Buckeyes Riot Burn Destroy Property, Not A Thug In Sight

Pilgrim

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As in most people don't care and there isn't a huge public outcry. There is some local attention because it is a local story but compare that to the national coverage of police using tear gas in Ferguson after things had gone much further. Ferguson was being reported as a peaceful protest where cops got heavy handed but the destruction there just ended up going on for too long and was too wide spread to just ignore. Also keep in mind that the protests there turned ugly based off of what turned out to be a justifiable shooting. People continue to support that stupidity and get angry first instead of saying let's get to the bottom of this. We need to know what happened and why before people are out screaming about things which does nothing but fuel anger and continue to make things worse.

There's no way to make a legitimate comparison between what happened in Ferguson and the riot in Columbus. Big difference between a crowd of drunken brats rioting over a football victory and an organized group threatening violence if they don't agree with a grand jury decision, then following through with their planned burning, looting, etc. It stands to reason the reporting of the two incidents would be different due to the scale of the damages involved in Ferguson and the impact it had on it and the surrounding areas. Of course the culprits in both cases should be arrested and face legal consequences, but the punishments doled out should be proportional to the crimes involved.

MIssouri Prepares for Ferguson Grand Jury Fallout
 

Turtle

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Don't riot and you won't get gassed. It is kinda simple.
That's the crux of the problem right there. Most of the people (arguably all of them) who got gassed in Columbus weren't rioting at all. Many of them were, in fact, standing there on the sidewalk when they got hit with pepper spray and tear gas.
 

Turtle

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As in most people don't care and there isn't a huge public outcry. There is some local attention because it is a local story but compare that to the national coverage of police using tear gas in Ferguson after things had gone much further. Ferguson was being reported as a peaceful protest where cops got heavy handed but the destruction there just ended up going on for too long and was too wide spread to just ignore.
The protests in Ferguson were peaceful initially. There was a makeshift memorial of flowers at the spot where Brown died, and a K-9 officer allowed his dog to urinate on the memorial, which didn't exactly engender the police to the crowd. Then a little while later police vehicle ran over and crushed the memorial, which further incited some anger towards police. The next day was peaceful memorials and protests, but when the sun fell and the candlelight vigil took place, the police moved in 150 officers in military outfits and brought in armored military vehicles. Not surprisingly, the anger towards the police reached a boiling point with a few, and some rioting and looting occurred, which is what the police were apparently hoping for. The next 3 days it just got worse.

Also keep in mind that the protests there turned ugly based off of what turned out to be a justifiable shooting.
Weeeell, the shooting was deemed justified, but whether it actually was or not is the point of contention. It was deemed justifiable by a prosecutor accused of conflict of interest and corruption. He needed the cooperation of the police to do his job, and his father who was a police officer was shot and killed by a black man. He has a history of refusing to prosecute police misconduct, and if there was any question as to where he stood before the grand jury process began, when the governor put Captain Ron Johnson of the Missouri State Highway Patrol in charge of Ferguson law enforcement after the riots and police overreaction, the prosecutor, McCulloch, criticized the governor's decision, saying "It's shameful what he did today. He had no legal authority to do that. To denigrate the men and women of the county police department is shameful." Then he reached the conclusion that the shooting was justifiable by leading a grand jury in an unprecedented process of presenting not only the prosecution's case to the grand jury, but in also presenting what would likely be the defense's case to them. All behind closed doors.

People continue to support that stupidity and get angry first instead of saying let's get to the bottom of this. We need to know what happened and why before people are out screaming about things which does nothing but fuel anger and continue to make things worse.
That's exactly what they wanted and asked for, but were denied. Instead of getting to the bottom of it, the prosecutor conducted everything in secret with the grand jury. If a prosecutor wants a grand jury indictment, he can get it. There's only one reason he didn't get one.
 

cheri1122

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There's no way to make a legitimate comparison between what happened in Ferguson and the riot in Columbus. Big difference between a crowd of drunken brats rioting over a football victory and an organized group threatening violence if they don't agree with a grand jury decision, then following through with their planned burning, looting, etc. It stands to reason the reporting of the two incidents would be different due to the scale of the damages involved in Ferguson and the impact it had on it and the surrounding areas. Of course the culprits in both cases should be arrested and face legal consequences, but the punishments doled out should be proportional to the crimes involved.

MIssouri Prepares for Ferguson Grand Jury Fallout

Aaah - but in the eyes of the law, there is [and should be] no difference, when people are rioting in the streets. Whether they're "drunken brats" or an "organized group" [?] they are in violation of the laws.
Funny, how you are quick to defend the sports fans, but refuse to acknowledge that the protesters in Ferguson were not doing anything other than protesting peacefully, before law enforcement escalated it with their SWAT team response. Given that the people were already angry over the police treatment of their concerns [in addition to the abuses listed by Turtle, they were furious that Brown's body was left lying in the street for hours, mostly open to view - and wouldn't you take offense?] not just recently, but for a very long time, what other reaction could be expected?
Like another group of fed up people concluded once: there comes a time when you dump the tea in the harbor to make a point that can no longer be ignored.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
The protests in Ferguson were peaceful initially.

They had problems with protests turning into problems from pretty much the beginning.

Weeeell, the shooting was deemed justified, but whether it actually was or not is the point of contention.

Well given the amount of overwhelming evidence that backed up the officer's version of events it seems pretty clear.

That's exactly what they wanted and asked for, but were denied. Instead of getting to the bottom of it, the prosecutor conducted everything in secret with the grand jury. If a prosecutor wants a grand jury indictment, he can get it. There's only one reason he didn't get one.

The evidence is out there for everyone to see and an investigation was completed so we did get to the bottom of it.
 

Turtle

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They had problems with protests turning into problems from pretty much the beginning.
A town with a history of white police abuse against blacks, where they allowed a police dog to urinate on the memorial the very first day, and a few hours later the police ran over it and crushed the memorial. That set the stage right there.

Well given the amount of overwhelming evidence that backed up the officer's version of events it seems pretty clear.
It isn't all that overwhelming. Some supported Wilson's version, some did not. Witness testimony was oddly split. Most of the physical evidence is consistent with Wilson's version, but as much as anything it didn't contradict his version. But that doesn't mean that his version of the event is the only way that things happened. Many people are skeptical about the evidence and the handling of the case on a variety of levels. The physical evidence did not demonstrate that Darren Wilson was acting in self-defense, as the prosecutor claimed, nor did demonstrate that he was not. The evidence shows that Darren Wilson's version of events were feasible but other scenarios could have been possible as well. There were also some major inconsistencies in Wilson's and Dorian Johnson's (the guy who was with Brown) testimony, which McCulloch did not press Wilson on.

The evidence is out there for everyone to see and an investigation was completed so we did get to the bottom of it.
Yes, the evidence is out there for everyone to see. Unfortunately not a lot of people have taken the considerable time to look at it. And just because the investigation is complete doesn't mean we got to the bottom of it. That assumes the investigation was complete and totally impartial. It wasn't.

The thing is, the purpose of a grand jury is to determine if there is reasonable doubt (of innocence) to file charges. We are all presumed innocent until we are found guilty. If there is a reasonable doubt of our innocence, charges get files and a trial jury decides guilty or not guilty. If there is conflicting evidence presented to a grand jury, that alone is reasonable doubt of innocence. That's all it takes. Conflicting evidence, be it physical or testimony.

McCulloch actively steered the grand jury into not indicting. That's insanely clear from the questions and answers in the grand jury transcripts. This completed "investigation" wasn't much of an investigation, because Wilson was never really the target of the investigation. The prosecution treated him with kid gloves as if he was a victim, not the target.

On the initial confrontation,

Wilson testifies that he first saw Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson walking in the middle of the street. When he told them to walk on the sidewalk, he quotes Brown as saying, “What the f--- are you going to do about it?”

{Johnson has a very different account}

He then backed his car up, and says Brown slammed the door on him when he opened it to try to get out.

Johnson said Wilson slammed the car door into Brown and then grabbed him.

The prosecutors don’t ask Wilson about the discrepancy. Wilson is never pressed on that, he downplays his own aggressiveness and isn't asked out it at all.

On the struggle at the car,

Wilson said Brown attacked him in the police car, and while doing so, paused briefly and asked Johnson to hold the cigarillos he’d just stolen.

“Hey man, hold these,” Wilson quoted Brown as saying.

I suppose it's plausible, but it sounds just ludicrous. If this is going to be a serious scuffle, you don’t care what happens to the cigarillos, especially since you didn't pay for them in the first place. That's something that the target of an investigation would be confronted on.

On the shots fired,

Wilson said he warned Brown he was going to shoot him if he didn't stop attacking him, and “he immediately grabs my gun and says, 'You are too much of a p---y to shoot me.' "

Stop attacking me or I'll shoot you? Seriously? No. A cop would just shoot. Period. And "You are too much of a p---y to shoot me." Really? Yeah, that's exactly how bruthahs in the 'hood talk. Right before they say, "Are ya feelin' lucky, punk?" Well, they talk like that in really bad B movies, anyway. But none of that is how real people talk in the middle of a scuffle. But the prosecution let is all pass.

On the fatal gunshots,

The physical evidence largely corroborates Wilson't testimony, or at lest doesn't contradict it on any major points. But what happened right after that is all over the place. Some witnesses testified that Brown was shot in the back while running away. Others say he was standing still. Some backed Wilson’s account that Brown was charging him. One actually testified he saw Brown on his knees with his hands up.

That alone is reasonable doubt for an indictment. But instead of doing that, McCulloch played the role of defense attorney. On that last one where the witness testified that Brown was on his knees with his hands up, McCulloch ridiculed the witness.

"Basically just about everything that you said on Aug. 13, and much of what you said today isn't consistent with the physical evidence that we have in this case, OK."

He just called a witness an idiot and told him (and the grand jury) that his testimony was worthless. It's astonishingly improper commentary, which if happened in open court would result in a mistrial. It's a clear display of steering the grand jury not to indict.

On the aftermath of the shots fired,

Blood spatters indicate Brown had started moving toward Wilson at some point before the fatal shot to the head. Prosecutors pressed the medical examiner on whether it was possible Brown could have been charging forward when he was shot.

Holy crap. That’s a defense lawyer's question, not a prosecutor's. If Wilson was the target of the grand jury investigation, then a prosecutor would be emphasizing that Brown was likely standing still or simply staggering from his injuries when Wilson fired the fatal shot, rather than saying despite Browns already substantial gunshot wounds, he would be charging forward like the Incredible Hulk hopped up on PCP. Sheesh.

So no, the evidence was not overwhelming, and we didn't get to the bottom of it. The entire grand jury process was a farce of political theater produced and directed for the sole purpose of McCulloch not filing charges against Officer Wilson without having to directly answer for not doing so. The grand jury is a tool of the prosecutor in every way that matters. Defense attorneys and legal council aren't even allowed in there. Neither are judges. The prosecutor runs the show. It's real easy to get an indictment under those circumstances if you want one. Real easy.

 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
A town with a history of white police abuse against blacks, where they allowed a police dog to urinate on the memorial the very first day, and a few hours later the police ran over it and crushed the memorial. That set the stage right there.


I don't care if a police officer urinated on the memorial because it does not justify the looting and aftermath. It says that there were several complaints (which could just be a rumor) about the dog urinating on the memorial but it's odd that no one caught that on video given the amount of people there and cell phone video taken everywhere. There are very simple ways to file complaints and given the media attention to the case it wouldn't have been hard to push for disciplinary action.

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/08...-dog-pee-on-Brown-memorial-then-drove-over-it

The link there has a picture of the memorial with candles that weren't smashed at all. In fact it's protected by traffic cones and the candles had clearly been burning throughout the night so it isn't an early photo. It seems the "memorial" that the complaints were about were where some rose pedals were spread around, kind of easy to not see.

It isn't all that overwhelming. Some supported Wilson's version, some did not.

The physical evidence supporting the officer's version and the worthless eyewitness that contradicted each other made it overwhelming.

And just because the investigation is complete doesn't mean we got to the bottom of it.

It pretty much does. Is it guaranteed to be 100% accurate? No, but the evidence shows overall that Michael Brown and his friend were the problem. Both the officer and the friend had clear motivation to lie and twist things in their favor so forgetting them and looking at the physical evidence plus the eyewitness accounts are the way to go.

The thing is, the purpose of a grand jury is to determine if there is reasonable doubt (of innocence) to file charges. We are all presumed innocent until we are found guilty. If there is a reasonable doubt of our innocence, charges get files and a trial jury decides guilty or not guilty. If there is conflicting evidence presented to a grand jury, that alone is reasonable doubt of innocence. That's all it takes. Conflicting evidence, be it physical or testimony.

The grand jury was aware of the contradictory evidence but just didn't deem it as reasonable doubt, most likely because the physical evidence was there to backup the officer. There could have been many other issues including how the witnesses portrayed themselves on the stand and which ones appeared to be credible.

McCulloch actively steered the grand jury into not indicting. That's insanely clear from the questions and answers in the grand jury transcripts. This completed "investigation" wasn't much of an investigation, because Wilson was never really the target of the investigation. The prosecution treated him with kid gloves as if he was a victim, not the target.

He was the victim of an attack by Michael Brown.

{Johnson has a very different account}

A criminal that could want revenge on the officer having a different account than the cop pretty much means ignore the testimony. Do I believe the officer used curse words? He probably did but it changes nothing.

He then backed his car up, and says Brown slammed the door on him when he opened it to try to get out.

Johnson said Wilson slammed the car door into Brown and then grabbed him.

The officer was pursuing criminals to apprehend them.

“Hey man, hold these,” Wilson quoted Brown as saying.

I suppose it's plausible, but it sounds just ludicrous. If this is going to be a serious scuffle, you don’t care what happens to the cigarillos, especially since you didn't pay for them in the first place.

That's actually pretty much what I would expect someone that was getting ready to have a serious confrontation to do. It's a way to let the other party know that you are about to get serious and play mind games, I have personally seen it done.

Stop attacking me or I'll shoot you? Seriously? No. A cop would just shoot. Period.

Umm, take a look at YouTube sometime and you will see officers in the middle of a fight tell the suspect to stop fighting or they will shoot/taze them.

Some witnesses testified that Brown was shot in the back while running away. Others say he was standing still. Some backed Wilson’s account that Brown was charging him. One actually testified he saw Brown on his knees with his hands up.

That's why I put more stock in the physical evidence that is then backed up by more eyewitnesses. A guy that claims he was on his knees wouldn't give reasonable doubt of innocence at all because of all the other testimony and physical evidence.

The entire grand jury process was a farce of political theater produced and directed for the sole purpose of McCulloch not filing charges against Officer Wilson without having to directly answer for not doing so. The grand jury is a tool of the prosecutor in every way that matters.

The prosecutor can and will make decisions on wether or not to prosecute based on the evidence. I think based on what he saw and the big mess of eyewitness testimony he did not want to prosecute but was forced to under political pressure.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter

So no, the evidence was not overwhelming, and we didn't get to the bottom of it. The entire grand jury process was a farce of political theater produced and directed for the sole purpose of McCulloch not filing charges against Officer Wilson without having to directly answer for not doing so. The grand jury is a tool of the prosecutor in every way that matters. Defense attorneys and legal council aren't even allowed in there. Neither are judges. The prosecutor runs the show. It's real easy to get an indictment under those circumstances if you want one. Real easy.
In spite of the above biased opinion, what happened with the Ferguson grand jury was an unusual latitude allowed for them to evaluate as much evidence and testimony as possible, then come to a conclusion without the biased directive of a prosecutor based on selected evidence. The New York Times - not exactly a bastion of conservatism or law-and-order fanatics - has done some excellent work on the Ferguson events which includes the following:
What Was the Basis of the Grand Jury’s Decision?

The prosecutor usually chooses the evidence that a grand jury will hear, but in this case, the grand jury was given more latitude in calling witnesses and issuing subpoenas, according to Susan McGraugh, a law professor at the St. Louis University who has followed the case extensively. Grand jurors viewed photographs, forensic evidence and medical reports. Witnesses who testified include people who saw the events and police officers who worked on the investigation. While it is unusual in grand jury proceedings for the defendant to appear, Officer Wilson also gave testimony.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...i-town-under-siege-after-police-shooting.html
The paragraph following the one above is an interesting graphic showing the differences between the Ferguson grand jury and a typical grand jury. Since I couldn't get the format to reproduce, the reader will have to scroll about halfway down the article (which is in a Q&A format) to find it. However, the more one examines their process, the testimony and especially the physical evidence, the more apparent it becomes that they came to a reasonable conclusion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/u...charged-at-darren-wilson-prosecutor-says.html

If anyone is so inclined, they can even examine all the testimony and statements

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/11/25/us/evidence-released-in-michael-brown-case.html?_r=0

Even after reading only a few of the witness statements, it becomes apparent that these recounts of the Brown incident vary greatly and it's obvious that more than a few witnesses lied in their statements to the police and in their testimonies to the grand jury. Notice that none were prosecuted for perjury.
 

muttly

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Retired Expediter
Robert McCullough did the correct thing IMO. He felt there wasn't sufficient evidence to prosecute after a thorough investigation, but still brought the case before a Grand Jury and let more eyes (Grand Jurors)look at it. They also felt there was insufficient evidence.
Bob McCulloch Did the Right Thing in Ferguson
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Robert McCullough did the correct thing IMO. He felt there wasn't sufficient evidence to prosecute after a thorough investigation, but still brought the case before a Grand Jury and let more eyes (Grand Jurors)look at it. They also felt there was insufficient evidence.
Bob McCulloch Did the Right Thing in Ferguson

I don't think he brought the case before a grand jury in the interest of showing just how fair and impartial he was trying to be. I think he looked at the evidence and saw that there was no way to win but bowed to political pressure to bring it before a grand jury. There was probably concern that not doing so would create more chaos.
 

davekc

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I don't think he brought the case before a grand jury in the interest of showing just how fair and impartial he was trying to be. I think he looked at the evidence and saw that there was no way to win but bowed to political pressure to bring it before a grand jury. There was probably concern that not doing so would create more chaos.

I would agree with that. Imagine had he not done that and just refused to indict Wilson. But I also agree that once that was decided to use a grand jury, it was pretty much political theater to obtain the desired results.
 

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
I don't care if a police officer urinated on the memorial because it does not justify the looting and aftermath.
Well, no, of course it doesn't justify it, but it certainly contributed to it. If I walked up and peed on your shoes, you wouldn't be justified in smashing your fist in my face, but it could certainly be seen as being a contributing factor.

It says that there were several complaints (which could just be a rumor) about the dog urinating on the memorial but it's odd that no one caught that on video given the amount of people there and cell phone video taken everywhere. There are very simple ways to file complaints and given the media attention to the case it wouldn't have been hard to push for disciplinary action.
The "(which could just be rumor)" was related and confirmed independently by three different state and three different local officials who witnessed it, including a State Senator and a St Louis Alderman.

Police let their dog urinate on Michael Brown memorial, then drove over it

The link there has a picture of the memorial with candles that weren't smashed at all. In fact it's protected by traffic cones and the candles had clearly been burning throughout the night so it isn't an early photo. It seems the "memorial" that the complaints were about were where some rose pedals were spread around, kind of easy to not see.
So instead of keeping up with the case as it happened and examining information with impartial scrutiny and skepticism, it appears you had your mind made up early on what happened, seized upon tidbits that satisfied you, and are now Googling for information to support that position. Please don't tell me that you actually believe that a picture of the undamaged memorial is somehow proof that it wasn't later damaged. The links below show video of the trashed memorial, and it's rebuilding. The also speak, in the words of the police, of the attitude of the police about the memorial.
Ferguson Suspends Officer Who Called Michael Brown Memorial 'Trash' - NBC News

Michael Brown memorial destroyed overnight - The Washington Post

The physical evidence supporting the officer's version and the worthless eyewitness that contradicted each other made it overwhelming.
I take it then that you've never been a grand juror? While the physical evidence supported Wilson's version of events, it also supported Johnson's version of events. How can that be possible when the two gave such different versions? It's because the physical evidence is what it is, it supports the shootings and where they occurred, but doesn't even address the motivations, mental states or intentions of anyone. As for the worthless eyewitness, setting aside the fact that McCulloch intentionally put people on the stand who he knew was lying, contradicting testimony in a grand jury proceeding is, by definition and by law, probable cause to file charges. One person says he did it, another person says he didn't do it, then at that point its up to a trial jury to decide.

It pretty much does. Is it guaranteed to be 100% accurate? No, but the evidence shows overall that Michael Brown and his friend were the problem. Both the officer and the friend had clear motivation to lie and twist things in their favor so forgetting them and looking at the physical evidence plus the eyewitness accounts are the way to go.
The eyewitness accounts conflict each other, and the physical evidence says nothing about who confronted whom, who was the initial aggressor, and who escalated things to the point of gunfire. The initial words spoken by Wilson could be the key to that, and Wilson's and Johnson's versions are radically different. The physical evidence doesn't even hint at which one is telling he truth.

The grand jury was aware of the contradictory evidence but just didn't deem it as reasonable doubt, most likely because the physical evidence was there to backup the officer. There could have been many other issues including how the witnesses portrayed themselves on the stand and which ones appeared to be credible.
Don't forget the grand jury was steered by the prosecution towards no indictment. In McCulloch's press conference he strongly implied the jury as a whole was united on its decision not to indict (9 white, 3 black, you need 9 to indict), but one juror has filed a lawsuit (and others have since signed on) to restore their First Amendment rights in removing the lifetime gag order preventing them from talking about the case and how things were presented. The suit names McCulloch specifically as not accurately depicting their views.

He was the victim of an attack by Michael Brown.
No, he was the target defendant of a grand jury investigation. Any attack would not have been impossible if Wilson had not stopped and confronted Brown. Because there is no trial, we'll never know if that confrontation was a normal respectful one between police and citizen, and Brown launched an unprovoked attack, or if Wilson confronted Brown in a manner that provoked and escalated it.

A criminal that could want revenge on the officer having a different account than the cop pretty much means ignore the testimony. Do I believe the officer used curse words? He probably did but it changes nothing.
The use of the word "criminal" seems a little prejudicial since Johnson hasn't been convicted of anything. But, yes, if the officer used cuss words, it changes a lot. Officers cussing at people under the color of authority is inflammatory and provocative. Ever been cussed out? It's not the same as not being cussed out. Wilson admitted in grand jury testimony to using the F-word several times during his exchange with Brown which shows an ease of use with the word. Except when he initially encountered Brown, where Wilson's language, according to Wilson, was practically that of an angel. More likely, Johnson's account of the initial contact by Wilson is the more accurate.

That's actually pretty much what I would expect someone that was getting ready to have a serious confrontation to do. It's a way to let the other party know that you are about to get serious and play mind games, I have personally seen it done.
No, this was in the middle of the scuffle, after Brown had already hit Wilson. According to the testimony, as Wilson began reaching for his gun after telling Brown to stop hitting him or he'd shoot, Brown paused, backed away, handed the box to Johnson, and then picked up where he left off. When someone is reaching for a gun after they've told you they're going to shoot, playing mind games are over, as it's a life and death struggle at that point.

Umm, take a look at YouTube sometime and you will see officers in the middle of a fight tell the suspect to stop fighting or they will shoot/taze them. [
Seem 'em, thanks. But Wilson was afraid for his life, according to his own testimony.

That's why I put more stock in the physical evidence that is then backed up by more eyewitnesses.
I think you're putting too much stock in the physical evidence, because it doesn't say nearly as much as you think it does. Plus, the physical evidence backs up what both Wilson and Johnson stated.

A guy that claims he was on his knees wouldn't give reasonable doubt of innocence at all because of all the other testimony and physical evidence.
But that's for a trial jury to decide, not a grand jury. Plus, the prosecution knew that witness was lying when they put him (or her) on the stand, and did so specifically to ridicule the witness (in Wilson's favor - steering)

The prosecutor can and will make decisions on wether or not to prosecute based on the evidence. I think based on what he saw and the big mess of eyewitness testimony he did not want to prosecute but was forced to under political pressure.
Yeah, like I said, he didn't want to make the call and be on the hook for it, so he staged a grand jury proceeding, in an unprecedented fashion, to shift blame to the grand jury for the decision not to indict. And did so by steering the jurors to the decision. Don't forget, he's never met a case of police wrongdoing he wanted to prosecute. That he has a long history of refusing to prosecute police misconduct and criminal actions was something that came out almost immediately after the shooting, long before there was eyewitness testimony and before any physical evidence had been collected and processed. It was predicted from the outset that he wouldn't prosecute Wilson, because he doesn't prosecute cops.

Even if the shooting was 100% for-real, no doubt about it justified, his history had already set him up in the position where he personally couldn't make the call, even though it's his to make, and he needed the grand jury to make it for him. The problem was in how he presented the case to the grand jury, steering them, handling the target of the investigation with kid gloves, knowingly allowing witness to lie on the stand to benefit the target, and actually presenting the defense's case to the grand jury, which NEVER happens.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I don't think he brought the case before a grand jury in the interest of showing just how fair and impartial he was trying to be. I think he looked at the evidence and saw that there was no way to win but bowed to political pressure to bring it before a grand jury. There was probably concern that not doing so would create more chaos.
Yes that's true, but the prosecutor did handle it in the fairest way possible. Imagine the outrage if he prevented some of the witnesses from testifying because he knew they were lying. Some would be calling it a coverup.
I would like to see more Grand Juries handled the way this prosecutor handled it. Prosecutors HAVE THE OBLIGATION TO PROVIDE EXCULPATORY EVIDENCE.
 

muttly

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Retired Expediter
Police let their dog urinate on Michael Brown memorial, then drove over it

The link there has a picture of the memorial with candles that weren't smashed at all. In fact it's protected by traffic cones and the candles had clearly been burning throughout the night so it isn't an early photo. It seems the "memorial" that the complaints were about were where some rose pedals were spread around, kind of easy to not see.
You are correct.
There was also two separate incidents. The one you linked to and another one which happened on Dec 26 very early in the morning.
The incident with the police vehicle, reportedly ran over some rose petals that were scattered on the road. Very plausible that the officer didn't see them. The other incident involved a vehicle that did more damage to the memorial.There is no evidence it was a police vehicle. It could have been anyone that wanted to damage the site, or very well may have been someone who didn't see it clearly because it was in the middle of the night .

Police Officer Accused Of Letting Dog Urinate On Michael Brown Memorial In Ferguson
 

Turtle

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In spite of the above biased opinion, what happened with the Ferguson grand jury was an unusual latitude allowed for them to evaluate as much evidence and testimony as possible, then come to a conclusion without the biased directive of a prosecutor based on selected evidence.
But that didn't happen. The prosecutor was all kinds of biased in his presentation. Presenting evidence to the grand jury for the defense is showing clear deference to the defendant. Wilson was questioned on the stand by the prosecution as if the prosecution was his defense attorneys, failing to treat him adversarial, accepting everything he said at face value, not questioning on anything he said including his own inconsistencies within the testimony and between testimony and deposition. The prosecution was overtly hostile to witnesses who gave damaging testimony against Wilson.

And then there's the little matter of letting people testify whom he knew were lying, like Sandra McElroy, for example, who testified that Michael Brown charged at Wilson “like a football player, head down,” supporting Wilson’s claim that he killed Brown in self-defense. She testified for several hours over 2 days. She was treated with kid gloves also, and was made to be extremely believable.

The problem is, she wasn't even there. Didn't..see..a..thing.

And McCulloch knew it.

McCulloch justified doing so by saying the grand jury gave no credence to her testimony. But he made that up. He doesn't know. Prosecutors aren't allowed to be in there with the jurors while they're deliberating, nor are they allowed to discuss the deliberations with the jurors.

That's probably why McCulloch is under investigation by the Missouri General Assembly and the Missouri State Bar's Disciplinary Committee.

The New York Times - not exactly a bastion of conservatism or law-and-order fanatics - has done some excellent work on the Ferguson events which includes the following:

The paragraph following the one above is an interesting graphic showing the differences between the Ferguson grand jury and a typical grand jury. Since I couldn't get the format to reproduce, the reader will have to scroll about halfway down the article (which is in a Q&A format) to find it. However, the more one examines their process, the testimony and especially the physical evidence, the more apparent it becomes that they came to a reasonable conclusion.
Yes, it's quite different in how the grand juries are handled. Jarringly so. At the time it was going on lawyers all over the place were scratching their heads and questioning the wisdom and reasons for it, and even more of them think it was wrong now that it's over. McCulloch has never done before what he did with Wilson't case. Some people may believe the jurors reached a reasonable conclusion, but it was a conclusion they were destined to reach. McCulloch did what prosecutors have always done - present his case to the grand jury with his thumb firmly on the scale to get the decision he wanted. A grand jury is a the tool of the prosecution.

When you examine the evidence, especially the testimony, it's also important to examine what is not there. The testimony doesn't show, for example, why prosecutors did not cross-examine Wilson over some of the inconsistencies in the story he told to grand jurors. Wilson wasn't questioned about the hospital report which found that after the shooting that other than the slight redness on his right cheek (which is towards the inside of the car and unlikely to be struck by a right fist of someone standing outside the car, yet that's how Wilson testified) and a scratch on the back of his neck, that he was "well-appearing, well-nourished, in no apparent distress." Nor was he challenged about his inconsistent statements in how many times and in what manner he was punched by Brown, or in what were Brown's final moves just before the killing. NOT asking those questions is how to you handle your own witness as a defense attorney. But those are lines of questioning that you, as a prosecutor, are certainly going to want to take when questioning the accused target of a grand jury indictment proceeding.

Contrary to some of the statements of a few of the more agitated, the only thing the people of Ferguson wanted was equal and honest justice - some kind of proof that young black lives matter in a town (and arguably a country) with a history of it being the opposite. Instead, McCulloch determined that this case would be brought before the grand jury in a manner that NONE of the other hundreds of cases that he's prosecuted in St. Louis County have ever been handled. In other words, instead of equal and honest justice, Mike Brown's justice was was separate, dishonest and highly unequal. Every defense attorney in St. Louis with a client under investigation should demand that McCulloch treat their case the same way he treated the case of Darren Wilson. Do you think McCulloch would be okay with that? And if not, how can you say that there was justice of any kind in this case?

Everything that happened in that grand jury, and in Ferguson, was mostly staged. When the grand jury decision was announced, it was telegraphed long before the announcement. It was discussed right here on EO and a really lot of other places as to why on Earth would a prosecutor with any intelligence, with an angry crowd outside city hall announce several hours in advance the time of the announcement, so as to allow anyone not part of the crowd plenty of time to join in, and then schedule that time for 8PM local time when it's good and dark. Especially since he knew what the announcement was gonna be? Was anybody anywhere at all surprised at the reaction of the crowd? No of course not. That's because it was all crafted to be that way.

Robert McCulloch, the top law enforcement official in one of the nation's largest counties, had weeks to decide just exactly how he would release the eventual results of the grand jury probe. And of course he knew full well for all of those weeks what the likely decision of no indictment was gonna be, because he had engineered it right from the start. He could have released the news earlier in the day, when many folks were still in work or school, or he could have held the information overnight and released it the next morning. Instead, he picked the time when the largest number of protesters possible could gather, and react, under the cover of a deep dark sky.

The announcement and its timing was just one of a number of critical decisions by McCulloch that were either very inept, or crazy, or maybe neither at all after you consider what his real objectives might be. Start in the early days of the crisis, when McCulloch, from a family of police officers, whose father was murdered by a black man in the 1960s, who won office with the enthusiastic backing of the police union and and who has never, ever, not even once prosecuted a law-enforcement officer for excessive force or police misconduct, much less a police shooting, joined with Governor Nixon to resist any and all calls to remove himself from this case in favor of an impartial special prosecutor. He wanted this case, period. And he wanted it for reasons other than simply that's his job. Prosecutors are replaced all the time with special prosecutors for conflicts on interest and other reasons. It's no disgrace or anything like that.

Then next came a series of McCulloch moves, to dump mounds of evidence on the grand jury, much of it conflicting, to not seek a specific charge against Wilson, and to allow the "target" of the investigation to tell his side of the story, unchallenged by the prosecution, for four hours, that all pointed in one direction, to guide the legal process to its predetermined outcome of no indictment. There's no other way to interpret that, because there's no other reason to handle it that way.

The release of the supporting grand jury documents raises far more questions than they answer, like the ones above about what kids of questions were not asked, and which kids of questions were asked. McCulloch could have put most of the doubts to rest in his announcement with just a simple announcement, one that was respectful (to the people and the process), balanced and factual, but he chose to show what he was really all about instead. He was smug, arrogant, pretentious, and, in ginormous irony, and I do love a good irony, me managed to "indict" just about everyone not named Darren Wilson. He lashed out at the media - "the 24/7 news cycle and an insatiable appetite for something -- for anything to talk about" - without once saying anything about the 19 journalists who were arrested until Amnesty International finally arrived to monitor the human-rights violations by the police. He lashed out at social media, because nothing ticks off a government official than Tweets they don't like. And his angry, passionate, biased words about Mike Brown left little doubt whom McCulloch really wanted to charge.

Afterwards, lawyers and legal analysts interviewed on TV were uniform in being rather unkind to McCulloh's actions and statements. It was something that deserved much air time discussion, but it got very little. Why not? Because Ferguson was in flames by the time McCulloch's dog and pony show was over, and TV cameras are drawn to fire faster than moths to the same flames.

But that's pretty much what McCulloch expected. How could he not? You can bet yer azz that he wanted the 24/7 media that he whined about and every newspaper front page in America to show riots, rather than linger on him and the injustice system in St. Louis County. Without question, authorities in Ferguson and in the governor's office worked really hard over those few months leading up to the announcement to make the story today one of lawless disorder and protests, rather than a story of injustice. Remember the drumbeat of law-and-order stories, like Governor Nixon taking the rather extraordinary move of declaring a state of emergency! OMG! a full week before the announcement, which, of course, naturally stole the spotlight from how this whole story started in the first place - about social injustice, and policing in black communities? The hated white cops vs. the unruly/violent mostly black mob - that's the storyline that people like Nixon and McCulloch (and possibly a few here) feel most comfortable with, and so it's the story that they orchestrated for weeks. Hammered it over and over. They consistently deflected questions about the injustices in Ferguson to that of the throngs of protesters, and the damage done. And it worked, because that's all a lot of people want to talk about.

Even after reading only a few of the witness statements, it becomes apparent that these recounts of the Brown incident vary greatly and it's obvious that more than a few witnesses lied in their statements to the police and in their testimonies to the grand jury. Notice that none were prosecuted for perjury.
Prosecutions for perjury are pretty rare, anyway, as lying under oath isn't actually a crime in and of itself. Perjury isn't a crime unless the false statements made are material to the outcome of the proceeding. If the lie changes or greatly affects the outcome, then it's perjury, but if it doesn't, then you're merely not believable. No harm no foul. Granted, in the Ferguson grand jury testimony a lot of those lies were very likely material to the outcome. But there is no way McCulloh would prosecute anyone for perjury, because he's already publicly admitted that he knowingly put to them on the stand to lie.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yes that's true, but the prosecutor did handle it in the fairest way possible. Imagine the outrage if he prevented some of the witnesses from testifying because he knew they were lying. Some would be calling it a coverup.
I would like to see more Grand Juries handled the way this prosecutor handled it. Prosecutors HAVE THE OBLIGATION TO PROVIDE EXCULPATORY EVIDENCE.
We've been over this at least twice, and you're still making the same wrong statements. It's so simple even a cave man can understand it. Prosecutors have no obligation whatsoever to provide exculpatory evidence to a grand jury. They have that obligation to a trial jury, but not to a grand jury.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The other incident involved a vehicle that did more damage to the memorial.There is no evidence it was a police vehicle. It could have been anyone that wanted to damage the site, or very well may have been someone who didn't see it clearly because it was in the middle of the night .
The road was already blocked off to traffic by the police and had not yet been reopened, so the only vehicles on that road were police vehicles.
 
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