Bordering on Insanity

moose

Veteran Expediter
If you cross the North Korean border illegally you get 12 years hard labor.

If you cross the Iranian border illegally you are detained indefinitely.

If you cross the Afghan border illegally, you get shot.

If you cross the Saudi Arabian border illegally you will be jailed.

If you cross the Chinese border illegally you may never be heard from again.

If you cross the Venezuelan border illegally you will be branded a spy and your fate will be sealed.

If you cross the Cuban border illegally you will be thrown into political prison to rot.

If you cross the U.S. border illegally you get:

* a job,
* a drivers license,
* social security card,
* welfare,
* food stamps,
* credit cards,
* subsidized rent or a loan to buy a house,
* free education,
* free health care,
* a lobbyist in Washington
* billions of dollars worth of public documents printed in your language
* the right to carry your country's flag while you protest that you don't get enough respect
* and, in many instances, you can vote.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
It isn't bordering on insanity, it's total absolute insanity thanks to our INSANE liberal politicians.
 

louixo

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Leo...the problem is, few want to cross the border into the poopholes you mentioned. They want to come here. If I was an illegal, I'd want to come here. "The land of opportunity" with the best government money can buy.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yes, this is the place to be with anywhere else second place or worse. I don't blame the people for wanting to be here. I'd want it to if I was elsewhere. I blame the government for not maintaining sovereignty and border policy as they should.
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
Yes, this is the place to be with anywhere else second place or worse. I don't blame the people for wanting to be here. I'd want it to if I was elsewhere. I blame the government for not maintaining sovereignty and border policy as they should.

I too would want to be here if I was from another Country, But I would do it the "Legal" Way Like "Most" of the Immigrants have Done!
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I too would want to be here if I was from another Country, But I would do it the "Legal" Way Like "Most" of the Immigrants have Done!
You say that like it's a piece of cake to do it legally. For immediate relatives of US citizens wanting to get a Green Card, and for the limited Lottery and for things like Refugee and Asylum status, the numbers vary, but are rather small. For a job-related Green Card, each country regardless of size gets 7% of a 140,000 Green Cards issued annually, or 9,800 Green Cards per country. For a really small country the process isn't too bad, but for large countries, and for countries like Mexico where everyone is on the waiting list, it could be 10 or 20 years before you application is even considered, and then it could take years to get it approved. In the meantime, "preferred immigrants" like workers and professionals with advanced degrees, skilled workers (including those with bachelor degrees) and even unskilled workers with employer-sponsored jobs awaiting them here, are scarfing up most of the 9,800 slots.

We always here that Mexicans are doing jobs that Americans won't do, and it sounds like a load of crap, but it's actually a critical deal with immigration that at the very least needs to have lip service applied to it. Employers must file a labor certificate with the Department of Labor certifying that no qualified Americans are available or willing to do the job, and they must prove it, usually by showing proof of advertising for a specific job, and the skills and prevailing wages for the job. What they do is advertise for like a day for a job opening, and if anyone American actually shows up, they aren't hired because they aren't qualified for the job (or, more often, they're over qualified for the job and thus wouldn't be happy in their work), and then the door is open to say that these immigrants are doing the jobs that American's don't want. But all too often the Department of Labor step gets skipped and the reasoning gets applied to illegal aliens as a justification for hiring them. And of course by skipping the Department of Labor step, you can hire these illegals at far less than the prevailing wage than would be paid to legal immigrants or Americans.

If you are outside the country, like, say, in Peru, a country that doesn't come close to using up all its 9800 allotment, and aren't already here with a temporary Visa, and don't fall under the "preferred immigrant" classification, then you must apply through the consular process, which is insanely bureaucratic and can take a really long time.

So with 140,000 employment-based Green Cards being issued, and perhaps 50,000 or 60,000 other Green Cards going to others, I'm not sure that "most" immigrants are legal immigrants. I mean, I don't know the numbers, but it sure appears that at least 200,000 Mexicans alone cross the border illegally every year. Add to that those from Central and South America who find it easier and quicker to just walk across the border in the middle of the night, and those from other countries who just stay put when their temporary Visas expire.

The first step in any immigration "reform" is to secure the borders. Without secure borders, you don't have a handle on the situation and you don't have a clue as to what's going on. Until you do that, you can't even make intelligent decisions on what parts of immigration law needs to be reformed.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
While we do need to tighten up our immigration policies and secure the border, do we really want to emulate any of those hellholes in the list? I'm not sure this is a comparison or contrast we want to make.
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
You say that like it's a piece of cake to do it legally. For immediate relatives of US citizens wanting to get a Green Card, and for the limited Lottery and for things like Refugee and Asylum status, the numbers vary, but are rather small. For a job-related Green Card, each country regardless of size gets 7% of a 140,000 Green Cards issued annually, or 9,800 Green Cards per country. For a really small country the process isn't too bad, but for large countries, and for countries like Mexico where everyone is on the waiting list, it could be 10 or 20 years before you application is even considered, and then it could take years to get it approved. In the meantime, "preferred immigrants" like workers and professionals with advanced degrees, skilled workers (including those with bachelor degrees) and even unskilled workers with employer-sponsored jobs awaiting them here, are scarfing up most of the 9,800 slots.

We always here that Mexicans are doing jobs that Americans won't do, and it sounds like a load of crap, but it's actually a critical deal with immigration that at the very least needs to have lip service applied to it. Employers must file a labor certificate with the Department of Labor certifying that no qualified Americans are available or willing to do the job, and they must prove it, usually by showing proof of advertising for a specific job, and the skills and prevailing wages for the job. What they do is advertise for like a day for a job opening, and if anyone American actually shows up, they aren't hired because they aren't qualified for the job (or, more often, they're over qualified for the job and thus wouldn't be happy in their work), and then the door is open to say that these immigrants are doing the jobs that American's don't want. But all too often the Department of Labor step gets skipped and the reasoning gets applied to illegal aliens as a justification for hiring them. And of course by skipping the Department of Labor step, you can hire these illegals at far less than the prevailing wage than would be paid to legal immigrants or Americans.

If you are outside the country, like, say, in Peru, a country that doesn't come close to using up all its 9800 allotment, and aren't already here with a temporary Visa, and don't fall under the "preferred immigrant" classification, then you must apply through the consular process, which is insanely bureaucratic and can take a really long time.

So with 140,000 employment-based Green Cards being issued, and perhaps 50,000 or 60,000 other Green Cards going to others, I'm not sure that "most" immigrants are legal immigrants. I mean, I don't know the numbers, but it sure appears that at least 200,000 Mexicans alone cross the border illegally every year. Add to that those from Central and South America who find it easier and quicker to just walk across the border in the middle of the night, and those from other countries who just stay put when their temporary Visas expire.

The first step in any immigration "reform" is to secure the borders. Without secure borders, you don't have a handle on the situation and you don't have a clue as to what's going on. Until you do that, you can't even make intelligent decisions on what parts of immigration law needs to be reformed.

No, I Know It's Not a Cake Walk and there are Many Hurdles to get Over and Around, But that's all Part of wanting to be a Legal Citizen in Another Country Like the U.S.!
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
No, I Know It's Not a Cake Walk and there are Many Hurdles to get Over and Around, But that's all Part of wanting to be a Legal Citizen in Another Country Like the U.S.!
Yeah, I know it's all part of it. I was just commenting on your comment that you'd do it legally, like most other immigrants. It's easy for us to sit here and say that. I've said it myself. Why would anyone want to come here illegally when they can do so legally, unless they have something preventing them from immigrating here, like a felony record or something? Most illegals that come here have nothing in their history to prevent them from entering the country, yet the enter illegally, anyway. Why? You have to do more than ask why, you have to find out why. And the reasons are many, not the least of which is that for most people coming from a country like Mexico, it takes a ridiculously long time to get it approved. You can wait 10 or 20 years while you and your family are starving or are being threatened by drug cartels, or you can cross illegally and make a living and keep them alive.

We say...

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Except the Mexicans. Not so fast, You.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
We say...

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Except the Mexicans. Not so fast, You.
Been wantin' to pull the trigger on that one since at least late last week .... ya beat me to it tho' ..... ;)
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Been wantin' to pull the trigger on that one since at least late last week .... ya beat me to it tho' ..... ;)

What does a sonnet written by Emma Lazarus to help raise money to build the base for the Statue of Liberty have to do with U.S. immigration policy?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
What does a sonnet written by Emma Lazarus to help raise money to build the base for the Statue of Liberty have to do with U.S. immigration policy?
Once the plaque of the sonnet was placed onto the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty, 'The New Colossus' redefined the statue's purpose, turning Liberty into a symbol of hope to the outcasts and downtrodden of the world. Since then, US immigration policy has used the sentiment of 'The New Colossus' as its backbone.

However, after the turn of the century the older immigrants from northern Europe, almost all of them Protestant, didn't much like the trend of Catholics from eastern and southern Europe coming here, and Congress eventually passed Immigration Act of 1924, which strongly favored immigrant source countries that already had many immigrants in the U.S. by 1890, of which very few were Catholic. When you come right down to it, it was nothing more than Jim Crow Laws applied to immigration to keep the white protestants comfortable and in power. The Great Depression changed things a bit, since for several years in the 1930's there were more people emigrating from the US than immigrating to it. Immigration rose after that, but WWII changed things again, creating a lot of refugees that had to be dealt with, and the strict quotas of of the Immigration Act of 1924 made it difficult, but still those seeking refugee status were given preference within the quotas.

The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 (Hart-Celler Act, Hart being Emanuel Hart, D-NY, and Hart being Philip Hart, D-MI) removed the "National Origins Formula" that comprised the earlier Act. (The previous 1924 Act prevented many refugees from eastern Europe from immigrating during WWII.) Since then immigration has surged, and mostly from non-European countries, primarily Asia and Mexico.

The numbers have been tweaked since the Act, but basically it's supposed to be 140,000 immigrants per year, with "family reunification" immigration being unlimited. And despite increased border security after 9/11, nearly 8 million immigrants came to the United States from 2000 to 2005, more than in any other five-year period in our history, and almost half of them having entered illegally from Mexico.

Since 1998, Mexico, China, India and the Philippines are the top four on the sending country hit parade.

But the backbone of the sentiment of the Statue of Liberty is still there. Since WWII, more refugees have immigrated to the US than other nation, with more than two million refugees having arrived in the U.S. just since 1980.

Interestingly, the 1965 Act was heavily supported by Ted Kennedy, who was first elected to the Senate in 1964 (the Kennedy's, being Catholic, felt immigration reform that didn't clearly discriminate against Catholics was in order). He was the Floor Leader of the Bill, and in his speech regarding the Bill, said...

"First, our cities will not be flooded with a million immigrants annually. Under the proposed bill, the present level of immigration remains substantially the same.... Secondly, the ethnic mix of this country will not be upset.... Contrary to the charges in some quarters, [the bill] will not inundate America with immigrants from any one country or area, or the most populated and deprived nations of Africa and Asia.... In the final analysis, the ethnic pattern of immigration under the proposed measure is not expected to change as sharply as the critics seem to think.... It will not cause American workers to lose their jobs."
Whoops.

By equalizing immigration policies, the act resulted in new immigration from non-European nations which dramatically changed the ethnic demographics of the country. Immigration doubled between 1965 and 1970, and doubled again between 1970 and 1990, with the most dramatic effect being a massive immigration shift from Europe to Asia and Mexico. The percentage of white Americans has dropped dramatically over the last few decades, and arguably as a direct result of the Act of 1965, that's what got Obama elected.

Clearly, immigration needs another reform, but none of it will make any difference until the borders are secured.

Read something interesting yesterday, though, about what all has happened to Nogales and the areas up through Tucson and into Phoenix since the Arizona Law was signed (even though it doesn't even go into effect for a while). Motels and restaurants are empty. That big 97-room Comfort Inn two or three blocks from the border in Nogales has averaged 5-8 room occupancy per night since the bill was signed. Most nights it's in the 70-90 range.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
There is a GREAT need for immigration reform. There has been for a very long time. There are many reasons for it, not just the flood of illegals from Mexico or anywhere else for that matter.

Securing the borders must come first. That is NOT going to happen. Those in charge are only looking out for their good, not the good of the nation.

We no longer need huge numbers of unskilled or under educated labor. We have far too many legal citlizens in that class out of work now. A few million more will just add weight to the anchor.

We need immigration, not to provide cheap labor, not to shore up Social Security, not any of the stupid reasons you hear from immigration/open border groups or Washington. We need immigration because it brings in fresh ideas and "drive". Too many in our own country have become lazy and dependent on "freebies" and expect to be cared for. I see it in my own family.

We need to control the numbers that come in. We need to have control of health issues as well as insure, as much as possible, that terrorists and others that might do harm from the nation are excluded.

I don't think that we are going to see a smart, well thought out plan come out of Washington. That would not be in their best interest. They will use this to help insure their power and line their pockets. Those in power today, much like in the days past, are not interested in the "good of the nation" or the good of those of us here.

Poetry, plaques and "feel good" politics should not be dictating immigration policy.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Read something interesting yesterday, though, about what all has happened to Nogales and the areas up through Tucson and into Phoenix since the Arizona Law was signed (even though it doesn't even go into effect for a while). Motels and restaurants are empty. That big 97-room Comfort Inn two or three blocks from the border in Nogales has averaged 5-8 room occupancy per night since the bill was signed. Most nights it's in the 70-90 range.
Dunno about the Comfort Inn or the local occupancy rates in the area, but I do know this - the Nogales area seems to be booming ....

I spent yesterday afternoon and evening down at the Super Walmart ..... after my nap I went in around 21:30 local time and did a little shopping and then came back out and fixed dinner ..... the place was packed and jumpin' until way late.

Earlier I had been to the Safeway and saw something I thought was really cool ..... I was walking back out with my Starbucks and there was a nice SUV parked about 5 spaces up from me that walked past on the way to my truck.

The vehicle had Sonora (Mexico) plates on it ...... and on the rear window there was a huge, stylized, United States flag .....

Wish I had taken a picture ..... :D
 

Jack_Berry

Moderator Emeritus
don't tell me about hurdles. my grt grandmother came from sweden, raised 9 children on a farm in the early 1900's. she died a citizen at 101.

my in laws emigrated in 1961. only my fil spoke english. gracie was 8. sister was 4. mom was 39. completely foreign world for them. no help. no social services. no online help. girls learned english and prejudice in elementary school. mom learned english from soaps and reading the newspaper:eek: and by people speaking louder to her when she didn't understand, like she was deaf.

his motto was....we didn't come here to be danes in america we came to be americans. different motto from many illegals today.

gracie and sis became citizens thru their parents. then when they were adults got their own paper. depends on you outlook and desire.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
To the utterly clueless ...... apparently nothing ....


I am not clueless. A fund raising sonnet written in the late 1800's should have nothing to do with today's immigration policy. Things have drastically changed since that was written.

Our national immigration policy should be based on the needs and realities of today, not yesterdays. It should be founded in the scope of all of today's problems, not politics or sentimentality.
 
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