Ann Barnhardt - The All American Girl

[tbubster]

We are told that we should accept all muslims as peaceful,that we just have to learn about their religion to understand them. Our children are tought that it is wrong to look at muslims with suspicion.Its sad that so many americans belive we are to accept them yet they should not have to accept our ways.What some do not seem to understand is the fact that anyone who is a devout muslim can not and will not accept other religions nor the people who practice in them.For the quran says it is to be this way.

It is sad that when people call the muslims out for the hate,the murder,the rapes,the marrying of children to old men we are told we need better understand their cultural ways.I say no thanks.I feel no need to better understand a way of life that looks at the victem of rape as a criminal.I feel no need to better understand cultural way of life based off of religion that a women who is raped does not report it out of fear of being killed for bringing shame on her family.I feel no need to understand a cultural way of life that allows a rape victem to be charged and put in prison for 12 years for the crime of adultery and the only way she can earn her freedom is to marry the man who raped her.

Afghanistan imprisons woman for not reporting rape quickly enough


In the muslim world there have been bombings killings rapes murders for thousands of years in the name of mohammed.This is a way of life that many are willing to die to protect and many others are fine living with.It is sad when we hear about americans having their heads sawed off,when we hear about terroist attacks on our bases,when terrorist storm a hotel and kill hundreds of people they put the blame on america and say it is because of america and its ways that we do this.What is even worse is the americans who back it up when they say they are doing it because because we are over there.That say we are forceing our way of life on them.Its as if they want us to belive if we left them alone they would stop the murdering the rapes the the attacks.The fact is the people who do this will always do this just as they have for thousands of years.Why? Because for them they do as the quran tells them to.

what is even more sad to me is the fact that no matter what awful thing happens no matter how many people are killed some americans seem to love finding fault with america for it.As Thawk has said yes we have a history that is not all good.Yet we move on and learn from it.We grow into a better country because of it.Most of the muslim world does not want to do this they like things the way they are.Who am I to say they are wrong?Well The raping of women,the killing of people who do not belive and live the way the quran say.The forced marrying of children to old men,The bombings that kill woman and children all in the name of Mohamed and a peaceful religion is wrong no matter how you spin it or twist it to blame amreica.


Perhaps to me the sadist part of all of this are the ones who scream about our rights and how everyone has the freedom to live as they please.How some point out how wrong it is to force other people to live how we want them to.How people talk about morals and humanity and the need to protect and help those who can not do it for themself. Seem to check those belifes and morals at the borders.

Why is it the right thing to do to accept them and their beliefs.To allow their Sharia law to be used in our american courts which goes against the constitution.Yet this is wrong and americans are forced to aplolgize for their belifes??


School Apologizes for Operation Christmas Child Message | FOX News & Commentary: Todd Starnes

 

[greg334]

I think there are two different issues here, the first being a nut case speaking to others who think like her acting as she has the knowledge to demean and d*mn an entire religion based on her fear and ignorance. The other thing is trying to take out of context some issues that have happened in countries that are too far from civilization and trying to make it out as the norm - again seems there is missing some education and experience on the subject.

What happened to the woman who was jailed in Afghanistan isn't just about the culture but our failure to actually set the country on the right path. We went in there with this idea that we must win the hearts and minds of the people and it has backfired on us, because we are no where near where we should have been by now - out of the country. We failed to bring the right reforms to the country, change some of the thinking and allow others to help change the rest. It may sound great that we can point to the religion as the problem but outside of those countries, this doesn't seem to happen.

If one wants to compare religions, western religions still have the leading numbers for the past century, especially when it comes to denial of rights and wanton killing. Many point out how violent Muslims are but I can think of a number of things that were done to people of other religions based on Christianity, Bosnia is one. The Jewish question is another and both of them shadow the Muslim's. Even in the case of Christian religions fighting others Christian religions because of their beliefs, there is still a lot to be said about that. I feel until one has a clear understanding of what their religion does in its name, there is no use to try to convince others, other religions are bad.

A very good point to prove some of this is wrong is this quote;

This is a way of life that many are willing to die to protect and many others are fine living with.

This reminds me of the propaganda that that has been told to us why we are in the places we are in, in the first place - to protect our way of life. We justify the recent wars we have fought because we were attacked not by a country or a religion but by an ideology. We can use that quote to show patriotic sacrifice of those who defended our way of life without changing all but two words

In our world there have been bombings killings rapes murders for thousands of years in the name of Jesus. This is a way of life that many are willing to die to protect and many others are fine living with.

Now thinking about this and then understanding the point of many Muslims who see some of this as a repeat of the Crusades, I can see where this is a religious war not forced on us by them but we are forcing it on them.

The Germans used this excuse to kill some 20 million. We used this excuse to kill in the fields of France and in the Pacific. As a Christian nation, we allowed millions to be killed from Lenin/Stalin's Soviet Union to Cambodia and throughout Asia.

I have yet seen the massive killing that we have done, done by a Muslim country - even one who has nuke weapons.

 

[tbubster]

I think there are two different issues here, the first being a nut case speaking to others who think like her acting as she has the knowledge to demean and d*mn an entire religion based on her fear and ignorance. The other thing is trying to take out of context some issues that have happened in countries that are too far from civilization and trying to make it out as the norm - again seems there is missing some education and experience on the subject.

What happened to the woman who was jailed in Afghanistan isn't just about the culture but our failure to actually set the country on the right path. We went in there with this idea that we must win the hearts and minds of the people and it has backfired on us, because we are no where near where we should have been by now - out of the country. We failed to bring the right reforms to the country, change some of the thinking and allow others to help change the rest. It may sound great that we can point to the religion as the problem but outside of those countries, this doesn't seem to happen.

If one wants to compare religions, western religions still have the leading numbers for the past century, especially when it comes to denial of rights and wanton killing. Many point out how violent Muslims are but I can think of a number of things that were done to people of other religions based on Christianity, Bosnia is one. The Jewish question is another and both of them shadow the Muslim's. Even in the case of Christian religions fighting others Christian religions because of their beliefs, there is still a lot to be said about that. I feel until one has a clear understanding of what their religion does in its name, there is no use to try to convince others, other religions are bad.

A very good point to prove some of this is wrong is this quote;



This reminds me of the propaganda that that has been told to us why we are in the places we are in, in the first place - to protect our way of life. We justify the recent wars we have fought because we were attacked not by a country or a religion but by an ideology. We can use that quote to show patriotic sacrifice of those who defended our way of life without changing all but two words



Now thinking about this and then understanding the point of many Muslims who see some of this as a repeat of the Crusades, I can see where this is a religious war not forced on us by them but we are forcing it on them.

The Germans used this excuse to kill some 20 million. We used this excuse to kill in the fields of France and in the Pacific. As a Christian nation, we allowed millions to be killed from Lenin/Stalin's Soviet Union to Cambodia and throughout Asia.

I have yet seen the massive killing that we have done, done by a Muslim country - even one who has nuke weapons.

Thank you for proving my point!!!!As for it not happening in non muslim countrys here is just a little of what does in FACT happen here.

THE RISE OF HONOR KILLINGS IN AMERICA | Marshall Frank

Archived-Articles: Honor Killing in America

 

[greg334]

Thank you for proving my point!!!!As for it not happening in non muslim countrys here is just a little of what does in FACT happen here.

I don't think I proved your point, my point was simple - ignorance through hate and fear exsists among all of us and those who actually put an effort into understanding another religion with an open mind are those who understand that the only real threat is the ignorance that drives others.

But honor killings?

Really?

Six or seven cases of killings are being cited as violence that came to this country because of a religion?

Seriously gathering information from a blog that's writer is still among the ignorant?

Well that's not much proof.

I live in a diverse area and I got to tell you that we have had more problems with eastern Europeans than we ever had with Muslims. We have had people who brought feuds and hatred from the old country here, one situation where two families lived across the street from each other and ended up having a gun fight in the street all because of some stupid feud that started 130 years ago.

The six or seven cases of honor killings or what ever you want to call them seem to be very isolated, in fact I think just in the city of Detroit among the population there, more happens in a month on violence against children and wives than has happened in the Muslim population anywhere here in the past ten years. In fact speaking about family honor and such, the Latinos in south east part of the country may have done a lot more.

See the problem from the point of view of any is that those who speak of another religion are scared of that religion. There is no justification to think that Muslims as a whole group are violent as much as some Christians are. I think in the case of rhetoric, Christians still overshadow Muslims a lot.

 

[RLENT]

Thank you for proving my point!!!!

Ahhhh Boobie .... referencing an article by one religious lunatic hatemonger in support of another, probably ain't the best strategy you could have gone with .....

As for it not happening in non muslim countrys here is just a little of what does in FACT happen here.

...... "just a little" .... would seem to imply that there is LOTS MORE that is going on .....

Can you point to anything, like other news articles, which documents that is truly the case ?

Or is this just more bovine fecal matter that you are trying to pass off as reality ?

 

[tbubster]

There is much that goes on behind closed doors that you nor I will ever hear about.For a guy who disikes all the news outlets it seems as though if they dont report something happening then you dont think it happens.Greg you may live near or even in dearborn.Yet you are an outsider to them.There are things that your whole neighborhood may know about but you dont and you never will again you are an outsider to them.

Its not just about honnor killings.It also is not just about their faith.It is a cultrual way of life for them.There are a great many reasons why they dont like us.From american women being allowed to marry who they want,being able to walk around with out their heads being covered to talking to men they are not married to nor releated to.From the free drinking and drug use to the To the open men sleeping with men and women sleeping with women.Its from the fact that we disobey the commands of " Allah". and allow everyone to decide for themselfs who their god is.To the fact that we allow people to deny their is even a god.

You did prove my point Greg.You did the very thing That I said people are doing.You tried to miscredit those that see the muslim faith and way of life due to fear,ignorance and missing some education and experience on the subject.You say its because of our fear that we lack understanding.Then go on to give a history class on the wrongs we have done.The thing is Greg we in this country are no longer killing in the name of god.We are no longer burning people at the stake for being witches.If it does happen the people of this country do not accept it and punish the murders.Where as in the muslim world like it or not this is an accepted way of life.

Does Islam Justify Honor Killings? :: Middle East Forum


Honor killings: When the ancient and the modern collide :: Middle East Forum

Sharia Law Gains Foothold in US—Federal Judge Upholds Government Funding of Islam

Florida circuit court judge allows case to proceed under Islamic law - Jihad Watch

Yep we are the ones who dont get it
Sharia Law in Dearborn Michigan

 

[greg334]

There is much that goes on behind closed doors that you nor I will ever hear about.

True with almost everything, you know what the Catholic Church is deciding, I don't but I also know that it really doesn't matter.

For a guy who disikes all the news outlets it seems as though if they dont report something happening then you dont think it happens.

Well you must be talking about yourself, I hold journalist in contempt because of their lack of uniformed concern for the country and the people of this country. I also know that I am not depending on one or two sources of news, I get clearer pictures from many more sources that are considered legit but also those sources don't seem to have knee jerk reaction to events and opinions.

Greg you may live near or even in dearborn.Yet you are an outsider to them.

That's true but at the same time I'm not the one demeaning them as subhumans or claiming their religion is really not what they say it is - in other words I don't see them as a threat to my way of life or my country as many do.

There is also an understanding between a bunch of us that we don't see the need to be forceful about our religious convictions, mainly because we are adults and accept people not for some moniker or appearance as so many do but as people. WHAT this means is that I may be an outsider but I am welcomed as someone who is not a threat to them.

There are things that your whole neighborhood may know about but you dont and you never will again you are an outsider to them.

I guess if I understand you correctly. I stopped being "neighborly" because I live in a place where there are more renters than there are owners so it is pretty hard to get to know anyone.

Its not just about honnor killings.It also is not just about their faith.It is a cultrual way of life for them.

Yep but that goes for any religion, any culture -there is always a separation between the people living there before and those who are new.

But remember it is you who are bringing the trivial to this thread, with any religion or culture, there is somethings that some make a big deal over and this is nothing new.

There are a great many reasons why they dont like us.

Well I can tell you, you need to be a bit more specific and less labeling on that. A lot of reasons are valid, even here it is hard to stomach some of the crap people scream about like this idiot Barnhardt.

From american women being allowed to marry who they want,being able to walk around with out their heads being covered to talking to men they are not married to nor releated to.

Really?

OK go visit some Amish and see what their reaction is when you as a stranger are among them. So we should treat some Amish as we do Muslims. I was overseas in Africa in areas where Muslims were the norm and the cultures I came across were worse than anything you can imagine. Or how about some orthodox Jews, I went to school with a few and when I was invited to their homes, I was told not to talk to the girls - never had that happen in a Muslim home. The head covering is something that is a choice for many, a lot choose it out of respect for God, just like many respect the bible and treat it as word from God.

From the free drinking and drug use to the To the open men sleeping with men and women sleeping with women.Its from the fact that we disobey the commands of " Allah".

OK that's odd, I mean there are a lot of Christians who feel this is very wrong, and in the case of gays, hasn't there been a bunch of violence against gays from some Christians?

and allow everyone to decide for themselfs who their god is.To the fact that we allow people to deny their is even a god.

This hasn't changed and won't unless we collapse and some religious group gets the power to run the country, which I doubt it would be Muslim.

You did prove my point Greg.You did the very thing That I said people are doing.You tried to miscredit those that see the muslim faith and way of life due to fear,ignorance and missing some education and experience on the subject.

Nope I don't think I proved your point but I have proved that you and others can't seem to accept that the religion isn't the problem and nor are the majority of the followers.

I don't have to miscredit anyone, they are doing a good job themselves with no real proof that Islam is no worse or no better than any other religion. In the past there were so much BS about Sharia law, how it has taken over the courts and so on out of the same ignorance and fear that people have that I don't have to do much to point out the comparison or the truth. The sad thing is, many of the Christian faith are the ones who should fear themselves or people like them because it will come back to them on some of the differences between the different sects within their own religion.

You say its because of our fear that we lack understanding.Then go on to give a history class on the wrongs we have done.

I have.

Christianity until the late 20th century was still full of superstitions and hatred. It wasn't the Muslims who killed jews, or gays. It wasn't Muslims who setup pogroms to rid whole populations of people because of them being other religions - like Catholic or Orthodox Christians so on.

The bloodshed that our western world has seen has been based not on the Islamic faith but the faith of Jesus's followers. Even now we see people hating Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and other sects of their own religion.

The thing is Greg we in this country are no longer killing in the name of god.

Really?

What's this stuff about bible sayings on rifles and God sorting them out?

We are no longer burning people at the stake for being witches.

True, but we still support slavery and we still can't get the idea what our rights are really about.

If it does happen the people of this country do not accept it and punish the murders.

Really, the last time I looked, we didn't do much to punish people.

Where as in the muslim world like it or not this is an accepted way
of life.

I think you need to take a course in Islamic Justice to actually back that up. The last time I looked, their system seemed to be more or less equitable in many of the bigger issues than ours. For example if one is murdered, the family of the victim has choices - one is to forgive the person but another is to seek justice to the fullest extent. Their idea seems to be that there is no debt to society but to the victims, which seems to be a bit better to me.

OK here is the thing.

In the first 75 years of our country, we were faced with these same issues by the immigrants from Ireland. Many felt that their life style and their religious beliefs were not compatible with the rest of the country. It took 40 years to find another scape goat which turned out to be two of them, the Chinese in the west and the Italians in the east. Then once we got over that, it was the Eastern Europeans in the east and the Japanese in the west - both groups were trashed in the press and in the communities to the point that there was a lot of violence against them. Then it was the Germans and other Asians but while all of this was going on, we as a Christian country was very anti-semitic to the point that we have created a culture in the north like the Jim Crow laws in the south - segregated. While we worked on the race issue with civil rights changes for the blacks, we took our time for the Jews because many blame them for Jesus. So the same thing is being done with the Muslims now.

You know thinking about it, Ann Barnhardt should be a true embarrisment to any Christian who actually follows their faith. Her hateful actions and her rhetoric is something that belongs at a Neo-Nazi rally and seems to be right along the same lines as other nut cases.

 

[Ragman]

You know thinking about it, Ann Barnhardt should be a true embarrisment to any Christian who actually follows their faith. Her hateful actions and her rhetoric is something that belongs at a Neo-Nazi rally and seems to be right along the same lines as other nut cases.

Well said, my friend, well said.

 

[Pilgrim]

Christianity until the late 20th century was still full of superstitions and hatred.

Really? Can you support this assertion with something other than your hearsay?

It wasn't the Muslims who killed jews, or gays. It wasn't Muslims who setup pogroms to rid whole populations of people because of them being other religions - like Catholic or Orthodox Christians so on.

Maybe you've got some quotations from the Koran that supports their toleration of homosexuality and orthodox Christianity, or any other religion for that matter. I'll bet that most any of us could find evidence of exactly the opposite with very little effort in a Google search. The above statement is the most absurd proposition seen in this forum lately.

 

[greg334]

Really? Can you support this assertion with something other than your hearsay?

Yep I sure can but I won't. Not because I can't defend my position but because unless you lived under a rock in the past 40 years, you would know what I'm talking about.

Even today a lot hasn't changed, I mean look at the conversation in this thread and what it is based on - the fear of the unknown of another religion based on the superstition that was created by an interpretation.

Maybe you've got some quotations from the Koran that supports their toleration of homosexuality and orthodox Christianity, or any other religion for that matter. I'll bet that most any of us could find evidence of exactly the opposite with very little effort in a Google search. The above statement is the most absurd proposition seen in this forum lately.

Here is what I said ...
It wasn't the Muslims who killed jews, or gays.

So I'll simplify this, it wasn't Muslims who setup programs to kill Jews in Europe and it wasn't Muslims who targeted gays in our country, even in the last 20 years.

The most absurd ideas to protect our country from gays has come from Christians who feel they, gays are a threat - the marriage protection act anyone?

Most of the discrimination against Jews that took place in our history has been from the mainstream population (which happened to be .... Christian), so an intolerance that the Muslims speak about in other countries is practiced by the one religion that screams that Muslims are not peaceful ... kind of somewhat getting back to the idea of superstition and hatred, right?

It wasn't Muslims who setup pogroms to rid whole populations of people because of them being other religions - like Catholic or Orthodox Christians so on.

This means that most of the bloodshed that has happened in my lifetime and before seems not to come from people with a solid belief that the Koran is the only word of God but by those who preach for the prince of peace at the same time screaming about other religions. Even within the same religion, there has been bloodshed because one doesn't believe in the Trinity while others do, so it makes only the clearest sense that when others are asking for proof of one religion does this or that, that proof is worthless until there is a clear understanding that no religion is above reproach.

 

[Pilgrim]

Yep I sure can but I won't. Not because I can't defend my position but because unless you lived under a rock in the past 40 years, you would know what I'm talking about.

I'll take it you can't defend the assertion. The "you must be out to lunch if you don't agree with me" argument doesn't hold water.

Here is what I said ...
It wasn't the Muslims who killed jews, or gays.
So I'll simplify this, it wasn't Muslims who setup programs to kill Jews in Europe and it wasn't Muslims who targeted gays in our country, even in the last 20 years.

Wonder if that's because there weren't enough of them to impose Sharia law in either place. In countries where they're the majority it's a different story. Five Muslim countries currently impose the death penalty for homosexuals:

"Same-sex intercourse carries the death penalty in five officially Muslim nations: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, Sudan, and Yemen. [3] It formerly carried the death penalty in Afghanistan under the Taliban, and in Iraq under a 2001 decree by Saddam Hussein. The legal situation in the United Arab Emirates is unclear. In many Muslim nations, such as Bahrain, Qatar, Algeria or the Maldives, homosexuality is punished with jail time, fines or corporal punishment. In some Muslim-majority nations, such as Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, or Mali, same-sex intercourse is not forbidden by law. However, in Egypt gays have been the victims of laws against 'morality'...
However (except for nations such as Turkey that were required to change their laws to be eligible to join the European Union) most Muslim nations insist that such laws are neccesary to preserve Islamic morality and virtue. Of the nations with a majority of Muslim, only Lebanon has an internal effort to legalize homosexuality."

Homosexuality and Islam - ReligionFacts

At the very least, homosexuality is regarded by Muslims as taboo, and the Koran states they will be condemned to fire (Sura IV:19)

Regarding the Jews, one has to look no farther than Iran or Palestine to find Muslim states/organizations that are committed to the destruction of Israel.

The most absurd ideas to protect our country from gays has come from Christians who feel they, gays are a threat - the marriage protection act anyone?

The Marriage Protection Act defines marriage as a union between one man and one woman, thus protecting the cultural institution that has been the foundation of the traditional family and civilized society since the beginning of time. Homosexuals can enter into civil unions to formalize their relationship, and they still maintain the civil rights afforded any citizen and probably a few extra to boot.

Most of the discrimination against Jews that took place in our history has been from the mainstream population (which happened to be .... Christian), so an intolerance that the Muslims speak about in other countries is practiced by the one religion that screams that Muslims are not peaceful ... kind of somewhat getting back to the idea of superstition and hatred, right?
It wasn't Muslims who setup pogroms to rid whole populations of people because of them being other religions - like Catholic or Orthodox Christians so on.

Tell that to the Coptic Christians in Egypt or the Christians in Iraq that are being killed and/or herded back to their ancestral village of Bartella. Attacks on Christians are common in Iraq, such as the suicide bombing attack on a church in Mosul that killed 50.

"At least 54 Iraqi churches have been bombed and at least 905 Christians have been killed since the U.S. invasion toppled Hussein in 2003..."
An 'Arab Winter' Chills Christians - WSJ.com

There are plenty of other examples of Muslim intolerance that others might want to add, but the two above offer an idea of how comfortable non-Muslims feel in Muslim countries.

 

[greg334]

I'll take it you can't defend the assertion. The "you must be out to lunch if you don't agree with me" argument doesn't hold water.

Not at all, it is too obvious to most of the population who have lived with or among those who still believe in the old ways. I feel that all of it can be illustrated with a trip to an Orthodox Greek or Orthodox Jewish community (just to mention a couple) to where there are in many regards superstitions still going on.

In the case of hatred, that's even simpler - several Christian church leaders have been openly promoting hate, one was in the Detroit area about 10 months ago threatening to burn a Koran - and what was the Muslim's response?

Was it rioting or wanton destruction of the area?

Nope, he was invited to engage them in a discussion about the differences between the religions.

Wonder if that's because there weren't enough of them to impose Sharia law in either place. In countries where they're the majority it's a different story. Five Muslim countries currently impose the death penalty for homosexuals:

Rest deleted for sanity

AND?

Hasn't this been the case with some eveglical preachers too? Inciting it as a sin and people acting on their own to "fix" the problem?

No matter, the point is that we, here in the US are not in the middle east or Africa so what one has to do with our laws are insignificant and even if the religion deems those people as less than human, it does not mean we have allow those to take it upon themselves to "fix" the problem in mass, and when we have had murders and assaults based on one factor or another, we don't allow religious reasoning to drive a verdict of not guilty.

Remember that this entire thread is about a chrsitan who took it upon her self to incite hatred towards another one and in doing so many see her and her form of religion more of the problem than the one she is trashing.

At the very least, homosexuality is regarded by Muslims as taboo, and the Koran states they will be condemned to fire (Sura IV:19)

So doesn't the bible say something about homosexuality being a sin and so on. Many take that as a mandate to rid homosexuals off the face of the earth.

Regarding the Jews, one has to look no farther than Iran or Palestine to find Muslim states/organizations that are committed to the destruction of Israel.

BUT that's not anywhere near what I'm talking about and you know it. The Palestine issues were caused not by Israel's existence but because we as the world made a decision to provide a homeland for the Jews and in doing so screwed a lot of people - the UN is an amazing thing.

Whether it was right or wrong, I won't get into it but since some time in the middle of the 12th century, Christians have viewed the Jews as somewhat of a problem and in the 20th century, the French, Germans and others were part of the problems they faced. Maybe you want to deny this but 4 to 6 million Jews among millions of others were killed because they were Jewish by the hands of people who themselves considered in many cases Christian. This is part of my point. The other part is that it continued up until the 90's.

The Marriage Protection Act defines marriage as a union between one man and one woman, thus protecting the cultural institution that has been the foundation of the traditional family and civilized society since the beginning of time. Homosexuals can enter into civil unions to formalize their relationship, and they still maintain the civil rights afforded any citizen and probably a few extra to boot.

I understand the reasoning behind it, I do support in part the definition to know that is what people sometimes think but I also understand this came from the far religious right with overtones of hatred coming from that group. That group by the way is courted by some of the republican party and is part of the disdain of many independents and has been because many of us see them as the true threat to our country, not any Muslim.

BUT that said, isn't this the same thing as another part of your post?

Let's look at this ---> most Muslim nations insist that such laws are neccesary to preserve Islamic morality and virtue.

OK put this in a different way ---> the need for such an act is predicated by some Christians in our country who insist that such laws are necessary to preserve our country's morality and virtue.

I don't see the difference between the two groups, do you?

Truthfully, I feel the need to define anything that isn't directly harmful to the country should be fought. I mean isn't this what you and others are saying about Sharia law?

Tell that to the Coptic Christians in Egypt or the Christians in Iraq that are being killed and/or herded back to their ancestral village of Bartella. Attacks on Christians are common in Iraq, such as the suicide bombing attack on a church in Mosul that killed 50.

I don't live in Egypt, I don't live in Iraq and I didn't negotiate the treaties with either country but I do live here. I can't help what goes on there, it is not my job to fight for something that won't affect me unless it is so massive that all the nations have to get together and fight it.

BUT with that said, I think cutting aid to Egypt may be needed and same with Iraq.

"At least 54 Iraqi churches have been bombed and at least 905 Christians have been killed since the U.S. invasion toppled Hussein in 2003..."

AND where were our armed forces?

I question our armed forces because of some of the issues that have been created while we were there. Maybe this is one reason why we seriously need to rethink all of our involvement and start clarifying our objectives and goals when we do engage in these types of operations.

There are plenty of other examples of Muslim intolerance that others might want to add, but the two above offer an idea of how comfortable non-Muslims feel in Muslim countries.

I more or less can bring up a few hundred but on the other hand I can point out the same thing that has happened at the hands of Christians. The real issues has been does this stuff happen here and if it does, comparably speaking does it happen more with Muslims than with other people of other religions?

See I don't think Muslims as a whole have done much ... in comparison maybe more or less isolated stuff, I didn't see any of them bomb abortion clinics or drag people behind pickups or beat them with baseball bats.

Have you?

I said this before, Sharia law is the same as the Catholic laws and the Jewish laws. We already have judges considering them in cases and Sharia is no different. They don't replace our laws and can't under our system of laws, which is kind of stupid for people to think that when you come down to it. The same goes for one religion accepting or refusing to accept homosexuality, crap the catholic church is still in the dark ages with female priests and birth control so what's the difference?

 

[Turtle]

The Marriage Protection Act defines marriage as a union between one man and one woman, thus protecting the cultural institution that has been the foundation of the traditional family and civilized society since the beginning of time.

Couple of points, a minor one is "The Marriage Protection Act" (MPA) is actually currently a bill, nothing more, which prevents federal courts from forcing states which do not recognize same-sex marriages to do so. It is a bill that keeps dying in committee that is to protect the "Defense of Marriage Act" (DOMA) more than anything else. It puts the recognition of marriages back in the hands of the states, rather than have the federal government involved with it. (The bill was co-sponsored by Ron Paul, incidentally).

The other point is not so minor. The cultural institution of the "traditional family and civilized society" has not been around since the beginning of time. Not even close. It's a relatively recent cultural tradition. The whole notion of a formalized marriage is a religious one, so there's that. Plus, while there have been nuclear family structures for thousands of years, they were generally very untraditional in the current traditional sense. Extended families comprised the traditional family, where generations and extended members lived in the same household or in clusters. The idea itself, the notion, the concept that the nuclear family is "traditional" is an important aspect of conservatism, almost exclusively. It may be tradition in the conservative religious right context, but not really anywhere else.

 

[Pilgrim]

The other point is not so minor. The cultural institution of the "traditional family and civilized society" has not been around since the beginning of time. Not even close. It's a relatively recent cultural tradition. The whole notion of a formalized marriage is a religious one, so there's that. Plus, while there have been nuclear family structures for thousands of years, they were generally very untraditional in the current traditional sense. Extended families comprised the traditional family, where generations and extended members lived in the same household or in clusters. The idea itself, the notion, the concept that the nuclear family is "traditional" is an important aspect of conservatism, almost exclusively. It may be tradition in the conservative religious right context, but not really anywhere else.

I guess the "beginning of time" starting point was a stretch - I should have used "the beginning of civilization".

• Marriage is by no means a "recent cultural tradition" in the "conservative religious right context". The Chinese, Greeks and Romans have recorded marriages as far back as 400 B.C. and beyond.
• The whole notion of a formalized marriage DID NOT originate as a religious institution, but as an arrangement between families - thus, the "arranged marriage". Marriages based on religious ceremony came later.
• There is no disputing that the marriage of man and woman has been the basic cultural unit of developed civilizations for thousands of years.

History of Marriage in Western Civilization

Chinese Wedding Traditions

 

[Turtle]

I never said marriage was a "recent cultural tradition" in the "conservative religious right context". The two quoted snippets there are from two different ideas, yet you've meshed them into a single one of marriage. I said the whole notion of formalized marriage is a religious one.

Just because families arranged marriages doesn't mean that religion played no part in the decision. It often did (and does today), depending on the culture. In many cultures, families arranged marriages because of religious beliefs. Not in all cases, of course, the same as there were people who got married for love even during the times when arranged marriages were the norm. In ancient Egyptian times, people got married (royals and non-commoners), usually long term monogamous mates, but formal marriage was based on the religion of the day, and recorded usually to determine the property that would benefit those of both families in the afterlife. Marriages for commoners in ancient Egypt were not arranged at all. The man picked his mate, gave the father a gift, and they were married for the specific purpose of having children. Divorces were easy to obtain and common. The recorded marriages of the Chinese, Greeks and Romans were mostly the result of religious beliefs, while the reasons for recording them were business related or culturally (generally religious) driven.

And just like is stated in one of the links you provided, [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif]marriage as we know it in western culture has been shaped by the doctrines and policies of the church (which has defined the "traditional" nuclear family). The idea of marriage (in western society) is tightly interwoven with religion, which is precisely why the gays refuse "civil union" and want the "M" word, and they want it to be redefined to mean something other than what it means. They want to use "Marriage" to cut religion off at the knees.
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