Bordering on Insanity

[Turtle]

I am not clueless. A fund raising sonnet written in the late 1800's should have nothing to do with today's immigration policy. Things have drastically changed since that was written.

Not really. People want to come here today for the same reasons they did when that sonnet was written. The ideas expressed in the sonnet were the backbone of American immigration policy long before that sonnet was written, and will remain so for a long, long time. The sonnet didn't write policy, it merely echoed what had always been at the core of our immigration policy.

Our national immigration policy should be based on the needs and realities of today, not yesterdays. It should be founded in the scope of all of today's problems, not politics or sentimentality.

First, immigration has always been about politics, and it always will be. Second, that sonnet echoes the very thing we as a people, and we as a country, are all about, both then and now. It loudly echoes that old timey, sappy sentimentality of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. The sonnet and the Statue of Liberty are both a welcome and a symbol for the downtrodden, the oppressed, the huddles masses yearning to breathe free. It is the celebration of freedom, the celebration of a free country and a free people, the celebration of a dream that is a reality here in America.

I am astonished that you have a problem with the idea of wanting to be free, and of America providing freedom for those who come here.

 

[layoutshooter]

Not really. People want to come here today for the same reasons they did when that sonnet was written. The ideas expressed in the sonnet were the backbone of American immigration policy long before that sonnet was written, and will remain so for a long, long time. The sonnet didn't write policy, it merely echoed what had always been at the core of our immigration policy.

First, immigration has always been about politics, and it always will be. Second, that sonnet echoes the very thing we as a people, and we as a country, are all about, both then and now. It loudly echoes that old timey, sappy sentimentality of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. The sonnet and the Statue of Liberty are both a welcome and a symbol for the downtrodden, the oppressed, the huddles masses yearning to breathe free. It is the celebration of freedom, the celebration of a free country and a free people, the celebration of a dream that is a reality here in America.

I am astonished that you have a problem with the idea of wanting to be free, and of America providing freedom for those who come here.

First off, I do not believe that all that are coming here today are coming to BREATHE FREE. Just as in the past, only more so today in my opinion, there are many coming here not to enjoy our freedoms but to destroy them. They do so in many ways. Some are here to kill, blow up or create terror. Many are coming in to take down our Nation, make it a part of a "larger" order.

I do totally understand the drive for freedom. My grandparents came here LEGALLY for that reason. They wanted a better life. They made that life for us. They did not come here looking for free this or free that. They came here to WORK and WORK HARD!! They paid for their own health care. They paid for their own housing. Their own food. They ALL learned American English, some better than others to be sure, but they all did. They did not want to be Polish Americans or Italian Americans, the wanted to be AMERICANS in every way. They did not march demanding things, they worked, earned, became citizens and IMPROVED the country. They did not TAKE from it, they provided FOR it. They did not believe that they were OWED a living or their citizenship. They believed that the privilege of U.S. Citizenship was a dream to be EARNED. They burst with pride when they pasted their citizenship tests in ENGLISH and took the oath of citizenship in ENGLISH. They did NOT need some one to speak for them.

They did NOT allow my mother and father to learn anything other than standard American English, why? They wanted their children to be AMERICANS.

I am in NO WAY opposed to reasonable, controlled immigration. I have never said otherwise. America needs immigrants. As I stated before, we must insure the health and background of everyone coming in. We should not have open borders. We should not allow millions upon millions to just come and go as they please.

No one is OWED entry into this country. No one is OWED a better life. We don't need millions who think that they are ENTITLED to everything. We already have enough "home grown" leaches.

America is a nation of immigrants, it always will be. I hope that never changes. I do EXPECT that when someone decides to JOIN us for our freedoms and our way of life that they EARN IT!!

I know many good, solid, hard working immigrants. They remind me of my own family. The right way.

 

[aristotle]

We are watching the Balkanization of America. As the federal government turns a blind eye to illegal immigration, southwestern states such as California and Arizona are being repopulated by south-of-the-border immigrants seeking a better life. Will there be white-flight from these states like the white exodus from inner cities in the 1960's-70's? Not saying this is a positive or negative trend. Probably the natural, and inevitable, progression of human movement. Regional differences in various sections of the USA will become more pronounced, not less. Is that healthy for our nation?

 

[Poorboy]

don't tell me about hurdles. my grt grandmother came from sweden, raised 9 children on a farm in the early 1900's. she died a citizen at 101.

my in laws emigrated in 1961. only my fil spoke english. gracie was 8. sister was 4. mom was 39. completely foreign world for them. no help. no social services. no online help. girls learned english and prejudice in elementary school. mom learned english from soaps and reading the newspaper and by people speaking louder to her when she didn't understand, like she was deaf.

his motto was....we didn't come here to be danes in america we came to be americans. different motto from many illegals today.

gracie and sis became citizens thru their parents. then when they were adults got their own paper. depends on you outlook and desire.

Were You Referring to My Post about Hurdles?

 

[RLENT]

I am not clueless.

Yeah, well ..... uhm ..... that is your OPINION, mine and many other peoples are different.

I mean, afterall ....... apparently being either ignorant of our history, incapable of seeing, or otherwise reasoning it out, you did have to ask, now didn't you ?

A fund raising sonnet written in the late 1800's should have nothing to do with today's immigration policy. Things have drastically changed since that was written. Our national immigration policy should be based on the needs and realities of today, not yesterdays. It should be founded in the scope of all of today's problems, not politics or sentimentality.

The above was fairly thoroughly covered by Turtle in his comments on your words quoted above so no need for me to rehash it again - other than to just hammer the point home yet again that you apparently have no understanding whatsoever of the connection between the sentiments expressed in the poem, and who we are as a people.

IOW .... clueless .....

(I must however note that in your response to him you largely managed to entirely sidestep and ignore the issues that he raised ..... as per the LOS usual)

I may have some additional comments on that response of yours after I've had some shuteye ....

Oh yeah, one other tiny little matter - the whole sentiments/sentimentality thing (which you appear to have a real problem with .... )

The words sentiment, sentimentality, derive ultimately from the Latin word sentire .... which interestingly enough, is the root word that the word sentient is also derived from .... you know: as in a sentient human being .... one who is conscious, aware, capable of experiencing sensation or feeling ....

If one is in that state (of being sentient) - and not all are - then one of the things that one just might be able to experience in terms of feeling ..... is some empathy for your fellow man .....

Just remember:

"From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded."

Choose wisely.

 

[layoutshooter]

Yeah, well ..... uhm ..... that is your OPINION, mine and many other peoples are different.

I mean, afterall ....... apparently being either ignorant of our history, incapable of seeing, or otherwise reasoning it out, you did have to ask, now didn't you ?


The above was fairly thoroughly covered by Turtle in his comments on your words quoted above so no need for me to rehash it again - other than to just hammer the point home yet again that you apparently have no understanding whatsoever of the connection between the sentiments expressed in the poem, and who we are as a people.

IOW .... clueless .....

(I must however note that in your response to him you largely managed to entirely sidestep and ignore the issues that he raised ..... as per the LOS usual)

I may have some additional comments on that response of yours after I've had some shuteye ....

Oh yeah, one other tiny little matter - the whole sentiments/sentimentality thing (which you appear to have a real problem with .... )

The words sentiment, sentimentality, derive ultimately from the Latin word sentire .... which interestingly enough, is the root word that the word sentient is also derived from .... you know: as in a sentient human being .... one who is conscious, aware, capable of experiencing sensation or feeling ....

If one is in that state (of being sentient) - and not all are - then one of the things that one just might be able to experience in terms of feeling ..... is some empathy for your fellow man .....

Just remember:

"From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded."

Choose wisely.

'
Keep the personal knocks out please. You can knock my OPINION all you want. You are not a superior being and your OPINION is NO more or less valid than mine. It is ONLY an opinion. It is based your life and education, nothing more. You also don't KNOW me, what I have done in my life, you have NO idea what empathy I may or may not have for my fellow man.

I have been GIVEN NOTHING in my life, I have EARNED EVERYTHING, both good and bad, that I have. I expect nothing less from everyone else, including immigrants.

I am REALLY confused about one thing though. It seems to me, unless I misunderstand, that both you and Turtle believe that I am opposed to immigration? Is that correct? I reread everything I posted in this thread, I never said that. All I said was that this problem needed fixed, that uncontrolled numbers will not work and controls were needed to insure the safety of the Nation. I believe that the borders should be CONTROLLED. I believe we should have standard American English (as opposed to what they speak in England) as a National language. How is that a lack of EMPATHY?

 

[layoutshooter]

So if the motel was prospering due to illegal traffic it should go down....

BTW...I came here for none of the above...

What do I see different? Nothing...

To answer that question..Canada deports illegals...like MOST other countries....

Yeah, but your goofy!! I mean after all, coming here legally, jumping through the hoops, earning your way through life, not DEMANDING RIGHTS that are not yours yet. How dumb. You are a CREDIT to the Country and welcome.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Hope no one misunderstands my feelings..the USA is a great country..I love it here as well....Not for its politics, not for its super power status...But the people....the people who work hard, support their families and just making their own way in their little part of their own land...

I detest people who live off the backs of any government as in the taxpayers of their own choice as an excuse to fail...we all pay for their shortcomings...

 

[layoutshooter]

Hope no one misunderstands my feelings..the USA is a great country..I love it here as well....Not for its politics, not for its super power status...But the people....the people who work hard, support their families and just making their own way in their little part of their own land...

I detest people who live off the backs of any government as in the taxpayers of their own choice as an excuse to fail...we all pay for their shortcomings...

Amen, Brother, Amen.

 

[layoutshooter]

I thought I said that rather well...


maybe I should put that in my sig line???

Good idea. Send it all over the world as well. This is a Nation where those who earn, get, those that do MORE, get MORE and DESERVE IT, those who don't, don't. If a person cannot live like that they are welcome to leave. There are many socialist meccas that they can leach off of else where.

 

[Turtle]

I am REALLY confused about one thing though. It seems to me, unless I misunderstand, that both you and Turtle believe that I am opposed to immigration? Is that correct?

I can't speak for RLENT, but as for myself, no, I do not believe that you are against immigration.

I believe, that you believe, that the immigration policy of this nation should not be based on what is reflected on the Statue of Liberty, that is to say, to allow the poor, downtrodden huddled masses yearning to be free to come here and attempt to make a better life for themselves, but rather you want very tightly controlled immigration as as to only allow in the "best people", and only allow immigrants to come here already bringing something to the table and then live their lives as you think they should, including not allowing them the freedom to not learn American English.

I believe, that you believe, that when people come here they should conform to what your definition of an American is. Freedom is as freedom does, and liberty allows for people to live their lives as they see fit.

Empathy by definition is identifying with or having an understanding of someone else's situation or feelings. I believe that you could care less about the feelings or situation of immigrants, and all that matters to you is that they assimilate in a manner you find acceptable.

We all agree that uncontrolled immigration and unsecured borders is a bad thing, but I believe that too many people, you included, use the pretext of controlling the borders and controlling immigration for the purposes of allowing in only the people who will come here and live by your standards.

I believe that when you say, "Our national immigration policy should be based on the needs and realities of today, not yesterdays. It should be founded in the scope of all of today's problems, not politics or sentimentality," that what you really mean is, you want things to go back to the way they were, back when your grandparents came here, when conforming and assimilation was a effectively a necessity for the immigrants, and because it no longer is, you want it to become a necessity again, even to the point of making it a requirement.

I've run into a lot of immigrants, and so far I haven't met one who wanted to do me or my country any harm. I'm sure there are some who do, but I gotta figure they're in the minority. Far as I can tell, they're all here doing the same as me, just trying to get by.

 

[cheri1122]

'
Keep the personal knocks out please. You can knock my OPINION all you want. You are not a superior being and your OPINION is NO more or less valid than mine. It is ONLY an opinion. It is based your life and education, nothing more. You also don't KNOW me, what I have done in my life, you have NO idea what empathy I may or may not have for my fellow man.
Au contraire: you've posted many, many, many [and still more!] comments on how you feel about 'your fellow man'. In your opinion, ALL elected officials are corrupt and/or incompetent, and ALL who are unemployed, homeless, and/or hungry are just lazy.
Not an angstrom of empathy to be found in those words, is there?

I have been GIVEN NOTHING in my life, I have EARNED EVERYTHING, both good and bad, that I have. I expect nothing less from everyone else, including immigrants.
I wouldn't know from personal experience, but I bet there's a lot of work involved in being a criminal, con artist, etc [unless they're Senators or Congressmen] so they probably believe they earn what they get, too.

I am REALLY confused about one thing though. It seems to me, unless I misunderstand, that both you and Turtle believe that I am opposed to immigration? Is that correct? I reread everything I posted in this thread, I never said that. All I said was that this problem needed fixed, that uncontrolled numbers will not work and controls were needed to insure the safety of the Nation. I believe that the borders should be CONTROLLED. I believe we should have standard American English (as opposed to what they speak in England) as a National language. How is that a lack of EMPATHY?

The empathy [or lack of] is culled from all your many [many many many] comments here, not just one post.

 

[LDB]

I don't care if they are "poor huddles masses" or whoever so long as they are not criminals and limited in number. Those are the big issues, the criminals (prior to coming here not just after they illegally come here and all are criminals) and the millions of them. We've got to make it workable to do it legally and lethally impossible to do it illegally.

 

[RLENT]

Keep the personal knocks out please.

Actually it wasn't so much a personal knock (believe me, if it were, you and everyone else here would know it - it would have been entirely unmistakable) .... as much as it was a precise and definitive statement of the exact situation:

You are (or were, assuming that in the interim you somehow managed to "get it") clueless with respect to significance of the poem, and how it relates to us as a country, and as a people.

There really wasn't much, if any, rancor involved - but I can certainly understand how you might have felt uncomfortable ..... with someone making the observation, and then stating it publically.

Funny story: my oldest when he was very young and still in diapers used to move behind the our living room couch when he ..... ahhh ..... had "to go" (take a dump) .... if my wife or myself would happen to observe this (even just silently, saying nothing) he would always say the same thing:

"Don't look" (at me ...)

He viewed the mere act of observation alone to be a threat or an attack .... pretty funny ....

A couple of comments on some of your previous statements:

The idea that someone's parents would actively limit their children's knowledge, education, and ability to speak other languages in an effort to enforce conformity and assimilation is something I find ...... rather odd ..... it is a rather authoritarian viewpoint (I'm trying to be extremely polite here)

I view individuals' backgrounds, cultures, languages, and heritages as something to be experienced and enjoyed ..... to be celebrated if you will ..... not something to be terrified of .... and eliminated .....

You (and some others' apparently) appear to view them as a threat ...... I actually find that to be .... well, hilarious .....

You also don't KNOW me, what I have done in my life, you have NO idea what empathy I may or may not have for my fellow man.

I think cheri covered this pretty well .... yes, it's true that we don't know the totality of your life .... but we do know something of you .... simply by what you post on here ....

I have been GIVEN NOTHING in my life, I have EARNED EVERYTHING, both good and bad, that I have.

Good for you .... you get a gold star next to your name.

Count yourself as extremely lucky that in your existence and life experience you were never faced with a situation at sometime or another that left you no alternative but to rely on someone else for your survival ....

I am REALLY confused about one thing though.

Only one ?

It seems to me, unless I misunderstand, that both you and Turtle believe that I am opposed to immigration? Is that correct?

Nope - see Turtles response, which pretty much covers it for me as well.

All I said was that this problem needed fixed, that uncontrolled numbers will not work and controls were needed to insure the safety of the Nation.

Well, suffice it to say that the level and nature of "control" that you would impose might far different than someone else ..... say, a more reasonable individual ...

I believe that the borders should be CONTROLLED.

Seems reasonable given the purpose of a border, that if one is going to have one, one ought to control it.

I believe we should have standard American English (as opposed to what they speak in England) as a National language.

Yeah, well .... there ya go with that authoritarian conformity bullcrap again ......

You seem to be a real big fan of that sort of thing ....... without ever realizing that that is exactly the thing which will eliminate freedom in the long run .....

How is that a lack of EMPATHY?

Perhaps that might be something for you to contemplate ..... long and hard .....

 

[aileron]

I don't know what the solution is, but I truly believe that the borders should be secured first, and then reform the immigration laws in a way to allow those 'tired' and 'poor' and 'homeless' to come here while preventing access to the criminals and people who would want us dead.

I am also an immigrant that was persecuted in my country just because I wanted to worship God in a way other than the communist government allowed me to. I am thankful that US accepted me as a refugee, where I could start all over in freedom. Many many others were not as lucky as I was. They were imprisoned, tortured, and some even died in prison. I would not have come here if I wasn't allowed to come legally. That is just the way I am. I would have found another place where I could have gone legally instead of coming here illegally.

Now, when I came here I could not speak a word in English, but I went to school in the mornings, worked in the evenings for minimum wage until I learned to speak and then I could go find better paying jobs. I did not come here to be a burden on anybody here.

What my problem is with the illegals coming here (and I know that not all of them are like this, but a few bad apples spoil.....) is that they have a right to be here and we need to learn their language and provide services to them. 2 months after I came here I went and got my drivers license. I literally translated that DMV booklet word by word and memorized it. Went and took the test in English, and passed, I did not expect them to test me in my language. I was so happy when I got out of there with my license, you couldn't believe it.

Have you been to Miami lately? I walked in a place to get a haircut and they started speaking Spanish to me. Are you kidding me? I was thinking that I might have crossed the border in another country, I really did not feel I was in the US.

And then the criminals... I don't know. What would you feel if your fiancee was abducted from a park parking lot in the plain daylight with tons of other cars around, thrown in a car and sexually assaulted by two of these illegal criminals? And could have ended up a lot worse probably if it wasn't for her keeping cool under all this and when they drove by a police car she broke the window. That got the cop's attention, and then a chase followed and finally she was set free.

So, somehow we need to find a way to let the good guys in (both rich and poor) while keeping the bad ones out. And we definitely cannot do that with an open border.

 

[Turtle]

The thing is, the immigration regulations already prevent aliens with criminal records from entering the country. But without secure borders, those regulations cannot be enforced. Once the borders are secured, the current immigration policies are not all that bad, maybe in need of a little tweaking, but for the most part they're fine. People talk about immigration reform, but frankly all that needs to be reformed is to start securing the borders and enforcing the current regulations.

 

[layoutshooter]

Never mind.

Cheri, you have no idea who I am, what I have done to or for people in my life. Don't assume anything, you do know what assume means. You would most likely be 100% wrong in your assumptions. I do have the documentation to back it up as well.


Control the borders, keep out criminals, all official business in American English. You all can do what ever you want. I don't give a flip. There is no use trying to explain, question, or explore. There is no point in trying to learn from anyone in here either. You all can pay for it, don't ask me too, I can no longer afford it. I have my wife to care for, period. That is all I can afford.

 

[layoutshooter]

I moved this here, thought it might be a better forum for this. Thanks for the lessons, Leo, you are a great teacher.

 

[cheri1122]

Never mind.

Cheri, you have no idea who I am, what I have done to or for people in my life.
I know only what you've posted - unless it was all lies [which I don't think is the case], then I have a fairly good idea of who you are.
Don't assume anything, you do know what assume means. You would most likely be 100% wrong in your assumptions.
You're positive my assumptions would be 100% wrong, but yours are correct - is that what you just said?
I do have the documentation to back it up as well.
Back what up, exactly? One of us isn't making sense here....

Control the borders, keep out criminals, all official business in American English. You all can do what ever you want. I don't give a flip. There is no use trying to explain, question, or explore. There is no point in trying to learn from anyone in here either.
Just a suggestion, but maybe if you actually tried to see someone else's point, [I often get the feeling you didn't even read the post you counter], you might learn something. I do, all the time, from many other opinions posted here.
You all can pay for it, don't ask me too, I can no longer afford it. I have my wife to care for, period. That is all I can afford.

Again: I agree with your position on border security. It's your oft repeated statement that the unemployed are just lazy that I disagree with - and I can document that they aren't - can you document your contention that they are?

 

[layoutshooter]

I did not say that unemployed people are lazy, I said that long term welfare bums are. BIG DIFFERENCE. Anyone can fall on hard times, it is what one does to get out, how much or how little they think they are "entitled to" that makes the difference. The more people feel that they are owed the less they do for themselves. The more they are "provided for" the less they do for themselves. A helping hand up is good, anything beyond that hurts those who you are trying to help. Teach, don't do for.

The documentation I meant was my service to other people, mostly strangers. That service was the ONLY assumption that I was talking about. I did not make that clear.

I do TRY to understand others opinion. In here it seems that is not easy since it seldom goes both ways. I can't write in flowery prose as some do. I see things based on my life experience, my education and my upbringing. It is far different that most others in here. I write in black and white. Most of my life was spent in a black and white world that consisted of only two choices, live or die. Nothing else. I had right and wrong. Nothing else.

I am a simple man. I deal with what I see. I take care of my own responsibilities. I help where and how I can as long as that help is not oppressive to those needing that help. I believe in the old saying about giving a man a fish. I would rather teach him to fish.

My experience tells me that there is little "luck" in life. We all make our own "luck". Just as there is little luck in hunting and fishing. The amount of "good luck" that you have, both in life and in the field, is directly connected to how much EFFORT you put into providing your self with "luck". The greater the effort, the more "luck" one has. That simple.

When a person screws up, don't blame someone else. Just shut up and fix it. No one is owed anything, other than the chance to live.