Anyone out there letting O/O's bid their own loads?

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Your description sound fine....if 100% of the ones that leave actually exit the business, but time again we've seen some of the more adventurist ones start their multi carrier format or get single authority thus increasing the over all numbers..... tie goes to the runner....:p
 

jjtdrv4u

Expert Expediter
The notion that big carriers should encourage smaller fleets to grow and multi-carrier models to flourish by showing them a little luv is the Utopian pipe dream of someone running the multi-carrier model, or someone running for a small carrier. <snark> :JC_rimshot:

sounds like the theory of evolution...only the strongest and biggest survive....
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Your description sound fine....if 100% of the ones that leave actually exit the business, but time again we've seen some of the more adventurist ones start their multi carrier format or get single authority thus increasing the over all numbers..... tie goes to the runner....:p
Right, that's why I included this in my comment:
The net increase in the industry happens most often not when big carriers maintain their fleet, but rather when people add to the industry using the multi-carrier model and when smaller carriers expand their fleet faster than the market will bear in getting to grow their fleet too fast.
 
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RoadSaint

Expert Expediter
The notion that big carriers should encourage smaller fleets to grow and multi-carrier models to flourish by showing them a little luv is the Utopian pipe dream of someone running the multi-carrier model, or someone running for a small carrier. <snark> :JC_rimshot:

Right there is our disconnect. Not you being a snarky %$#@(although that doesn't help), but the idea that I'm here trying to get the big carriers to encourage or otherwise "help" smaller fleets in any way. I'm not. That's not the nature of competition or capitalism. What I'm doing is ensuring balance by making sure people reading this forum don't get ONLY misinformation spread by companies and people who have never been involved with the multi-carrier model, and thus don't know %$#@ about how it really works. EDIT: If you have personally been involved in the multi-carrier model, don't harp on that point. That's not the substance of this post, and I won't respond to it.

They will still get said misinformation, but at least now they have a CHANCE to see that not everyone shares that opinion, and they can make their own informed decisions, and do their own research.

What I'm saying is, don't believe every :censoredsign: on the internet, myself included. Figure things out for yourself, and never stop learning/asking questions. We can all be better.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Right there is our disconnect. Not you being a snarky %$#@(although that doesn't help), but the idea that I'm here trying to get the big carriers to encourage or otherwise "help" smaller fleets in any way. I'm not.
There's even a bigger disconnect that you think, because I didn't say you were here trying to get big carriers to encourage smaller fleets. I didn't even hint at it. My comments were directed squarely at OVM, which is why I quoted him. My comment in the last paragraph was a direct reference to the same post where I pulled his quote, where he said, "carriers really need to start using the capacity already out here better to their advantage.....never mind that you are the biggest just downsize the fleet..."

They will still get said misinformation, but at least now they have a CHANCE to see that not everyone shares that opinion, and they can make their own informed decisions, and do their own research.
Research is critical to anyone entering this business, but the problem with someone entering the business with little or no experience is they are unable to make fully informed decisions, in no small part because many of the people who only know this industry from the multi-carrier model viewpoint are the ones giving their opinions, and it ends up being the blind leading the blind, or more accurately, the ignorant leading the ignorant.

They're new and inexperienced and don't even know enough to ask the right questions, and they often get the wrong answers from those who have rationalized the answers because, as you said earlier, "It all makes sense." That's how van drivers are able to figure out that they can't haul that 300 pound pallet with half a dozen 5-gallon buckets of paint or that 900 pound pallet of car batteries, because they have scary little HAZMAT labels on them, and you know, you can't haul HAZMAT without a CDL. It makes sense.

They already think they can make more money by having multiple carriers and brokers looking for loads with them, yet that's been proven to be a myth. There are exceptions, but those are exceptions, not the norm. But that thought gets reinforced by those operating in the multi-carrier model who are actually convinced they're making more than someone leased on with a single, good carrier. The ignorant leading the ignorant.

They are also told things like, "You don't need that expensive insurance. This is all you need." And they wind up with commercial insurance that won't cover expedite at all, or they get an inland marine policy and think they're covered, or they get an actual expedite trucking policy that only covers them in certain states or with a limited radius like 500 miles. And they think they're covered. They get screwed over by carriers and brokers in little ways and don't even know they're getting screwed. They think 65 and 70 cents a mile is normal, and get all giddy when they see 90 cents a mile once a month.

The failure rate of expediters in general is high, especially with cargo vans, but cargo van multi-carrier drivers fail at an astonishing rate. Partly because the multi-carrier model is a last ditch effort for many, and they enter the industry ill-prepared and with unrealistic expectations. The ones who are successful, generally speaking, are the ones with at least 2 or 3 years experience at a larger carrier or two, who have learned the business, know what to watch out for, know who to stay away from, and most importantly, know where freight comes from (hint: it's not from bid boards).
 

RoadSaint

Expert Expediter
the problem with someone entering the business with little or no experience is they are unable to make fully informed decisions, in no small part because many of the people who only know this industry from the multi-carrier model viewpoint are the ones giving their opinions

My experience has been the opposite of this, with 1 major caveat: Most people don't want to help a new guy AT ALL. It seems like the majority of people think if they snub people asking about expediting, it will keep the business from being saturated. It won't. It'll just stop it from being saturated with people who speak English as a first language.

That said, the ones who DO give their opinion have pretty much universally aligned themselves against the multi-carrier model, with the vast majority stating a complete falsehood as their first argument against the multi-carrier: "You're bidding against yourself, getting yourself lower prices." That's patently untrue due to the way multi-carrier dispatching works, which is the sole reason 90% of the people who argue against MC developed that opinion to begin with. Then they're resistant to changing their opinion, because they've created this culture of hate against the MCs, and they subconsciously don't want it to be all over something they were completely wrong about. People don't want to be wrong. But it's ok for you to be wrong sometimes man. It's human nature showing it's face again. ;)

Then once they accept that they might be wrong about that part, they'll go on to say how the little guys are ruining the business, and so that's a good reason to continue hating them, because they're saturating the business and making freight prices drop. Well, to that I say, you're saturating the business too. No one guy, no one fleet, no one nationality of people is causing this situation. The cause is this:

1. We work in an industry with a very small barrier to entry. You need a license. Your own truck helps but isn't necessary.
2. You don't need much in the way of skill to do what we do. No education necessary. Anyone can do it. In the age of GPS, you don't even need to know how to read a map any more.
3. The business still pays more than most people with no marketable skills can make doing something else.

To be entirely honest with you, the ONLY reason our industry isn't so overrun with people that we're all working for near minimum wage is that there isn't a lot of knowledge out there about our industry. You think the people who are miserable flipping burgers at mcdonalds wouldn't jump at the chance to get into our profession, even making less than we are? What about the guy standing for 8 hours straight on a concrete floor at walmart? Don't kid yourself. If everyone in the united states suddenly got exposure to how our industry works and how much we make, we'd get bum rushed like the last donut at a fat guy convention.

P.S. Before you fallaciously argue that the universal alignment of people speaking against the MC model must be because they're right, I will pre-emptively direct you here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_men_make_a_tiger
hint: 3 men DON'T make a tiger.
 
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RoadSaint

Expert Expediter
Yes, they say that, don't they? They also say "Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater."

Both common sayings, yet they're in direct opposition to one another. Only 1 can be right. Or perhaps they're both right, but only in particular circumstances. Either way, they can't both be right in this one, so they're both examples of Three Men Make a Tiger. ;)
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
That said, the ones who DO give their opinion have pretty much universally aligned themselves against the multi-carrier model, with the vast majority stating a complete falsehood as their first argument against the multi-carrier: "You're bidding against yourself, getting yourself lower prices." That's patently untrue due to the way multi-carrier dispatching works, which is the sole reason 90% of the people who argue against MC developed that opinion to begin with.
I'm not sure where you get your 90%, unless it's another one of those "it all makes sense" things, but not that many people, and certainly not most of those here on EO, believe multi-carrier operators are bidding against themselves. A few do, of course, but most know better. What's interesting is, those who do believe that, are utterly ignorant of the multi-carrier side of things and only know expediting from the larger carrier side of things. It's the flip-side of the ignorance coin at work when they give their opinions about multi-carriers. If you can recognize that ignorance from those people, you should at the very least be able to admit to the same sort of ignorance from those who only know the multi-carrier model. People don't want to admit they might be ignorant any more than they want to admit they're wrong. Human nature and all that.

The part about getting lower prices on the multi-carrier side because you're bidding against yourself, that's not why, but the lower rates for multi-carriers are well documented. Multi-carrier operators run on average 10-20 cents a mile lower than do leased cargo vans at larger carriers. The reasons for that are many, which I'm sure you are aware. But one thing is for certain, multiple-carrier vans get listed more than once as an available unit, which creates false capacity, which in and of itself pushes rates down, as quite often customers can see those available units. Opening bids begin at a lower rate in areas where there is false capacity.

Then once they accept that they might be wrong about that part, they'll go on to say how the little guys are ruining the business, and so that's a good reason to continue hating them, because they're saturating the business and making freight prices drop. Well, to that I say, you're saturating the business too.
Since larger carriers won't take on cargo vans unless the market can support it, and will often not even replace vans that leave unless the market calls for it, I'd be very interested in how you arrived at the conclusion that I'm saturating the market, too. I'm assuming that "you're" is a general "you are" and not me specifically, therefor my "I'm" equally represents the general. Otherwise, "Well, to that I say, you're saturating the business too," starts sounding a little Pee Wee Herman and "I know you are but what I am?"

The cause is this:

1. We work in an industry with a very small barrier to entry. You need a license. Your own truck helps but isn't necessary.
2. You don't need much in the way of skill to do what we do. No education necessary. Anyone can do it. In the age of GPS, you don't even need to know how to read a map any more.
3. The business still pays more than most people with no marketable skills can make doing something else.

That's some of the causes, but there are others. I think the low hurdle of entry is far and away the largest factor. It enables people to completely ignore the warning signs of carriers no taking on any vans and just go ahead and enter the business anyway.

P.S. Before you fallaciously argue...
You don't know me, but if you did you'd know how funny that warning is. You'll find that I rarely use a logical fallacy in an argument, because I recognize them when I see them. The Soapbox forum here on EO is a veritable treasure trove, a Library of Congress, of logical fallacy arguments. A popular one is that Fox News is "Fair and Balanced" because they say it so many times in air that people believe it (see Tiger, Three Men) and they are honest and trustworthy because they are the highest rated cable news network (agumentum ad populum). But I digress.
 

RoadSaint

Expert Expediter
The 90% was, as I said, "In my experience" in the paragraph above it that you didn't quote. As for recognizing the potential for ignorance on the multi-carrier side of things, I do. But then, I've never been trying to make the case that said ignorance doesn't exist on both sides of the argument. My only point was that smaller companies who run under the MC model aren't necessarily the devil, and their driver's his minions. Most are just normal guys trying to make a living just like you and me, and I can't say either of us deserve it more than the next guy. And yes, it was a general "you are", as in anyone driving a cargo van in the business.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
A few bad apples and it taints the whole bushel as its told ....

Yes, they say that, don't they? They also say "Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater."

Both common sayings, yet they're in direct opposition to one another. Only 1 can be right. Or perhaps they're both right, but only in particular circumstances. Either way, they can't both be right in this one, so they're both examples of Three Men Make a Tiger. ;)
"One bad apple spoils the whole spoils the barrel" applies to not only apples (and other fruit), but also to people, policies, laws and a whole host of other things. One bad person can spoil the entire atmosphere of an office, or a sports team (often called a "cancer in the locker room"), etc. With apples specifically, one rotting apple will cause the entire barrel of apples to spoil, as apples produce a gaseous hormone called ethylene, which is, among other things, a ripening agent. When you store fruits together, the ethylene each piece emits pushes the others around it to ripen further. The riper the apple, the more ethylene it produces. An overripe apple produces copious amounts, more than enough to talk the other fruits into ripening, and eventually into rotting.

"Don't throw the baby out with the bath water" would apply to a barrel of apples where one apple is ripe or overripe, and before it has a chance to spoil the entire barrel, you throw every apple away, anyway. Throwing the good out with the bad. The expression suggests an avoidable error in which something good is eliminated when trying to get rid of something bad.
 
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davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I'll cut right to the chase and not complicate the simple. It boils down to a percentage of risk. The percentage of failure in a multi set up is extremely high. The forums really have no success stories with any longevity. The ones that had originally defended it, have since moved on. I have brokered freight for years and have seen the other side of it. Often times, or most times, you are dealing with a unstable company to begin with. That is how you hear all the drivers horror stories on here and elsewhere. Most of these companies are barely self supporting. Follow the money.
So, can you be successful in a multi carrier model? Yes. But it is like buying a mansion in the middle of a ghetto and expecting to cash in.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I'm not sure where you get your 90%, unless it's another one of those "it all makes sense" things, but not that many people, and certainly not most of those here on EO, believe multi-carrier operators are bidding against themselves. A few do, of course, but most know better. What's interesting is, those who do believe that, are utterly ignorant of the multi-carrier side of things and only know expediting from the larger carrier side of things. It's the flip-side of the ignorance coin at work when they give their opinions about multi-carriers. If you can recognize that ignorance from those people, you should at the very least be able to admit to the same sort of ignorance from those who only know the multi-carrier model. People don't want to admit they might be ignorant any more than they want to admit they're wrong. Human nature and all that.

The part about getting lower prices on the multi-carrier side because you're bidding against yourself, that's not why, but the lower rates for multi-carriers are well documented. Multi-carrier operators run on average 10-20 cents a mile lower than do leased cargo vans at larger carriers. The reasons for that are many, which I'm sure you are aware. But one thing is for certain, multiple-carrier vans get listed more than once as an available unit, which creates false capacity, which in and of itself pushes rates down, as quite often customers can see those available units. Opening bids begin at a lower rate in areas where there is false capacity.

Since larger carriers won't take on cargo vans unless the market can support it, and will often not even replace vans that leave unless the market calls for it, I'd be very interested in how you arrived at the conclusion that I'm saturating the market, too. I'm assuming that "you're" is a general "you are" and not me specifically, therefor my "I'm" equally represents the general. Otherwise, "Well, to that I say, you're saturating the business too," starts sounding a little Pee Wee Herman and "I know you are but what I am?"



That's some of the causes, but there are others. I think the low hurdle of entry is far and away the largest factor. It enables people to completely ignore the warning signs of carriers no taking on any vans and just go ahead and enter the business anyway.

You don't know me, but if you did you'd know how funny that warning is. You'll find that I rarely use a logical fallacy in an argument, because I recognize them when I see them. The Soapbox forum here on EO is a veritable treasure trove, a Library of Congress, of logical fallacy arguments. A popular one is that Fox News is "Fair and Balanced" because they say it so many times in air that people believe it (see Tiger, Three Men) and they are honest and trustworthy because they are the highest rated cable news network (agumentum as populum). But I digress.

I was following you right along until Fox News. Not fair and balanced? :D
 
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RoadSaint

Expert Expediter
The expression suggests an avoidable error in which something good is eliminated when trying to get rid of something bad.

I know what it all means. I wrote it. And yes, this is exactly what I meant. I was referring to not discounting/throwing out all the good drivers because of a few bad ones, as was implied by the "a few bad apples" comment....

...at this point, I feel like you're just trying to bait me into putting effort into responses you're either not going to fully read, or ignore parts that don't help you make your next spectacle, er, point.
 

jjtdrv4u

Expert Expediter
I'll cut right to the chase and not complicate the simple. It boils down to a percentage of risk. The percentage of failure in a multi set up is extremely high. The forums really have no success stories with any longevity. The ones that had originally defended it, have since moved on. I have brokered freight for years and have seen the other side of it. Often times, or most times, you are dealing with a unstable company to begin with. That is how you hear all the drivers horror stories on here and elsewhere. Most of these companies are barely self supporting. Follow the money.
So, can you be successful in a multi carrier model? Yes. But it is like buying a mansion in the middle of a ghetto and expecting to cash in.
you hit the nail on the head.

also, it would be interesting to see who the multi's are that are still in business, I know of 2 that still advertise on this website, and there are a bunch that keep a low profile and do not advertise.

since owner operators with all these multis pay billions in insurance, fuel, repairs, vehicles, etc., it would be good if they or their owner operators would reply with who they all are.
what say you guys? let's hear it.
 
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jjtdrv4u

Expert Expediter
ok, I will start the list:
1. Prestige
2. Awesome

and these that have been multi in the past, not sure now:
3. Millhouse? (not sure)
4. Farm2Freight? (not sure)
5. Try Hours? (not sure)
6. Zipp Express? (not sure)
7. FastExact
8. Lunar (Eclipse)
9. Ovie?
 

Mailer

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
...since owner operators with all these multis pay billions in insurance, fuel, repairs, vehicles, etc., it would be good if they or their owner operators would reply with who they all are.
what say you guys? let's hear it.

You brought up an excellent point:)

They'll participate If they are "Allowed."

The Multi(s), the Penske(s), the Russians and many others. They'll come. They'll become members, stop lurking and actively participate.

To accomplish this, EO community must provide them with the "buffer zone."

Only when they are safely allowed to voice their opinions, we will never know what more we can learn from these new members.

I would love to see this happens. If it does, I'll be glad to donate extra bottles of Advil to the Administrators and staff members..... Lol
 
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RoadSaint

Expert Expediter
since owner operators with all these multis pay billions in insurance, fuel, repairs, vehicles, etc., it would be good if they or their owner operators would reply with who they all are.

Trying to understand your point here. Are you saying the large carriers pay your insurance costs for you if you're an O/O for them?

As an O/O working in the multi-carrier model, my insurance costs are high, but I wouldn't think they're much different than in the exclusive side. Honestly, any additional money spent in insurance is probably more than offset by qualcom fees and random nickel and diming that happens with many the exclusive carriers.
 
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