Are you an employee?

[CharlesD]

I've been seeing an awful lot of employee speak on here lately. How many of you actually are employees? If you drive someone else's truck, then you are en employee...but of that truck owner, not the expedite company. But a lot of other people who are leased on to a company are speaking like they're employees of that company. Maybe I'm just being too pedantic here, but it kind of bugs me.

If you're leased to Panther, they can't fire you. They can terminate your contract, but they can't fire you. The end result might be the same, but not really. You still have your business but you just lost a customer. Now you have to sell your services to another customer, i.e. another expedite company. That company is your customer, not your employer. You can lose the contract, but they can't fire you.

Bottom line. You're a business owner who can have employees, but you're not an employee.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

You usually speak clearer Charles...that was confusing but point made again and again and again....

Any how..I sign a contract with a carrier that will find me frieght at the rate that I need to run my business or agreed apon rate...THEY work for me...I work for them...The customer whether consignee or shipper pays said carrier...which takes thier pay out and forwards the rest to me...
Bottomline...one can't do without the other....

You're right Charles too many carriers want to control us as in employees...The recruiters lip the words but dispatch doesn't know them....

 

[jaminjim]

Most people driving for a fleet owner are no different than an O/O they are for the most part independent contractors.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Most people driving for a fleet owner are no different than an O/O they are for the most part independent contractors.

Sub-contractor.....comes to mind...totally indepentent as the owner....contracting out thier driving skills.

Think of a construction site...where a bulder holds the main contract....and they in turn sub-contract to specific skills. Each offering thier services at a negotiated rate.

 

[greg334]

Think of a construction site...where a bulder holds the main contract....and they in turn sub-contract to specific skills. Each offering thier services at a negotiated rate.

This by far is the best explanation I have seen yet.

 

[Jefferson3000]

I think Charles was pretty clear, just probably a bit P.O.ed right now at what I call the "mommy culture."

 

[CharlesD]

I think Charles was pretty clear, just probably a bit P.O.ed right now at what I call the "mommy culture."

That's pretty much it. People still think like employees and approach the business relationship as an employer/employee relationship instead of a business to business relationship. If you're leased on somewhere, you are a business providing a service to another business that is in turn providing a service to you. It's a contract that is mutually beneficial if both parties are doing what they should be doing. You agree to haul freight for whatever rate and they agree to find you the freight to haul. The only difference between a leased on O/O and an independent is the number of customers. (and the insurance costs and what not, but that's a different topic) Every entity that I haul something for, whether it be another carrier brokering the load to me or a direct client, is a customer. When I was leased on, I had one customer to service, now I have many. Bottom line is I'm a business owner. I haven't been an employee since I left my desk job three years ago.

 

[nobb4u]

I agree with you and it really bugs me when people complain that the company doesn't care about their drivers. I am leased to FDCC and to the best of my knowledge FDCC has NO drivers. I am the only one who cares about my drivers (Bob and I) we are they only drivers in my company and I care very much about them. And if the broker I am leased to doesn't keep me busy at a decent rate then I go look for a new BROKER. Because this is what all these companies are, brokers for freight that we contract to haul.

As for sub-contractors (people who drive other people's trucks) especially people who have a sub-contractor working as a co-driver, if FedEx Ground contract drivers can be declared employees in California then I would be very careful how I handled my sub-contractors. I believe if you are an owner and have someone working as a co-driver with you then they are employees because you make all decision as to where and when you work and that makes them employees. This can be a very expensive mistake especially if you fire them and they apply for unemployment and you argue they are not. The fines are expensive and then the IRS and SS come looking for you too. As always JMHO

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I agree with you and it really bugs me when people complain that the company doesn't care about their drivers. I am leased to FDCC and to the best of my knowledge FDCC has NO drivers. I am the only one who cares about my drivers (Bob and I) we are they only drivers in my company and I care very much about them. And if the broker I am leased to doesn't keep me busy at a decent rate then I go look for a new BROKER. Because this is what all these companies are, brokers for freight that we contract to haul.

As for sub-contractors (people who drive other people's trucks) especially people who have a sub-contractor working as a co-driver, if FedEx Ground contract drivers can be declared employees in California then I would be very careful how I handled my sub-contractors. I believe if you are an owner and have someone working as a co-driver with you then they are employees because you make all decision as to where and when you work and that makes them employees. This can be a very expensive mistake especially if you fire them and they apply for unemployment and you argue they are not. The fines are expensive and then the IRS and SS come looking for you too. As always JMHO

Your last 2 lines contradict abit... Your example IS one of employer/employee no doubt.....A true team is a partnership BOTHH agreeing to the work.

You wanna see strict rules? Try being a contractor for the Post Office and they get away with it no problems...So in the big picture I think all this concern is abit out of porportion for our Biz.

 

[nightcreacher]

contract labor is a norm in in the trucking industry,what you have to be careful of ,is if that driver fails to pay his or her taxes,if you cant prove they are not a company driver,you could be iiable for their taxes.Having a co-driver as contract labor is really shaky ground,cause if you tell them they are driving to fast,they are now become a compny driver.The people on percentage pay,that buy fuel is another story,as long as you dont micro-manage,they will be contract labor,or can claim owner opp status,as they are subcontracted to do the work,and have an investment they can loose,meaning they pay for the fuel

 

[OntarioVanMan]

contract labor is a norm in in the trucking industry,what you have to be careful of ,is if that driver fails to pay his or her taxes,if you cant prove they are not a company driver,you could be iiable for their taxes.Having a co-driver as contract labor is really shaky ground,cause if you tell them they are driving to fast,they are now become a compny driver.The people on percentage pay,that buy fuel is another story,as long as you dont micro-manage,they will be contract labor,or can claim owner opp status,as they are subcontracted to do the work,and have an investment they can loose,meaning they pay for the fuel

Thats why there are contracts approved by a lawyer in these manners...to state terms and conditions of the person who accepts those terms and signs the contract. My example of the post office...you MUST arrive at 4am, your truck will be clean and a fixed schedule of where you will be at a given time and your duties...they've been like this since the beginning of time...Maybe some owners here should get a copy of a post office contract to see how they legally get away with this...

 

[PalletJack]

Here is the answer

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p15a.pdf

Still not sure. Send this form to irs

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf

 

[highway star]

The way I see it, and I know there will be some disagreement, I take both words in the phrase "independent contractor" into consideration. Whether you're independent or a contractor, we all have shippers and receivers to make happy. Beyond that, if you're independent you only have yourself to please. In my case, I'm a contractor and that means there's another party involved that I need to make happy, much like an employee needs to make the boss happy. If I don't make them happy, I'll be fired. Yes, it is a termination of the contract, but the result is exactly the same. As the very wise Davekc says, "businessman first". No doubt! But, if you're a contractor, some of that employee mindset should be used.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

The way I see it, and I know there will be some disagreement, I take both words in the phrase "independent contractor" into consideration. Whether you're independent or a contractor, we all have shippers and receivers to make happy. Beyond that, if you're independent you only have yourself to please. In my case, I'm a contractor and that means there's another party involved that I need to make happy, much like an employee needs to make the boss happy. If I don't make them happy, I'll be fired. Yes, it is a termination of the contract, but the result is exactly the same. As the very wise Davekc says, "businessman first". No doubt! But, if you're a contractor, some of that employee mindset should be used.

Star..exactly..the customer is the boss ie: he's paying the freight!! Its our job to give the service they are paying for...there's such a fine line....but there is a line.

 

[iceroadtrucker]

Very well stated!!!!

 

[greg334]

I don't know where you think the customer is the boss, most of the time they do not have a thing to do with the company or the relationship between company and contractor.

The thing is that many want to have the company to take care of everything but they fail to see that they are 'contracted' to operate the truck. The company should never tell anyone how to drive and the idea of using the stats, like acceptance and in service time really is employee thing when you look at it closely.

Regardless, many come into this business with no idea what a contractor is or how they are to be treated. Some want to be told what to do, how to drive and what route to use.

The best companies treat people like adults, not children.

They don't look at fictitious stats, like acceptance rates or in service time but focus on making money. It is bothersome to know why some are successful at a company and while others fail at the same company.

These best companies also don't mess around with pettiness of who has the prettiest truck or newest RVing expediter on the lot, they want to see freight moved to make money and that's all.

 

[cheri1122]

Agree with Greg: while safety and on-time ratings are a necessary parameter of performance, availability and acceptance should not be. The use of acceptance ratings, particularly, is skating on employee territory: if an 'independent contractor' is penalized for declining a load that doesn't meet the objectives of his/her business, they aren't exactly independent, are they?
Carriers/brokers who have trouble covering loads need to determine the cause (nearly always too little money), and deal with the real problem. Instead, they blame the contractors for being independent, and declining to take a deliberate loss. They are wanting to have their cake & eat it too, and whenever we accept a load that doesn't accomplish our objectives, we're helping them do it.
If the carrier/broker is one that will remember, and return that favor, then it makes sense to compromise, but if they won't, "independent contractor" is just terminology, not reality.

 

[spudhead911]

Abit off subject but as for the company wanting me to haul a load I consider not to be profitable to me and they like to use the old "we have to service the customer" My reply is "then service them out of your percentage."

 

[iceroadtrucker]

Agree with Greg: while safety and on-time ratings are a necessary parameter of performance, availability and acceptance should not be. The use of acceptance ratings, particularly, is skating on employee territory: if an 'independent contractor' is penalized for declining a load that doesn't meet the objectives of his/her business, they aren't exactly independent, are they?
Carriers/brokers who have trouble covering loads need to determine the cause (nearly always too little money), and deal with the real problem. Instead, they blame the contractors for being independent, and declining to take a deliberate loss. They are wanting to have their cake & eat it too, and whenever we accept a load that doesn't accomplish our objectives, we're helping them do it.
If the carrier/broker is one that will remember, and return that favor, then it makes sense to compromise, but if they won't, "independent contractor" is just terminology, not reality.

Well using thats using the 10lb sledge hammer to drive in the 8 pennny nail with one wallop. Well stated.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Agree with Greg: while safety and on-time ratings are a necessary parameter of performance, availability and acceptance should not be. The use of acceptance ratings, particularly, is skating on employee territory: if an 'independent contractor' is penalized for declining a load that doesn't meet the objectives of his/her business, they aren't exactly independent, are they?
Carriers/brokers who have trouble covering loads need to determine the cause (nearly always too little money), and deal with the real problem. Instead, they blame the contractors for being independent, and declining to take a deliberate loss. They are wanting to have their cake & eat it too, and whenever we accept a load that doesn't accomplish our objectives, we're helping them do it.
If the carrier/broker is one that will remember, and return that favor, then it makes sense to compromise, but if they won't, "independent contractor" is just terminology, not reality.

ICT..Once and awhile Cheri comes out with a GEM..thats why she's our DIAMOND in the rough...*L*

Cheri...ever get out of SLC paid???