About national Healthcare

[Lawrence]

>The last time I said anything about a Canadian critizing our
>system or govt. It offended someone here like the OWNER OF
>THIS SITE. Hmm you all are now as guilty as I was even
>though I believe you are right as I did myself.

Broom, You may say whatever you want to about Canada - and I won't be offended (as long as you don't critize it). LOL! Just kidding!

Lawrence,
Expediters Online.com

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[Tennesseahawk]

Cheri... peace of mind is something that doesn't seem to count on the satisfaction scale. A lot of the ppl raiding the government coffers or going into the emergency room with empty pockets have new cars. How does our system put up with that? How do the ppl in general put up with that? Granted, the illegal alien situation puts a huge strain on the system. But a few hundred a month will get a group policy for a single person, and a few more bux will get family coverage.

Things have to be put into priority in a person's life. Something is bound to happen, like your kidney infection, to wake ppl up to the reality that health care is needed. If it were something long term, say Parkinsons, what do they do without insurance? It's kinda like not having flood insurance in a flood zone. Sooner or later, it's time to pay. A lot of good that new plasma tv or Cadillac Escalade is gonna do you under water.

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas

 

[cheri1122]

Hawk, I'm not challenging your statement that a lot of people using the ED have new cars, because it's easy to get credit for things you don't need - in fact, the less necessary something is, the easier it is to get it on credit.
But I am saying that folks who work to support themselves and their families should have affordable health insurance, but we don't. If companies can afford to spend brazillions of dollars on advertising & executive compensation, why are the people who make the company successful going without health care?

 

[highway star]

My guess would be that there's a very significant number of people that fall into the category that Hawk describes. A nice house full of nice things, an extra car in the garage that they hardly ever use but just HAD to have, but just can't seem to afford health insurance. My BCBS bill is my least favorite one to pay. It's easy to come up with a bunch of things that would be more fun to do with that money.

In a society where we are free to make the choices we want, it can be frustrating to see some that people make. Yes, some people are in a situation where they just don't have the money. But, how many of these people are in that situation by choice? If you're earning minimum wage, does it make sense to start a family? I think not, but people do it, then have to be subsidized by taxpayers. Good paying jobs? They're still out there, there just aren't as many that only require a pulse and respiration. Skills are needed more than ever before.

I don't know how we would come up with numbers to support an argument, but I think choices are more involved than true hardships in this situation.

 

[cheri1122]

More interesting facts, courtesy of the U S Census Bureau: slightly over half of full time workers in the USA earn $25,000 or less, per year.
Nearly 75% of all households, owner occupied and rental, pay more than 30% of their income for housing.

If you earn $25,000 per year, and pay more than 30% for housing, how do you pay for everything you ought to have, including health insurance & higher education, (either college or vocational school), plus saving for retirement. emergencies, etc? Show me a budget, please, that covers it all, cause I can't imagine stretching money that far, and if I can't, then someone with less education, or intelligence, surely can't either.

The biggest problem here isn't the poor choices people make, it's the limited choices available to low income workers, which is half the full time workers in the country! Our biggest problem is the lack of jobs that pay enough to live on. Since most companies are making healthy profits, who is benefiting?

Oh, yeah: regarding the comment on McDonald's paying $10 an hour, the reason so many teens & retired folks work at McDonald's, is the policy limiting hours to way less than fulltime, in most stores (like WalMart, the largest US employer, does). That is great for some teens & retirees, but forces someone who needs fulltime employment to try to coordinate two jobs, which is difficult, at best. My teenage daughter has been doing it for a year, and one boss or the other is always mad at her!

And regarding the difficulty of getting mineworkers: the recent stories of mining deaths point out how dangerous the job is, and how little oversight there is, to enforct the regulations that exist. I wouldn't do it, even if I were physically capable, and I wouldn't want anyone I know doing it either. The huge mining companies put profit ahead of worker safety, and the workers who ignore that fact, because they need the money, are injured or killed.
I believe our leaders have their priorities seriously mixed up, and should be reminded that LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

 

[highway star]

Someone growing up in a low income household has lots of options for a higher education. Grants, scholorships, low or no interest loans...
Supporting a household should come after the education. I wish I had gone to college. I was accepted at 2 universities and didn't go. The ever increasing importance of matriculating was evident even in the early '70s. And now, more than ever.

Wait a minute, won't matriculating make you go blind?

 

[copdsux]

No, you just do it 'til you need glasses!!:+ :+

 

[Broompilot]

I am not saying what you all are debating is good or bad, but it sounds like socialism to me. Now I ask is this what we all want?

Is Canada more socialist than the USA?

Rich punks P me O also Donald Trumps of the world, T. Owens who could not care less about the working class, but would it not be socialism to take there $ and use it for everyones benefit? I can stand on both sides of the fence one thing I cannot do with this question is really make up my mind. Yes I would love health care for all, but do I want to pay for your bad habits? NO...but I probably am anyway.

 

[Jayman]

Your right. We are to some extent paying for others bad habits. I dont mind helping others who really need it, but... I dont want a system that overtly takes money from those who achieve and gives it to the ones who dont. How does that inspire our society to do their best and give it their all? People work off the incentive program. Without the incentive, our society will become even more stagnant than it is already...

 

[Tennesseahawk]

You have those who think higher education is a right, and not a privilage. I for one think that if someone had to work to make it thru college, they'd be a lot better off for it. My nephew is a perfect example. He drops his classes half way thru the semester and joins again next semester with renewed vigor. He's done this nearly every time. If he had to work and pay for these classes out of pocket, he'd choose his classes more carefully, and put forth a little more effort in the ones he's having trouble in. But since the government is paying everything (I don't think he fully understands what a LOAN is), the money is free to him. And you know that something that is free isn't worth the same as something you paid for.

Gotta agree with Highway about the family planning. It's another example of gratification now and screw the consequences. It falls in line with insurance. The money is better used, in their eyes, to buy goodies. Why do you think employers have to take money out each paycheck? No one would save to pay their taxes.

I, for one, am disgusted that ppl don't mind paying for other ppl's messes. Not necessarily talking about healthcare here, but more the attitude of those who expect free government services. The illegals are one big problem. But you also have corporations that can't stay afloat, like the airlines and the S&Ls of the 80s and 90s. Then there's the welfare (expletives) who expect to live without doing a damm thing but pumping out babies. I believe charity begins at home, but no one in their right mind would be charitable to the above three examples. It all comes back to personal responsibility. When do you have to stop being responsible for yourself, so the government can step in and take over being your mother? We let it happen, mostly cause we never see the money we spend on it in the first place. But if we did...

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas

 

[cheri1122]

The biggest mess we are paying for, IMO, is the government! And yes, I expect "free" services: education, police, firefighters, schools, roads, traffic control, libraries, public parks and recreation areas, preservation of some wilderness, common defense, (military, National Guard, Coast Guard) for the money they take from my earnings. But from what I read, every one except the defense industry, and most of the big corporations is struggling to do more with less, just like us working folk. And worst of all, the money for defense isn't helping our soldiers, much, either!
I don't believe in taking from the rich to give to the poor, Communism doesn't work. Period.
But neither do I believe in taking from those who produce, while turning a blind eye to those who merely take from the system. I'm not referring to "people who do nothing but pump out babies", either, because that problem has been addressed. Welfare has been made more as it was intended to be: a safety net, not a way of life. Check out the eligibility rules, if you believe anyone gets paid to "do nothing", you might be surprised at what a myth that is these days. The generations of welfare families is a problem that needed fixed, and that's been done, by simply cutting off the flow of money. Providing training, for those capable of working, is at least being attempted, but providing jobs that allow people to raise a family, that is where the system is failing.
The "American dream" of getting a job, working hard, paying taxes and bills, plus saving for our retirement and our children's education, buying a modest home, taking an occasional vacation, having the security of health insurance, just in case- all depends one two things: willingness to work for it, and a job that pays enough to cover it all, if one is prudent with spending.
Many people seem to think that what is lacking today is the work ethic, but what I see as lacking is the job that rewards it.
If the poor can't pay taxes, and the rich don't, who shoulders the entire burden?