is the 6-3 decision of United States v. Williams, 1992, unambiguously found the lower court (in this case a US district court) "may not dismiss an otherwise valid indictment because the Government failed to disclose to the grand jury "substantial exculpatory evidence" in its possession. Pp. 9-19."

Also, the lower court's "rule would neither preserve nor enhance the traditional functioning of the grand jury that the "common law" of the Fifth Amendment demands. To the contrary, requiring the prosecutor to present exculpatory as well as inculpatory evidence would alter the grand jury's historical role, transforming it from an accusatory body that sits to assess whether there is adequate basis for bringing a criminal charge into an adjudicatory body that sits to determine guilt or innocence. Because it has always been thought sufficient for the grand jury to hear only the prosecutor's side, and, consequently that the suspect has no right to present, and the grand jury no obligation to consider, exculpatory evidence, it would be incompatible with the traditional system to impose upon the prosecutor a legal obligation to present such evidence. Moreover, motions to quash indictments based upon the sufficiency of the evidence relied upon by the grand jury have never been allowed, and it would make little sense to abstain from reviewing the evidentiary support for the grand jury's judgment while scrutinizing the sufficiency of the prosecutor's presentation."

Further, Justice Scalia wrote in the majority opinion of US v. Williams:
"It is the grand jury’s function not ‘to enquire … upon what foundation [the charge may be] denied,’ or otherwise to try the suspect’s defenses, but only to examine ‘upon what foundation [the charge] is made’ by the prosecutor. Respublica v. Shaffer, 1 Dall. 236 (O. T. Phila. 1788); see also F. Wharton, Criminal Pleading and Practice § 360, pp. 248-249 (8th ed. 1880). As a consequence, neither in this country nor in England has the suspect under investigation by the grand jury ever been thought to have a right to testify or to have exculpatory evidence presented." {bold emphasis mine}

So, basically, the court ruled that the prosecutor did not fail to present what was categorized as "substantial exculpatory evidence" and moreover he really didn't have to regardless. The 3 dissenting justices, Stevens, Blackmun and O'Connor, felt the evidence withheld by the prosecutor met the threshold of "substantial" and therefore should have been presented to the grand jury.

So no, not checkmate, not at all. I swear some of you people think I just make this stuff up and that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Incidentally, in reading what Scalia and the ruling says about the role of the grand jury, it's very, very interesting to see what McCulloch told the grand jury in the Ferguson case by comparison:

"And you must find probable cause to believe that Darren Wilson did not act in lawful self-defense and you must find probable cause to believe that Darren Wilson did not use lawful force in making an arrest. If you find those things, which is kind of like finding a negative, you cannot return an indictment on anything or true bill unless you find both of those things. Because both are complete defenses to any offense and they both have been raised in his, in the evidence."

Holy crap.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
The "(which could just be rumor)" was related and confirmed independently by three different state and three different local officials who witnessed it, including a State Senator and a St Louis Alderman.

Do you have a link for this? I know the Huffpost mentioned that those people relayed the story but were not witnesses to it.

So instead of keeping up with the case as it happened and examining information with impartial scrutiny and skepticism, it appears you had your mind made up early on what happened, seized upon tidbits that satisfied you, and are now Googling for information to support that position.

You made claims that weren't true so I wanted to make sure that I had the correct information rather than just repeating that I was right. Your problem with fact checking is what? FYI the memorial treatment was not part of the case as it had nothing to do with the shooting.

Please don't tell me that you actually believe that a picture of the undamaged memorial is somehow proof that it wasn't later damaged.

Your claim was that it happened right after which I demonstrated to you was completely wrong. Yes the memorial was hit later but not by a cop car, looks like you have things confused.

The links below show video of the trashed memorial, and it's rebuilding. The also speak, in the words of the police, of the attitude of the police about the memorial.
Ferguson Suspends Officer Who Called Michael Brown Memorial 'Trash' - NBC News

Michael Brown memorial destroyed overnight - The Washington Post

Yes the officer in question responded in a completely unprofessional manner and he was dealt with. There was really no point in mentioning this though because as I stated before the cops didn't run it over but they did question why The Washington Post was calling about the investigation into it.

I take it then that you've never been a grand juror? While the physical evidence supported Wilson's version of events, it also supported Johnson's version of events.

I already stated that Johnson would be a completely unreliable witness. He was brought up to testify though so the grand jury heard his version of events and apparently thought that he was unreliable as well.

Don't forget the grand jury was steered by the prosecution towards no indictment. In McCulloch's press conference he strongly implied the jury as a whole was united on its decision not to indict (9 white, 3 black, you need 9 to indict), but one juror has filed a lawsuit (and others have since signed on) to restore their First Amendment rights in removing the lifetime gag order preventing them from talking about the case and how things were presented. The suit names McCulloch specifically as not accurately depicting their views.

Well when we hear what they have to say it might help clear up a few small things like who they thought was credible but they were the ones that saw all of the evidence and heard the testimony. After all of that they decided not to indict the officer so the rest is really not that important unless they are going to say that they voted to indict him but were not allowed to.

No, he was the target defendant of a grand jury investigation. Any attack would not have been impossible if Wilson had not stopped and confronted Brown. Because there is no trial, we'll never know if that confrontation was a normal respectful one between police and citizen, and Brown launched an unprovoked attack, or if Wilson confronted Brown in a manner that provoked and escalated it.

So a police officer should just let criminals go then out of fear that they might have a fight with them?

The use of the word "criminal" seems a little prejudicial since Johnson hasn't been convicted of anything. But, yes, if the officer used cuss words, it changes a lot. Officers cussing at people under the color of authority is inflammatory and provocative. Ever been cussed out? It's not the same as not being cussed out. Wilson admitted in grand jury testimony to using the F-word several times during his exchange with Brown which shows an ease of use with the word. Except when he initially encountered Brown, where Wilson's language, according to Wilson, was practically that of an angel. More likely, Johnson's account of the initial contact by Wilson is the more accurate.

It doesn't matter in the overall picture because if he used the F word it still wouldn't give Brown the right to attack. It could mean that the officer is rude or even unprofessional but it just doesn't matter.

No, this was in the middle of the scuffle, after Brown had already hit Wilson.

Right but the initial scuffle stopped at some point and there must have been some type of break for Wilson to get out of the car. You'll see things like that happen in fight videos where an initial altercation takes place but then they separate and will do things like take their shirt or hat off.

Yeah, like I said, he didn't want to make the call and be on the hook for it, so he staged a grand jury proceeding, in an unprecedented fashion, to shift blame to the grand jury for the decision not to indict. And did so by steering the jurors to the decision.

So blame the people that forced this to go through.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
The road was already blocked off to traffic by the police and had not yet been reopened, so the only vehicles on that road were police vehicles.

So you're saying that the street was closed from August 9th through Christmas when the memorial was hit by a car?
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Not even close. You have to remember that Muttly doesn't really understand the process and he's just Googling for stuff that fits what he believes. As the article he linked to states at the top, "Prosecutors use grand juries to indict people, not to clear them of wrongdoing. Nevertheless, they sometimes have to present evidence suggesting innocence."

So that whole post was necessary instead of just saying that you were wrong? There really is no point in debating this with you because you act like you are the all knowing expert on everything Michael Brown and bash someone for Googling links to provide clear proof that you are wrong instead of just admitting it. If someone just said that you are wrong on something you would demand proof or stick to your opinion and claim it is caveman simple. Now you have been given proof that things aren't as you claimed but still don't want to just say that you fell for the propaganda or that you were wrong.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
In the Washington Post link it shows a passenger car parked on the road by the memorial site.
 

Turtle

Administrator
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Retired Expediter
So that whole post was necessary instead of just saying that you were wrong? There really is no point in debating this with you because you act like you are the all knowing expert on everything Michael Brown and bash someone for Googling links to provide clear proof that you are wrong instead of just admitting it. If someone just said that you are wrong on something you would demand proof or stick to your opinion and claim it is caveman simple. Now you have been given proof that things aren't as you claimed but still don't want to just say that you fell for the propaganda or that you were wrong.
I'm not wrong. Neither is Justice Scalia.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Don't forget, he's never met a case of police wrongdoing he wanted to prosecute.

Did you want to stand by this completely incorrect statement as well? I can tell you that it didn't take long to find out that you were completely wrong and a simple search will confirm it. I would provide a link but then you would just complain that I looked up the information and didn't just somehow know it. You have been wrong and have confused multiple things involving this case. I guess you should try Google instead of just assuming that the propaganda is right.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Did you want to stand by this completely incorrect statement as well? I can tell you that it didn't take long to find out that you were completely wrong and a simple search will confirm it. I would provide a link but then you would just complain that I looked up the information and didn't just somehow know it. You have been wrong and have confused multiple things involving this case. I guess you should try Google instead of just assuming that the propaganda is right.
Yes, I will stand by that statement, because it's not "completely incorrect." For one, it's not, nor was it intended to be, a statement of fact. It was sarcasm intended to make a point. Two, whether he prosecuted a case or not is no indication as to whether he "wanted to" or whether he was 'required to" prosecute it, so it's not "completely" wrong in any case.

I'm not sure why you want to pick nits, instead of having a debate or a conversation, but knowing your views on certain things, be it Ferguson or Katrina, or others things you've said, I'm not likely to play the game you want to play. So knock yourself out.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
I'm not wrong. Neither is Justice Scalia.

Yeah well since this wasn't a federal grand jury what Scalia says pertaining to the Williams case really doesn't apply on a state level or to this case. That's why some states say that exculpatory evidence does need to be presented to a grand jury. It's not caveman simple as you claim and you appear to be confusing information, again.
 

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
Yeah well since this wasn't a federal grand jury what Scalia says pertaining to the Williams case really doesn't apply on a state level or to this case. That's why some states say that exculpatory evidence does need to be presented to a grand jury. It's not caveman simple as you claim and you appear to be confusing information, again.
There are several SCOTUS cases in grand juries which apply only to federal courts, which I noted, but the Williams case, and the Page case are not among them. They apply in fundamental parts to state courts, as well, since those cases originated in state courts and then moved up to federal circuit courts. That's why Williams (and Page) is an important case at the state level. Half the grand jury orientation we had was on stuff just like this, how the process works, what can and cannot be presented, and why. The only time exculpatory evidence MUST be presented to a grand jury in state court is when that evidence has already been presented at a pretrial hearing (or filed with the judge in an affidavit of cause), or when the exculpatory evidence is substantial.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter

The second one confirms what I said about him prosecuting cops. It also mentions that he declined to prosecute someone based on statements from a few cops. It seems that he doesn't always run things in a traditional matter so the Brown case is just another example. The more info that is brought up the more it seems like he tossed all the evidence that he had out there because he knew that he shouldn't indict the officer. His job is to go after cases that he feels can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a jury trial. If people wouldn't have tried to push this and react emotionally there might be a chance for more information to come forward and witnesses to be looked into.

The best witness that the prosecutor had was Johnson who is a criminal, and yes despite what you said earlier he is a criminal and has a record which includes lying to the police. He also had some really ridiculous claims like Wilson opened the door into both Brown and Johnson so hard that it almost knocked the wind out of him but also said that the door barely tapped him. Then there is the claim that the door was opened so hard that it bounced off of them and closed. Really? Does that even seem plausible to you? Keep in mind that Johnson has said that the door was only open 1" in one interview and 2 or 3 inches in another so obviously it just didn't happen the way he claimed. Or how about Johnson's claim that Brown isn't aggressive but yet he just had a physical altercation with the store owner and somehow Officer Wilson was injured. Then of course the constant claim that he saw Wilson shoot Brown in the back even though it never happened.

One thing you might really like to watch is this video of Johnson where he contradicts himself and says things like we had no idea why the officer would even be trying to stop us. You might also be interested to hear Johnson mention the Cigarillos. Do you remember your whole tangent about Wilson's claim that Brown handed them to Johnson and said hold these and how there is no way that ever happened? Guess who says that is exactly what happened in this interview.

Interview of Dorian Johnson (with Mike Brown duri…: http://youtu.be/4-wlDI6hg18
 
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paullud

Veteran Expediter
Yes, I will stand by that statement, because it's not "completely incorrect." For one, it's not, nor was it intended to be, a statement of fact. It was sarcasm intended to make a point. Two, whether he prosecuted a case or not is no indication as to whether he "wanted to" or whether he was 'required to" prosecute it, so it's not "completely" wrong in any case.

LOL! I missed this gem before. So when you made the statement below was it not a statement of fact that was mirrored by the statement you just tried to squirm out of?

backing of the police union and and who has never, ever, not even once prosecuted a law-enforcement officer for excessive force or police misconduct, much less a police shooting,

I'm not sure why you want to pick nits, instead of having a debate or a conversation, but knowing your views on certain things, be it Ferguson or Katrina, or others things you've said, I'm not likely to play the game you want to play. So knock yourself out.

Really? After you jumped on people for not being familiar with every last detail? The things that you have been shown to be wrong on were not nit picking because you were using it as a basis of your argument. Now that you have been proven wrong on important things we suddenly shouldn't be proving that you're wrong. Weird, since that's part of debating. How do my views on Katrina or "other things" I've said even apply here?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yes, some of Johnson's claims sound implausible, and yes, some of his contradictions are a problem. But then again, the same exact thing can be said about Wilson's claims and contradictions. I'm not giving either one a pass, not taking either one at face value, I want a trial so that it all gets sorted out.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of any crimes for which Johnson has been convicted. I'm aware of charges and allegations, but that's not really the same, is it? The fact that he has a "record" is meaningless unless you specify what kind of record. If it's a "criminal record" then he's been convicted of a crime. If he's just been arrested, that's different. It's real easy to get arrested (or to have someone else arrested). I know. Back in the early 90s I had a former employer who was, and still is, half crazy and a petty, vindictive man. He made up stuff about me and filed a criminal complaint, which resulted in me being arrested. So I have a record. The fact that the judge took one look at the case and dismissed with prejudice all 13 counts of the Class D Felony charges (with prejudice which means the charges cannot even be filed again because it is in effect the same as a not guilty double jeopardy ruling) didn't remove the arrest from my record. Many years later I had some 'splainin' to do the first time I crossed the border, and even more 'splainin' to do when it came time to get a FAST card. I had to go back to the court clerk and get a letter showing the disposition of the case and why it was dismissed. The judge later offered to expunge the arrest record, which he did, but all that did is amend my record to show I have an arrest that was expunged.

And yes, McCulloch has never once prosecuted a law enforcement officer for "excessive force" or for "police misconduct" which that link confirms. He's prosecuted cops for other stuff, like child molestation, statutory sodomy, stealing and corruption, but not those. He's now brought 6 cases before a grand jury on police fatal shootings, not one of which has resulted in an indictment.

You state that I've been "proven wrong on important things" which is not true. I'm not really sure why it's so important to you that you catch me on something and prove me wrong, but it sure seems like you have a racial bias here, which follows the pattern of some comments you have made in the past. You've viewed Wilson's and McCulloch's (who happen to be white) actions and statements in such a manner as to either give them a complete pass on things and not question them, or dismiss things outright as being unimportant, and have viewed everything they have said and done in the best possible light, while doing the exact opposite for Brown, Johnson and others (who happen to be black). You think it's perfectly fine if a cop cusses at a black citizen, even if it's to provoke the citizen and escalates things to violence. You call black people criminals even when they've never been convicted of anything. You don't care if there are conflicting eyewitness testimony, because the only credible testimony is that which agrees with the officer, and the incredible evidence is that which does not, and that's the important thing. You think Johnson isn't a credible witness because he had a motive to lie, but you think Wilson is credible even though he also had the same CYA motive to lie. You think Wilson is telling the truth because the physical evidence supports Wilson't story, yet completely dismiss the fact that the physical evidence also supports Johnson's story. You also think Wilson's own conflicting testimony is nothing to be concerned about. And you think nothing was wrong with how the grand jury process was handled, because it's the end result that matters. Real or imagined, that's my take on it, because I'm going by what you've said, and the things you've addressed, and dismissed as unimportant, to make your points.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of any crimes for which Johnson has been convicted. I'm aware of charges and allegations, but that's not really the same, is it?

From the St Louis Post-Dispatch:
" During the summer after his first semester at Lincoln, Johnson was charged with a misdemeanor after giving police a false first name after he was arrested on suspicion of theft. He later pleaded guilty."

The warrant that was issued was because he never went back to handle the theft charge he had.

From Dorian Johnson's grand jury testimony:
"Regardless of everybody's opinion of me, I know a lot of speculation of my past and criminal record that I have or anything like that"

So should we just take your claim that he has no criminal record as the truth vs people that actually looked into it and Johnson's own testimony that he has a criminal record?

And yes, McCulloch has never once prosecuted a law enforcement officer for "excessive force" or for "police misconduct" which that link confirms.

Well that's where you would be wrong, again. I found this one which was really easy because it was relatively recent.
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/07/25/st-louis-county-police-officer-charged/

You state that I've been "proven wrong on important things" which is not true.

You have been proven wrong on your claims of things that were contributing factors of the riots, which is what the thread topic was about as well as your claims of just how prejudice the prosecutor is and details about the case. You use examples of completely incorrect things to say that I am prejudice so that you can dismiss what I say and justify sticking to your opinion no matter what. All of that is very important.

I'm not really sure why it's so important to you that you catch me on something and prove me wrong, but it sure seems like you have a racial bias here, which follows the pattern of some comments you have made in the past.

That's just laughable coming from the guy that will seize any little opportunity they can to jump on anything wrong that they can find and go on a massive cut and paste mission to prove just how wrong that person is. What have I said here that shows a racial bias? What pattern of comments?

You've viewed Wilson's and McCulloch's (who happen to be white) actions and statements in such a manner as to either give them a complete pass on things and not question them, or dismiss things outright as being unimportant, and have viewed everything they have said and done in the best possible light, while doing the exact opposite for Brown, Johnson and others (who happen to be black).

Is there anything else that you would like to just completely make up?

You think it's perfectly fine if a cop cusses at a black citizen, even if it's to provoke the citizen and escalates things to violence.

It's unprofessional and not perfectly fine but I did say that cursing is not a reason to attack the officer which seems pretty obvious to everyone, well except you apparently.

You call black people criminals even when they've never been convicted of anything.

When did I do this? You are just making crap up at this point to fulfill your biased opinion.

You don't care if there are conflicting eyewitness testimony, because the only credible testimony is that which agrees with the officer, and the incredible evidence is that which does not, and that's the important thing.

I do care and that's why I said that there needed to be an investigation and we needed to see the evidence rather than just getting emotional and pushing for immediate indictment.

You think Johnson isn't a credible witness because he had a motive to lie, but you think Wilson is credible even though he also had the same CYA motive to lie. You think Wilson is telling the truth because the physical evidence supports Wilson't story, yet completely dismiss the fact that the physical evidence also supports Johnson's story. You also think Wilson's own conflicting testimony is nothing to be concerned about.

So previously saying outright that I wasn't taking the officer's testimony at face value because he had a reason to lie meant what to you?

And you think nothing was wrong with how the grand jury process was handled, because it's the end result that matters. Real or imagined, that's my take on it, because I'm going by what you've said, and the things you've addressed, and dismissed as unimportant, to make your points.

I have said that he didn't push hard for an indictment because he never felt like it was a case that was winnable but only did so due to political pressure. It's interesting how you have ignored multiple things that I have said and then claim the exact opposite to make it fit your biased opinion.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
From the St Louis Post-Dispatch:
" During the summer after his first semester at Lincoln, Johnson was charged with a misdemeanor after giving police a false first name after he was arrested on suspicion of theft. He later pleaded guilty."
Thanks for correcting me. I wasn't aware of that. Now I am.

Pleading guilty to giving police a false name. Man that's hard core criminal, too. I can'r believe I missed that.

So should we just take your claim that he has no criminal record as the truth vs people that actually looked into it and Johnson's own testimony that he has a criminal record?
You shouldn't take my word for anything.

Turtle said:
And yes, McCulloch has never once prosecuted a law enforcement officer for "excessive force" or for "police misconduct" which that link confirms.
Well that's where you would be wrong, again. I found this one which was really easy because it was relatively recent.
St. Louis County Police Officer Charged « CBS St. Louis
I put those two phrases in quotes for two reasons. One, because those are the words I actually used, and two, because they were used specifically to mean exactly what they say. The link which proves me "wrong again" does not say he was charged for "excessive force" or "police misconduct," it says he was charged with "felony assault." Feel free to view that in any light which proves me wrong.

In any event, that case has not yet been prosecuted.

It's also interesting that the police officer charged is black, and the differences thus far in how McCulloch has handled that case compared to how he handled Wilson's. See here here and here here.

You have been proven wrong on your claims of things that were contributing factors of the riots, which is what the thread topic was about as well as your claims of just how prejudice the prosecutor is and details about the case. You use examples of completely incorrect things to say that I am prejudice so that you can dismiss what I say and justify sticking to your opinion no matter what. All of that is very important.
The thread topic is about the disparity of press reporting, not the contributing factors of the riots. My opinion of how prejudiced the prosecutor is has not been disproved in any way, nor am I alone in my opinions as they are shared by residents of St Louis Country and Missouri state officials and many others. The requests to have him removed from the case in favor of an independent special prosecutor were not made because he has a history of unimpassioned impartiality. My opinions of your own prejudice are my opinions concluded using your own statements. They are not voiced to dismiss what you say. Nor are they statements of fact subject to being proved or disproved.

What have I said here that shows a racial bias? What pattern of comments?
You obviously didn't see them as biased when you made them, and you dismissed or ignored my comments about your statements. There's little to be gained by restating it all again. But you started off by flatly stating the Wilson shooting was a justifiable shooting, despite the fact that a significant number of people call that into question. Your angle on everything else is one that supports that view. That in and of itself doesn't mean anything, but it's the specific things you embrace as important and dismiss as unimportant, including dismissing as even existing McCulloch's own demonstrated racial bias and the racial bias of the police. You show a stark deference towards Wilson and a stark disregard for Brown and Johnson and the Ferguson protesters and their complaints. It all shows a pattern that doesn't itself lend to speculation about prejudice, until you compare and contrast previous comments you've made on racial issues.

Is there anything else that you would like to just completely make up?
I didn't make it up, per se, at least not without any logical reasoning. I drew those conclusions based on what you wrote.

It's unprofessional and not perfectly fine but I did say that cursing is not a reason to attack the officer which seems pretty obvious to everyone, well except you apparently.
No, you didn't say that, nor did I say you did. You said it didn't matter in the big picture if Wilson cussed or not, because cussing wouldn't give Brown the right to attack. I did not disagree with with Brown not having the right to attack Wilson, but I did disagree that it doesn't matter, because it does. Cussing doesn't give Brown a right to attack, but it certainly could be the reason, as it could have provoke anger in Brown. Having a right to do something and having a reason to do it are entirely different things.

So previously saying outright that I wasn't taking the officer's testimony at face value because he had a reason to lie meant what to you?
Disingenuous lip service. Because, you said the conflicting testimony cancels each other out, so you need to look at the physical evidence, which backs Wilson. If the evidence contradicted Johnson, instead of also backing his story, then your statement would be ingenuous, candid and sincere. You used the physical evidence in deference to Wilson when the same evidence can be used in deference to Johnson.

I have said that he didn't push hard for an indictment because he never felt like it was a case that was winnable but only did so due to political pressure. It's interesting how you have ignored multiple things that I have said and then claim the exact opposite to make it fit your biased opinion.
I haven't ignored them at all. I've paid close attention to everything you've said. Saying that he didn't push hard for an indictment because he never felt like it was a case that was winnable is exactly what someone would say if they have a bias in this case and think the blacks guys were totally in the wrong, the white cop was totally in the right, and the prosecutor is passionately impartial despite his history of not prosecuting other office shootings and the deluge of pleas (including a petition signed by more than 100,000 people) to have him recuse himself for an independent prosecutor. If the prosecutor didn't have such a lengthy uneven history and hadn't appeared to have been so angered at not being able to just dismiss this out of hand at the very beginning, your comments would be taken at face value.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Thanks for correcting me. I wasn't aware of that. Now I am.

Pleading guilty to giving police a false name. Man that's hard core criminal, too. I can'r believe I missed that.

Just keep embarrassing yourself. After repeated claims that he wasn't a criminal and then using your incorrect information to then make false claims about me it suddenly turns into well he is a criminal but not hardcore enough. Like I said before it's pointless to debate anyone that is so biased and determined that they are the know it all of everything that they speak about.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yes, some of Johnson's claims sound implausible, and yes, some of his contradictions are a problem. But then again, the same exact thing can be said about Wilson's claims and contradictions. I'm not giving either one a pass, not taking either one at face value, I want a trial so that it all gets sorted out.
The bottom line is that Johnson's claims - and those of some others - are implausible, especially having been coached by defense counsel. Wilson's certainly match up better with the physical evidence, eg - Brown was not shot in the back. Rather than have an OJ trial multiplied by geometric proportions, and offering the opportunity for the potential of riots and civil disturbance build up over time exacerbated by the national media it was determined by the grand jury that there was NO TRUE BILL - in other words, not even close to having enough evidence to bring a case to trial. Those who disagree with this decision will just have to live with it. They have the consolation knowing that the Obama DOJ is investigating the case for any possible chance of making a federal case for civil rights violations against Wilson. Most legal experts think this won't happen and the deal is done. Get over it.
 
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