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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Like I said, you're either you're running under your own authority and all of the freedoms and risks that come with it, or you are running under someone else's authority and policies.
Not necessarily exactly or entirely true - because sometimes, some carriers, don't define policies with respect to certain things ... and if I'm leased on to one of them, at that point I have the freedom (there's that dirty little word again) to define my own policy.
Actually, it is both exactly and entirely true. Running under an authority is an either/or proposition, no exceptions. You're either running under your own authority, or the authority of someone else. That's a statement that stands on its own, until you start to redefine and restate it by adding in limitations or variables, like "sometimes".

Like, if a carrier doesn't have a policy to cover a given situation, then that's a policy in and of itself. Granted, you are free to formulate your own policy to cover a situation the carrier doesn't cover, but that's only for as long as your own policy doesn't conflict with some other policy of the carrier. But you are still running under their authority, their policies, their constraints, even though those policies and constraints may seemingly or actually be non-existent.

You can try to redefine what I said to mean what you want it to mean, but in the end I said what I said, and intended exactly what I intended ....
You mean like when I said you can't have it both ways, and then you introduced a brand new variable not present in my statement in order to refute the meaning of my original statement?
Got it. :D

Now understand mine: some carriers permit more individual liberty than others do - although some would prefer that were not the case apparently.
No disagreement there at all, especially since my original statement of, "In this business, Liberty depends on who's authority you are running under," means precisely that, that some carriers will give you more Liberty than will other carriers. You have a choice, you can remain totally free with your own authority and no carrier constraints, or you can choose to be chained and shackled under the authority of a carrier's constraints, whatever they may or may not be. But I promise you, you can't have it both ways where you are leased to a carrier and have no limitations or constraints of the same manner that having your own authority provides. Everything else is merely different degrees of freedom and is part of what goes into which carrier is the best fit for you.

For example, I don't particularly like some of the restrictions placed on me by Panther, but they make up for it in other ways, by and large, at least to the point where the limitations placed on me isn't a deal breaker.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Far be it from me to defend Panther, but, uhm, "arbitrary" constraints?

Granted, I'm not intimately familiar with each and every one of the definitions of "arbitrary", but as far as I know, "something I don't understand or agree with" isn't one of them. Unreasonable is one of them, and not agreeing with it doesn't make it unreasonable, either. Unsupported is one of them, and I guarantee you Panther can, absolutely, support their decision to limit cargo vans. The rules for limiting cargo vans are in black and white and are not applied in an arbitrary manner, either.

When the carrier gets sued because a van driver kills someone after driving for longer than a certain time (which has happened twice that I know of), and when freight ends up being delivered late by a driver who didn't properly police themselves and ended up oversleeping while on a break (which has, in fact, happened to people who will tell you straight up that they've never been late), the case for regulating a cargo van is both supported and reasonable, and not at all arbitrary.

As for being economically disadvantaged, thank you for opening my eyes. I had no idea I was broke and doing so poorly.
I didn't interpret any of your remarks as whining. You make the system work wonderfully for yourself. The incessant whining comes from those who sit in parking lots and watch loads get awarded to other carriers.
 

aileron

Expert Expediter
I am all for safety, but I fail to understand how some of these policies increase the safety factor. I don't even want to think about a 1000 miles run straight through, even though I can do it with a few power naps, it is not good for my health.
I have a big problem with the scheduled breaks. At my last carrier on this particular run I got a phone call informing me that I need to pull over and take a 5 hour break. At that time I was not tired at all, maybe 2 hours later I would have been, but not then. So, I pulled over and spent more than 3 hours of the 5 just sitting there. Then, after the 5 hours were up I started driving and eventually I started being sleepy, but I had to finish the run sleepy because they forced me to stop when I wasn't sleepy, but I had to do it because their computer told them so.
 

sockhat

Seasoned Expediter
I agree with rhent, bolt always gives us plenty of time on long lds that we can stop and take a nap. Even if they tell you it's a straight thru. You can drive the avg speed limit and still have enough of a window to stop and take a nap. They do not expect or ask you to drive in unsafe conditions.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
...So, I pulled over and spent more than 3 hours of the 5 just sitting there. Then, after the 5 hours were up I started driving and eventually I started being sleepy, but I had to finish the run sleepy because they forced me to stop when I wasn't sleepy, but I had to do it because their computer told them so.
That's the perfect example of how an otherwise good rule is badly applied, without intelligence or common sense. The rule in and of itself is not a bad one, but if it is applied blindly and without thought, it becomes retarded.
 

CharlesD

Expert Expediter
Yes it does, but if you stop for a 2 hour break before your scheduled 4 hour break, you lose time on the computer that calculates your ETA and you will then be swapped. So you are forced to drive straight through till the break in order to keep ahead of your ETA. If you get close to or behind your computer calculated ETA, you will be swapped.

And here is the problem with said unnamed carrier, someone I have done quite a few loads for as a partner. Their dispatch people live by that computer that tells them the ETA for the truck, based on 45 mph. I can't tell you how many times I've given them a position update over the phone and been told that I'm two hours behind while my gps is showing me at least a couple hours ahead.

Anyway, if someone has enough time on a load to take a 4 hour break and still make the delivery on time, should it not be up to the driver when to take that break. Should the driver not be allowed to take the break when he most needs it? My worst hours for driving are between 2-6 am, so should I not be allowed to sleep during that time instead of at some other time the carrier deems that I'm ahead of their so called schedule?
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I will send the following message (posted below) over the QC when I determine it's warranted. It seems to work almost 100% of the time. I just wish the QC gave us a way to store a few canned messages of our own that we can paste and send when we want to without retyping the whole thing. Anyway, this works pretty well when needed. They usually don't want to do something that clearly goes against safety issues. I also have no problem telling them I'm not tired and plan to drive a little farther before stopping if I'm feeling like it.

FYI.. Do not reply to this message. FYI to dispatch and safety. I am currently 4.3 hours ahead of schedule. For safety reasons I am stopping for a 3 hour nap. I will resume driving at xx:xx with 1.3 hours of cushion. Again, do not reply on QC and do not call me or you will disturb my 3 hour safety time. This is a safety issue. If you choose to call me at xx:xx feel free to do so but again, any contact before then will be reported to safety as disregarding the safety of the load and operator and disturbing a needed rest time. Thank you.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I am all for safety, but I fail to understand how some of these policies increase the safety factor.

A lot of companies don't trust the drivers.

It is all that simple. It is better to have a solid policy that meets the requirements of the insurance company than to allow risks to grow.

Here is the key to all of this.

Many love the idea that they fly outside of the regulations but scream and cry when a company enforces a REASONABLE policy.

They seem to be the problem at that point because they don't get how easy this is to get into, how many p*ss poor drivers are out on the road who should not drive in the first place and how the companies look at vans as CHEAP way to move freight - all mitigating factors why these policies are there.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
FYI.. Do not reply to this message. FYI to dispatch and safety. I am currently 4.3 hours ahead of schedule. For safety reasons I am stopping for a 3 hour nap. I will resume driving at xx:xx with 1.3 hours of cushion. Again, do not reply on QC and do not call me or you will disturb my 3 hour safety time. This is a safety issue. If you choose to call me at xx:xx feel free to do so but again, any contact before then will be reported to safety as disregarding the safety of the load and operator and disturbing a needed rest time. Thank you.
Translated by Panther: "I'm tired and need a break."

And the response will be to not let you drive any further now that you've mentioned that you're tired and need a break, because when you're tired and need a break you need at least a 5 hour break, and if they let you drive any further and you get into an accident, the DOT will pull all QC and phone records and will say that Panther allowed you to drive in a fatigued state, therefore, the load swaps ASAP, or sooner, and at the absolute closest possible location. End of discussion.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Where did the 5 hours comes from in the first place?..
Who or what criteria was used to say that 5 hours of rest and you are good to go?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Where did the 5 hours comes from in the first place?..
Who or what criteria was used to say that 5 hours of rest and you are good to go?
5 hours is the amount of time that will reduce the amount of liability for the carrier when balanced with getting the load delivered on time. :D
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
That's the perfect example of how an otherwise good rule is badly applied, without intelligence or common sense.
Rules, regulations, and laws are always a substitute for intelligence and common sense ..... always .... simply because they implement a fixed response to a particular set of defined criteria ..... in this case the elapse of a certain amount of time from a particular event.

Rules, regulations, and laws by definition have no intelligence or common sense ..... people (beings) are the only things that have the potential to have intelligence and common sense ..... because they can observe, evaluate, and then decide ...

The rule in and of itself is not a bad one, but if it is applied blindly and without thought, it becomes retarded.
The devil is always in the details, and in the case of rules, regulations, and laws, always in the application ...

The above (quoted) statement brings us to the matter of who should be applying the rule - the individual who is in the position of having the most insight, and the most intimate knowledge, of whether the rule should be applied, and when ........

Or someone else, who being far removed from the scene, is for all practical purposes, generally speaking, is not even capable of any actual direct observation (for the most part) of the various conditions which would determine whether applying the rule at any given point makes sense in a particular specific situation ....

Of course, at the point where one starts talking about whether or not to apply a rule, one is really no longer talking about a rule per se, but only about a general guiding policy .......
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
5 hours is the amount of time that will reduce the amount of liability for the carrier when balanced with getting the load delivered on time. :D
A good attorney, presenting before a jury of common everyday folk, would eat that argument for lunch in a New York minute ....

In practice, the only thing that the above will deliver in terms of reduced liability is: "Yeah .... we at least did something (and not nothing) ....."
 
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Humble2drive

Expert Expediter
. . .

FYI.. Do not reply to this message. FYI to dispatch and safety. I am currently 4.3 hours ahead of schedule. For safety reasons I am stopping for a 3 hour nap. I will resume driving at xx:xx with 1.3 hours of cushion. Again, do not reply on QC and do not call me or you will disturb my 3 hour safety time. This is a safety issue. If you choose to call me at xx:xx feel free to do so but again, any contact before then will be reported to safety as disregarding the safety of the load and operator and disturbing a needed rest time. Thank you.


That's a hoot! Can I borrow that?

That said. Are you going by the arrival time on your GPS?? Because the GPS has no clue that there can be slower speed limits, traffic lights,traffic problems, weather delays, construction, bathroom stops, fuel stops etc. and that is what the time "built in" to the run by the Fed is for.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
FYI.. Do not reply to this message. FYI to dispatch and safety. I am currently 4.3 hours ahead of schedule. For safety reasons I am stopping for a 3 hour nap. I will resume driving at xx:xx with 1.3 hours of cushion. Again, do not reply on QC and do not call me or you will disturb my 3 hour safety time. This is a safety issue. If you choose to call me at xx:xx feel free to do so but again, any contact before then will be reported to safety as disregarding the safety of the load and operator and disturbing a needed rest time. Thank you.

I am glad you said "almost 100 percent of the time".
I know a fleet owner who had a driver who sent something similar and the carrier in turn sent a tow truck.
Didn't actually tow the truck but billed the fleet owner 300 for the tow truck to go out to the location.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I use the combination of the gps estimate and my knowledge and experience to come up with the time remaining. Obviously a wreck closing down the interstate can't be predicted but that can happen whether there's a rest stop, fuel stop, pit stop, bus stop, taxi stop, door stop or any other stop.

I've had a phone call after the message. I've had the QC go off after the message. I've never had a wrecker show up and never lost the load to swapping though. I've probably been fortunate to mostly have the message received by one of the more intelligent members of the office crew.

I wouldn't pay them if they did something stupid like sending a tow truck without my prior authorization.
 
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davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I don't think they had a choice if I recall. The carrier paid for it and deducted it from their settlement.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yeah, I'm sure it went that way but I'd be on them incessantly until they returned the money or I'd be gone the next week, one or the other.
 

Dreamer

Administrator Emeritus
Charter Member
Aren't you glad we're all different? LOL... sheesh..

That being said... as one of those FedEx drivers who sits whining... :) I seem to be making do just fine.. without forcing myself to run 1600 miles straight thru ... that's just plain stupid. Now I grant, that someone in excellent shape mentally and physically MAY be able to do that with a couple power naps.. but I would submit you could not do it regularly.

And Aristotle.. lil prejudice there towards the fat guys? LOL... Which would you rather have on the road... a fat guy with good bp, good heart, low cholestrol, no sugar probs, properly rested and running within his limits (ME)... or a skinny guy with High BP, 300 Cholestrol, chokin down that greaseburger and 5 hr energy drinks to stay awake?

Yep, anyone who knows me knows I'm a big guy .. but... I will also submit I'm not the stereotype. I used to be... but I'm way better than I used to be...Except for my size, my health is excellent, I'm usually parked the furthest away, and it annoys me to see a dirty stinkin fat guy parked on the fuel island, or right by the door!


And yes, I will have strong words of condemnation for those who run tired. I've seen the devastation it cause when it catches up with them. And it will. No one can run like that continuously. Occasionally .. sure.. but not continuously.


Dale
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Aren't you glad we're all different? LOL... sheesh..

That being said... as one of those FedEx drivers who sits whining... :) I seem to be making do just fine.. without forcing myself to run 1600 miles straight thru ... that's just plain stupid. Now I grant, that someone in excellent shape mentally and physically MAY be able to do that with a couple power naps.. but I would submit you could not do it regularly.

And Aristotle.. lil prejudice there towards the fat guys? LOL... Which would you rather have on the road... a fat guy with good bp, good heart, low cholestrol, no sugar probs, properly rested and running within his limits (ME)... or a skinny guy with High BP, 300 Cholestrol, chokin down that greaseburger and 5 hr energy drinks to stay awake?

Yep, anyone who knows me knows I'm a big guy .. but... I will also submit I'm not the stereotype. I used to be... but I'm way better than I used to be...Except for my size, my health is excellent, I'm usually parked the furthest away, and it annoys me to see a dirty stinkin fat guy parked on the fuel island, or right by the door!


And yes, I will have strong words of condemnation for those who run tired. I've seen the devastation it cause when it catches up with them. And it will. No one can run like that continuously. Occasionally .. sure.. but not continuously.


Dale

Dale... no one gets 1600 mile runs continuously. It's a fluke to get more than one a month. No one at my carrier is forced to take a run they don't want or feels too tired to take. If we become tired enroute, it's either stop for sleep or swap the load. I welcome long runs, but don't want them back-to-back.

What aggitates me, is watching 3 or 4 moderators, primarily FedEx drivers, who want to run the entire industry the "FedEX Way." In my opinion, many carriers do expedite differently and better. I worked at P2 seven years and FEDCC for six months. They are fine companies, but they don't have a monopoly on good sense. The insurance industry sets the parameters.

I am firmly convinced this harping at my carrier's policies are deeply rooted in jealousy cloaked as a pretense to "safety." My carrier, insofaras I know, has a fine safety record and they are primarily a van company. I like my carrier and their policies suit me. I don't imagine they, as paid advertisers on this website, particularly enjoy watching moderators excoriate their company or contractors. There has been enough of that.

I wish you all possible good health and acknowledge your commitment to safe driving.
 
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