Al-qaeda's no.2 killed
- Thread starter tbubster
- Start date
We have a LOT of bullets. If we want to stop Al-Qaeda we must be willing to fight for as long as they are. The so-called "Cold war" lasted the better part of 50 years. Did anyone really believe we could win this on in 10?
It's very tough to defeat an idea, especially one that's religious-based.
paullud
Veteran Expediter
To defeat them you would have to do what our country has lost the nerve to do. The bodies would need to be piled up high and fast or possibly vaporized.
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paullud
Veteran Expediter
I meant that we would need to rid the world of those types of Muslims, not all, just the ones on a jihad. It would mean going in and clearing out towns with a show of force never seen before on the ground and most likely end in a mushroom cloud. We can't fight them in small groups and sit there waiting for them to engage us because time is our enemy because it allows them to continue to recruit.
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greg334
Veteran Expediter
Well we would also have to rid the world of other religious types too, christian, buddhist, zen thinking and others.
This isn't news, really because Al Qaeda's structured a lot like GM, with low, mid and higher management groups.
Many are thinking that we should not even bother at this point, the odds are stacked against us because of a number of reasons, one of them is we have yet to both speak to the people who support them or look the other way on their terms and understand what it is that they really want.
Libya is one point that can illustrate the problems we face, we will see a formation of a government that may not be anywhere near a democracy in our eyes but to the people it is. We may have the same issues with understanding them as the Europeans have understanding our ways.
Overall even though we fought the cold war, which was against an identifiable enemy, in this case we can't fight an ideology that we can't comprehend which has taken a few generations to build and may take ten to dismantle.
This isn't news, really because Al Qaeda's structured a lot like GM, with low, mid and higher management groups.
Many are thinking that we should not even bother at this point, the odds are stacked against us because of a number of reasons, one of them is we have yet to both speak to the people who support them or look the other way on their terms and understand what it is that they really want.
Libya is one point that can illustrate the problems we face, we will see a formation of a government that may not be anywhere near a democracy in our eyes but to the people it is. We may have the same issues with understanding them as the Europeans have understanding our ways.
Overall even though we fought the cold war, which was against an identifiable enemy, in this case we can't fight an ideology that we can't comprehend which has taken a few generations to build and may take ten to dismantle.
paullud
Veteran Expediter
No it won't, the equipment we bomb with now can't tell the difference either. The idea is to push through towns and when it is determined to be a stronghold it gets bombed, cleared on foot, and nuked to prevent their return and the demoralization of fighters. Of course there will be innocent bystanders killed just as there are now by both sides but I think it will end the war quickly and potentially save more lives than it costs.
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paullud
Veteran Expediter
greg334
Veteran Expediter
I'm trying to figure out the logic here. Kill everyone and not worry about it?
Don't anyone think that terrorism is not a person place or thing but an idea, or an ideology?
Do you honestly think that all terrorist are Muslim looking people?
It could be the guy down the street who wants to see the end of the US because they hurt baby seals once a long time ago or it could be the girl who wants to end abortion and takes out a floor in the hospital with a body bomb.
We have to figure out what we want in life, to live with this without the worries or to continue to fight an ever lasting battle with no gain possible.
Don't anyone think that terrorism is not a person place or thing but an idea, or an ideology?
Do you honestly think that all terrorist are Muslim looking people?
It could be the guy down the street who wants to see the end of the US because they hurt baby seals once a long time ago or it could be the girl who wants to end abortion and takes out a floor in the hospital with a body bomb.
We have to figure out what we want in life, to live with this without the worries or to continue to fight an ever lasting battle with no gain possible.
paullud
Veteran Expediter
I didn't say that, I said we should clear the towns on foot.
Yes it is an ideology.
The thread is about al qaeda which is a Muslim terrorist organization.
Yes those are examples of potential terrorists.
We are making gains and I think we should change what we are doing to end it quicker.
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greg334
Veteran Expediter
BUT what good is it going to do, I mean how do you tell one form another?
BUT to many it isn't, it is a religion and it is them against us. When you live in poverty, you have nothing to look forward to in life, how would you think when you have very few things that bind you to a community, especially your religion.
True to a point. The organization is one of thousands, it is not the biggest or the most threatening one around but it also isn't all Muslim for some reason. There are others involved who support the organization and those others could be Chinese or Russian, maybe they are Hindu or other.
So are those who are Muslim, potential is a key word. So we should just view all of them as terrorists and clean out the towns when we can't tell one from another?
No matter how you wish for something that will be impossible, it won't come true. Making gains matters on different levels, to us who seem to be safe behind our tv sets removed from those places where terrorist live, we can say that killing one or another will be a gain or plus but for those who are living there, like say Afghanistan, killing one person is meaningless and doesn't remover either the threat or the real danger.
I think we should seriously reexamine our position in the middle east and see what actually drives people to do these things - mainly if one would listen to the Muslims themselves, they may tell you the same thing I wrote in this post, but on the other hand until we grow up and start acting as this stuff won't beat us down, we will always have to deal with the threat in the way we are doing - with undirected force.
paullud
Veteran Expediter
We can start with the ones shooting at us.
Well I guess they will try to fight and likely die. The thing a lot of people don't understand is the Muslim terrorists are basically an Arab version of white supremacist military groups.
Muslims are everywhere so just because they are in Russia or China doesn't mean they aren't Muslims.
No I am not saying we should just vaporize the entire country. I think they should go to a town if they experience a little resistance then handle it on foot, if they experience a higher amount of resistance then just hit the area with missiles, if it is determined on the field that the entire town is the issue then they should nuke it.
When we show the people we are not going to leave them helpless and that we are going to fix the problem since we caused it we will have less of an issue because the recruiting won't be effective. We are viewed as weak because we don't stay in the fight, that is why Osama called us a paper tiger. When we show up using force looking like we are ready and willing to wipe them off the face of the planet it will take the fight out of a lot of them.
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RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Yup .....
..... and it's growing longer by the day ....
If one checks out alternative media and other sources of true independent, investigative journalism for the actual details of these "operations", rather than accepting the disingenuous pablum that is being spoonfed from various liars in the media/political/military/intel establishment, what one will find is that the truth of what actually happened is almost always very different than the aforementioned liars attempt to portray.
Quite often every time some "key person" gets taken out, a bunch of folks (5, 10, 20, 50 .... pick a number ... ) who aren't key people, and perhaps aren't even sympathetic, get taken out as well.
These folks could be anything - from passing acquaintances who literally have no idea who the "key person" actually is .... to someone who just happens in the vicinity.
IOW, something other than the correct target.
And that doesn't even account for the "Ooopsies .... we made a mistake .... it was actually just some goat herders" (which are not entirely rare, and which inevitably get spun as "a group of suspected insurgents" ....)
Now for those that aren't terribly bright, it is often the case that said "wrong targets" have families, relations, and friends that likely care about them. These folks tend to become rather ****ed off and enraged when their sons/daughters, husbands/wives, brothers/sisters, nieces/nephews and cousins are wantonly slaughtered and murdered.
Imagine that .....
Perhaps they just fail to understand how a little "shared sacrifice" by all is necessary .... to make the world a safer place ..... ostensibly for Joe Bupkis over here in the US, who sits in his living room flatulating himself, all while viewing today's NFL game or American Idol ..... and musing to himself just how lucky all them furiners are - even if the backwards heathen retards don't realize it - to have the good ol' US of A bringing them "freedom" .....
Perhaps the best defense that anyone might adopt is just simply to avoid doing utterly stupid **** that increases your enemies ranks by orders of magnitude.
Urined off .... there .... I had to say that .... because the built-in EO Censor-Matic™ wouldn't let me say ****ed off above .....
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paullud
Veteran Expediter
Not much of what you say is accurate or maybe you misstated it. The numbers of terrorists are decreasing not growing by the day. If you think a passing acquaintance doesn't know who the number 2 guy is then you have been sadly and very poorly misinformed by your alternative sources. Even worse is the fact that your poorly informed sources say "a group of suspected insurgents" means goat headers. Did they also inform you that alternative news sources can just make up what they want and that their reports are usually only opinion? It sounds more like your alternative sources have an agenda as they seemed to have convinced you that the death of a family member causes the family to turn into terrorists, it might be true on a limited basis but is an exception to the rule.
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RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Yup .... no doubt about it: we can make enough of them probably to kill every man, woman, and child on the planet.
But the real questions, for you and every American, are:
How many sons and daughters are you personally willing to sacrifice ?
How much national treasure will be enough ?
My guess is, after you have sacrificed the first one, you will probably find that your taste for it decreases substantially.
I sincerely hope for the sake of you and yours, you never have the opportunity to find out.
True .... but that doesn't mean that we have to be stupid about doing it. And, as you know as a former Cold Warrior, there are many ways of "fighting" ....
The real questions are:
1. Do you think we actually "won" the Cold War ?
2. How many years do you think it will actually take to "stop Al-Qaeda", and at what (monetary) cost, if it is continues to be "fought" in the present manner ?
Present cost of both wars (Afghanistan/Iraq) exceeds $1.2 trillion dollars, and does not count other aspects of the so-called "War on Terror":
Cost of War
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RLENT
Veteran Expediter
ROTFLMAO ..... right ... that's why IED attacks have skyrocketed - they're just trying to fake us out:
Stars and Stripes: Effective IED attacks in Afghanistan soar
Pentagon Report Shows Huge Jump in IED Attacks in Afghanistan
You don't by chance have any documented evidence to back up your assertion above do you ?
Right - just like when you pull in and fill up at a gas station far from home and go inside to pay, the clerk that takes your money "knows" all about you, and "who" you are, some local vegetable vendor in Pakistan knows who some guy is, who happens to pull up and hop out of a vehicle to buy tonight's dinner .... because all them Al-Qaeda dudes advertise on TV, and hand out business cards.
Pssst ... don't tell anyone .... but I heard the new No. 2 is slated to appear on a Pakistan TV gameshow next month ... and there's talk of a possible recurring role on a daytime soap .....
I'd say to at least try thinking and using common sense, but I'm afraid I'd be wasting my breath .... and your time and effort.
Nope - you altered it - what I said what that the USG will, and has, repeatedly misrepresented and lied about about various operations and who ended up as collateral damage.
That is a documented fact.
Check it out if ya want - provided ya have enough nut to do so ..... or just go with the spoonfed pablum .... either way, it's your call: the blue pill ... or the red pill ....
.... unless they report actual, documented facts ......
Of course, we all know that the USG would never, ever lie to it's own citizens ..... and never misrepresent or make things up ...... because they have a long and unblemished history of being honest and forthright ....
Next .....
An "exception to the rule" eh ?
What do they call that .. "paullud's rule" ?
.... dude, you are seriously funny ....
Nope .... it's just merely an observation of human nature .... one that is easily observable right here on EO, in terms of what our resident duck murderer has said, in terms of what he would do, if any harm were to befall his kid - he'd make those responsible pay.
People tend not like having those they love croaked .... most particularly when it's by a bunch of foreign yahoo cowboys .... whose intrusion into their lands they view as tantamount to a religious crusade ....
Probably why Pakistan told us to go pound salt and get the **** out of their country recently .....
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That doesn't even make sense from a common sense perspective, and it's 180 degrees from both the experts and the reality. Hatred of the US is rising all over the world, not because they are jealous of us, but because of our hegemonic foreign policies.
World opinion of the US has gone down since the 911 attacks, and rapidly. 911 and other recent events is our "canary in the coal mine", a warning sign that our international reputation is bad and that we must move to correct it or face more incidents. That means working cooperatively with other countries, not against them. We must be seen as a friend and not an enemy or a threat. Yet today, anti-American sentiment, along with hatred of all things American, is increasing, not decreasing. A poll by the Pew Research Center indicates that the number of Europeans with a favorable image of the US has plummeted, even among the coalition of the willing. In Italy, only 34% view the US positively, compared to 70% in 2002. In Spain, only 14% have a favorable image. Even in Eastern Europe, support for the US has dropped from 80% to 50% in Poland.We are clearly moving in the wrong direction. We are expending a lot of time, money, and resources to make things worse, instead of better. If out friends are starting to dislike us so much, how do you think out enemies feel about us?
And every time we kill a Muslim, intentionally or not, it's a de facto recruiting pitch for new enemy membership. They may not be official card-carrying al Qaeda members, but they're there just the same. An Army Major at Ft Hood, an AWOL soldier plotting the same thing, a lone man with an SUV in New York, there are plenty of examples.
With the Muslim world in turmoil, and our own continuing foreign policies, terrorist organizations are likely to find more and more recruits for their organizations. At times their recruits are unknown to terrorist leaders and commanders, but present a threat to nations throughout the world especially the United States and European Union members. In the international terrorism arena, over the next five years, it’s believed that the number of state-sponsored terrorist organizations may decline, but privately sponsored terrorist groups and otherwise "lone wolf" terrorists will increase in number. That's according to the FBI and the CIA.
All it takes is one kid who's father or mother were killed in collateral damage to develop a lifelong vendetta against us, and if he's Muslim, it doesn't take much for it to become a jihad ordained by Allah. And those kids are adding up fast.