Babies or tissue?

[cheri1122]

So we don't even try and we just keep trying the same old things that have worked so well ever since the great society initiated them. Great plan. I'm sure we'll get different results any day now. I'll continue "encouraging" my semi-worthless critters to do something about the criminals anyway.

But we haven't been trying the same old things - we've turned a blind eye to what Wall St, the banks, insurance companies, and corporations are doing to warp the 'free market' and keep wages artificially low.
We're keeping our mouths shut while workers are defrauded and disparaged and demoralized by low wages and no benefits, and the 'haves' are promoting amnesty to keep up the cheap labor supply.
Americans can't find decent jobs, or afford to buy homes or go to college, and it's not because they don't want to work, it's because they've been betrayed by the same government that is supposed to represent them, because that's what they paid for it to do. And by the companies that cheat their employees in every way they can, because they can.
Lawyers can stop them, but that's just sticking a finger in the dike - as long as cheating and taking advantage is expected, it will only get worse.

 

[layoutshooter]

You're welcome to your opinions, but there is nothing in the way of data or facts to support them, [the ones that aren't just meaningless sayings, like "freedom ALWAYS works better than force"] which means they're as useful as the Easter Bunny in deciding how the issues can be resolved - or even improved.
Trite sayings don't pay people's bills, or improve anyone's life. Jobs do that. Jobs that pay enough to pay the bills and the education that will improve their lives..
We don't have enough of those to go around, and that's the bottom line.

You then approve of the idea that only an armed government agency can advance people and that they are unable to do so on their own?

How much force do YOU think they should use to insure that YOUR ideas are put into place. Should they use lethal force or just prison?

You believe that people cannot make it on their own, I believe that most can. You believe that government is the answer and that if enough force is applied to insure that every one agrees with it all would be well. I believe that is part and parcel of Marxism. The use of force to install their ideas. They have always done that and are doing it here, now.

 

[cheri1122]

You then approve of the idea that only an armed government agency can advance people and that they are unable to do so on their own?

How much force do YOU think they should use to insure that YOUR ideas are put into place. Should they use lethal force or just prison?

You believe that people cannot make it on their own, I believe that most can. You believe that government is the answer and that if enough force is applied to insure that every one agrees with it all would be well. I believe that is part and parcel of Marxism. The use of force to install their ideas. They have always done that and are doing it here, now.

Dude, I don't know whose words you're reading, but what you claim I believe is just completely fabricated in your own mind.
I never said it, or implied it - you just make stuff up.

 

[pandora2112]

So let's continue to over populate the world and abolish welfare...yeah that'll work.
Abortion isn't my choice personally but I'm not going to say outlaw abortions because then poverty climbs even higher, back room coat hanger abortions will happen (or be on the rise) which will cause deaths and other issues. What do say to a young girl who's been raped? Sorry you have to carry that child because someone's religious views dictate abortion is wrong...I have to say that's wrong!
Maybe people should quit judging those who have chosen to have an abortion until they've stood in that persons shoes.

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[LDB]

Yeah, you're right. The hell with that person that's murdered for convenience. That's good though, playing the rape card which is an incredibly small percentage of abortions. That's almost as good as the race card. The hell with babies. They don't deserve to live. They don't deserve to have a life and a future. The hell with all of them. Abortions for anyone. Abortions for everyone. Hell, let's give a 30 day trial period. After all, the first 30 days are nothing more than eating and pooping. If it turns out the baby is inconvenient they can just kill it within the first 30 days. It's just another late term abortion after all. Yeah, you murder advocates are right after all. The hell with babies. Kill any and all that anyone wants to kill.

 

[pandora2112]

Not what I'm saying at all...but the rate states are going it won't matter if it is rape or if the pregnancy endangers the mothers life, no abortion no way no how. I personally wouldn't have an abortion, I didn't as a teenager. I raised my oldest son as a single parent at first working two jobs to not be a welfare mom...but that's my personal choice. I can't force my beliefs on others, whether I think I'm morally right or not. If you've never been pregnant and alone, confused, too young, poor or whatever the situation may be for someone choosing abortion you can't judge them with a holier than thou attitude.

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[skyraider]

Not what I'm saying at all...but the rate states are going it won't matter if it is rape or if the pregnancy endangers the mothers life, no abortion no way no how. I personally wouldn't have an abortion, I didn't as a teenager. I raised my oldest son as a single parent at first working two jobs to not be a welfare mom...but that's my personal choice. I can't force my beliefs on others, whether I think I'm morally right or not. If you've never been pregnant and alone, confused, too young, poor or whatever the situation may be for someone choosing abortion you can't judge them with a holier than thou attitude.

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You are a brave lady....................

 

[layoutshooter]

So let's continue to over populate the world and abolish welfare...yeah that'll work.
Abortion isn't my choice personally but I'm not going to say outlaw abortions because then poverty climbs even higher, back room coat hanger abortions will happen (or be on the rise) which will cause deaths and other issues. What do say to a young girl who's been raped? Sorry you have to carry that child because someone's religious views dictate abortion is wrong...I have to say that's wrong!
Maybe people should quit judging those who have chosen to have an abortion until they've stood in that persons shoes.

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First off, under the Constitution, abortion SHOULD be a STATE issue, not a federal issue. I don't believe there is any way that one could equate the legality of abortion to poverty levels. Abortion has been legal for a long time and poverty rates continue to climb, even during times of high employment. As for abolishing welfare, I contend, that welfare, as we have it today, is a major contributor to poverty. It is designed to keep people dependent.

Question, you don't believe that people who are opposed to abortion should FORCE their believes on others, which I understand. Therefor I would assume that those who agree with abortion etc, should not FORCE their beliefs on those who don't? Should a person who is, under their moral code, opposed to abortion for birth control, be FORCED to pay for it? If they are opposed to artificial contraception, should they be FORCED to pay for it? Because, that is what we have now. People/companies are being FORCED to do EXACTLY that. Is that right?

 

[layoutshooter]

Dude, I don't know whose words you're reading, but what you claim I believe is just completely fabricated in your own mind.
I never said it, or implied it - you just make stuff up.

Those were questions I asked, I don't know what you believe.

 

[runrunner]

See post #27! That's Freedom!

 

[layoutshooter]

See post #27!

All good, EXCEPT, there needs to be another one. Don't want it? Don't like it? Don't believe in it? Don't need it? DON'T be FORCED to pay for it!

 

[pandora2112]

First off, under the Constitution, abortion SHOULD be a STATE issue, not a federal issue. I don't believe there is any way that one could equate the legality of abortion to poverty levels. Abortion has been legal for a long time and poverty rates continue to climb, even during times of high employment. As for abolishing welfare, I contend, that welfare, as we have it today, is a major contributor to poverty. It is designed to keep people dependent.

Question, you don't believe that people who are opposed to abortion should FORCE their believes on others, which I understand. Therefor I would assume that those who agree with abortion etc, should not FORCE their beliefs on those who don't? Should a person who is, under their moral code, opposed to abortion for birth control, be FORCED to pay for it? If they are opposed to artificial contraception, should they be FORCED to pay for it? Because, that is what we have now. People/companies are being FORCED to do EXACTLY that. Is that right?

I don't think anyone should be forced to pay for abortions...I completely understand their opposition and forcing them to pay for what accounts to murder in their eyes is absolutely wrong IMO.

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[layoutshooter]

I don't think anyone should be forced to pay for abortions...I completely understand their opposition and forcing them to pay for what accounts to murder in their eyes is absolutely wrong IMO.

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Thank you for a straight, honest, answer. I KNEW I could count on you to take my questions in the spirit that they were meant. I know we differ on the issue but we understand each others position.

 

[LDB]

You can tell yourself that isn't what you are saying. You may even convince yourself that isn't what you are saying. But what abortion says is that life is meaningless. It has no value. It has no standing. Abortion says that someone can decide for someone else if their life will be valuable, if their life will amount to something, if their life will have enough meaning to be allowed.

Well I don't think John Doe's life and Jane Smith's life and several other's lives have value or meaning. Their lives aren't amounting to what they should. They are in poverty or they are only average or below or they aren't rocket scientists. So I've decided they should be terminated right now because they don't measure up to my standards and my requirements.

That's total bullshi just like it's total bullshi when abortion supporters allow a woman to say it. It's not my life to make that choice about John Doe or Jane Smith. It's not the woman's life to say it about the unborn person. Tell yourself whatever you want. Disagree all you want. It's your right and privilege to be wrong.

 

[spongebox1]

You can tell yourself that isn't what you are saying. You may even convince yourself that isn't what you are saying. But what abortion says is that life is meaningless. It has no value. It has no standing. Abortion says that someone can decide for someone else if their life will be valuable, if their life will amount to something, if their life will have enough meaning to be allowed.

Well I don't think John Doe's life and Jane Smith's life and several other's lives have value or meaning. Their lives aren't amounting to what they should. They are in poverty or they are only average or below or they aren't rocket scientists. So I've decided they should be terminated right now because they don't measure up to my standards and my requirements.

That's total bullshi just like it's total bullshi when abortion supporters allow a woman to say it. It's not my life to make that choice about John Doe or Jane Smith. It's not the woman's life to say it about the unborn person. Tell yourself whatever you want. Disagree all you want. It's your right and privilege to be wrong.

Nazi Germany called and they want you back at home with all the other socialist thinkers, for someone who wants no welfare and talks about killing people all the time its ironic you find abortion so morally wrong!

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[layoutshooter]

Kinda lost me on one point. Welfare IS socialist/Marxist thinking. Would being opposed to that not be the OPPOSITE of socialist/Marxist thinking? What I am missing?

 

[pandora2112]

Kinda lost me on one point. Welfare IS socialist/Marxist thinking. Would being opposed to that not be the OPPOSITE of socialist/Marxist thinking? What I am missing?

With Spongebox it's not what you're missing...it's what he's missing, he's a.d.d and still upset about the missing meat!

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[layoutshooter]

With Spongebox it's not what you're missing...it's what he's missing, he's a.d.d and still upset about the missing meat!

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LOL!! I THINK I understand!

 

[spongebox1]

Kinda lost me on one point. Welfare IS socialist/Marxist thinking. Would being opposed to that not be the OPPOSITE of socialist/Marxist thinking? What I am missing?

I'm not debating welfare ( I agree on that ) I'm debating the desire for the state to decide what a woman does with their own body, look at Nazi Germany and the Lebensborn program, the state decided what a woman did with there own bodies, its not a question of morals but personal choices if they start telling you no abortion then how long before they start telling you when you have a child and then the take said child for the good of the state? Not only Nazi Germany tried and succeeded at this but many communist societies as well. If a woman wants an abortion they should carry the burden of moral alongside of financial as well

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[Turtle]

Abortion says that someone can decide for someone else if their life will be valuable, if their life will amount to something, if their life will have enough meaning to be allowed.

Prohibiting abortion says exactly the same thing.

You plainly state that it's not your "life to make that choice about John Doe or Jane Smith," but somehow think it is, in fact, your life to make the same exact choice for the woman who is pregnant. You say, "It's not the woman's life to say it about the unborn person," yet for some reason you think it's yours. That's arrogance on an unimaginably large scale, and it's arrogance you would not put up with if it were imposed on you, which makes it hypocrisy on the same scale.

Tell yourself whatever you want. Disagree all you want. It's your right and privilege to be wrong.

Ironic, isn't it?


On a side note... Nazi Germany? Really?

Godwin's Law: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

In other words, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis.

Don't be that someone.