60/40?/fair?

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Your wrong Hawk, You think owners keep the same pads and straps in the truck for 10 years. I dont know about you, but pads need to be cleaned and some need to be replaced. You have to replace the equitment when it breaks. White Glove equitment is not cheap, a skinnny Bun for a CR or DR can cost almost $3000.00. I had to pay out over $4700.00 White Glove equitment for and ER unit with Fedex and that was just some of it.

Some people think owners and Fleet managers are just sitting watching TV, your damm wrong. I get out here and do the same job you do. And BTW Yes truck owner should get some of the D-time it's the customer that is holding that truck up and the drivers from getting there next load. Keeping the truck owner also from making money. Look at the big picture my friend. I'm Glad to see you an Owner now Hawk. Now you will be able to see form the other side of the fence.

I'm not talking big item costs, like liftgates and such. I'm talking standard items like straps, blankets, and pallet jacks. Besides, we're talking loading and unloading pay. Strapping and blankets don't add in there, to me. That could be either a split, or an all owner, or all driver pay. It's freight securement. Nothing big. But nickel and diming drivers on load and unload pay is akin to charging them for using the toilet paper in your house. Just my opinion.

Apparently you're successful, and have happy drivers. So you keep doing what you're doing. BTW, I've already seen this side of the fence. That's why I'm here. And I believe I don't have to give my shirt so any driver of mine can make a decent wage. We'll see if I'm wrong.

Oh...btw, I wasn't aiming at you personally about sitting on the couch. I'm saying in general about fleet owners. Normally, owners don't do the driving. They do the sitting and collecting. Granted, they make the investment. But a lot don't take care of the drivers like they should.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Almost $3000 for what amounts to a room divider?! Even with insulation & E track fittings, that's outrageous! Couldn't you (not you specifically, but someone handy) fabricate something close, for a LOT less money?
 

nightcreacher

Veteran Expediter
Its easy,before fsc 20% to each driver,then truck gets 20% plus fsc,whom ever pays for fuel pays fuel taxes,and tolls
 

Bruno

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
US Marines
I'm not talking big item costs, like liftgates and such. I'm talking standard items like straps, blankets, and pallet jacks. Besides, we're talking loading and unloading pay. Strapping and blankets don't add in there, to me. That could be either a split, or an all owner, or all driver pay. It's freight securement. Nothing big. But nickel and diming drivers on load and unload pay is akin to charging them for using the toilet paper in your house. Just my opinion.

Apparently you're successful, and have happy drivers. So you keep doing what you're doing. BTW, I've already seen this side of the fence. That's why I'm here. And I believe I don't have to give my shirt so any driver of mine can make a decent wage. We'll see if I'm wrong.

Oh...btw, I wasn't aiming at you personally about sitting on the couch. I'm saying in general about fleet owners. Normally, owners don't do the driving. They do the sitting and collecting. Granted, they make the investment. But a lot don't take care of the drivers like they should.

Where on the same page then Hawk, Yea if a driver is busting his or her butt to unload the truck, yea we try to give them most of it. They all know that, I have even ask them to call me when that happens so they can write it down on their weekly paperwork they send to us. They understand that equitment is not cheap and it does break. For the most part it just helps to replace and fix things if that.

As for drivers you can't make everyone happy, I have learned that over the years. At this point in this game, drivers can say they are good drivers. I'm like "don't tell me you are, show me you are". I get mad when I see drivers saying their not making any money, But yet they want to go in service at 16:00 on a Tuesday or Wednesday and then complain there not making any money because they are back home by Thursday of the next week. Starting out in the middle of the week is a killer in this business.
 

Bruno

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
US Marines
Almost $3000 for what amounts to a room divider?! Even with insulation & E track fittings, that's outrageous! Couldn't you (not you specifically, but someone handy) fabricate something close, for a LOT less money?

It would cost you alot to buy the things to make it. Remember it has to be water proof and its covered in leather. Most pad compaines make them, those compaines make stuff like the padding for the goal post in the end zone.
 

jwc

Seasoned Expediter
But doesn't the truck make more money just to have the equiment on there . So how can you claim to take money away from a driver taking a chance on getting hurt and then not being able to work for a few weeks. I forgot then you just find someone to replace them then they lose 3 ways.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
That is a good point. It is actually one (but not limited to) the reason we stopped using them.
If the one truck owner operator is using them and finds a benefit, all well and good. From a fleet owners prospective, the liabilities outweigh the gains.
 

Kyreax

Seasoned Expediter
OK - I've sat on ye ol' sidelines long enough.;)

There seems to be a huge gap between the employee and employer mentality here, and I'll tell ya, its the same in my business.

DISCLAIMER: I have been an employee. I was a **** good one. I never expected something for nothing, I always worked my butt off. I am going to be an employee once again for a few months in this field.

I have had the "entitled employee" working for me. The entitled employee will always have NO practical understanding of how a business works. They just see gross revenue and say "why am I not making ALL of that amount? I'm doing all the work!"

Well, no, they're not. They didn't invest hundreds of thousands of dollars to start the business. They are an employee that was hired soley to make my company money. They weren't hired to make best friends, They weren't hired to make THEM money. I guarantee you that a company would NOT hire employees if it could make the same amount of money without them. It's not a "partnership" either, by any definition. A partnership would entail equal decision making and some ultimate say. If you think of yourself as a "partner" and you're an employee, you're fooling yourself!

If you think you're a partner in a business in which you are an employee, you're merely entitling yourself to something that doesn't belong to you.

Any time money comes into a company, the company must get its share. Any money whatsoever. Doesn't matter if the employee does the work! That's the point. They are not entitled to 100% of anything as an employee. Why would a business have any thing to do with an employee that's not making them money every moment of the work day?

Example: I charge $35 an hour for basic carpentry. The carpenter gets $15 per hour, my company gets the rest. Why? I bought all the tools ($), I own the shop ($), I pay the electric bill ($), I do all the paperwork, I find the customers etc, etc.

When it all comes out, I net about $5 per hour per carpenter. ****, I must be greedy, expecting that HUGE of a return on my investment! :rolleyes:

It's not greed, it's not unfair, it's BUSINESS. It's the American way. The company must make money first, employees will always come second. I'm sorry if the truth hurts, but that's how it is. People claiming greed or dishonesty are just plain ignorant of how a business operates.

Simple Solution If you don't like your current situation, go buy your own business and take all the risk yourself. The rewards are higher and the risk is much much greater. If you're incapable of doing so or just won't, that's your choice. Problem is, everybody thinks that they are entitled without any risk or investment. That's just plain BS, and it's lazy.

Unfortunately, it's fast becoming the "new" American Way. Something for nothing. I want it all, I want it now, but I don't want to earn it.

OK, I'm done. Rant over.:cool:
 

Kyreax

Seasoned Expediter
But doesn't the truck make more money just to have the equiment on there . So how can you claim to take money away from a driver taking a chance on getting hurt and then not being able to work for a few weeks. I forgot then you just find someone to replace them then they lose 3 ways.

You think that there's a good chance of the driver getting hurt by just doing their job and therefore is entitled to all the income? That's really a reach to even bring that up. The truck (i.e. Business) must make money for the employee to have a job.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
When it all comes out, I net about $5 per hour per carpenter. ****, I must be greedy, expecting that HUGE of a return on my investment! :rolleyes:

Shhh... the expediting Gods will be angry....

Don't you know that ROI is part of the secrets of the universe never to revealed to mere mortals?
 

Scott777

Seasoned Expediter
I don't reply to to many things but I need to add more fuel to the fire!
When you spec out a truck, you spec it out for what you are going to be doing, or the freight you are going to try and go after.. You spec out a stainless steel rear door frame and get the largest dimension opening you can get to try and capitalize on freight with bigger dimensions that your neighbor cannot haul.. You spec out lightweght components on the truck to haul more weight.. You get deck fittings in your box.. Spec components that have optimum warranty.. LED lights all around to save alternator and batteries.. I could go on and on about specs and things to increase your chances of getting a load that your neighbor could not haul, but you spec your truck out to make money.. Dispatch would not be calling you to haul a liftgate load if you did not have a liftgate, so we know it pays better.. Just like the load that is 1 inch to tall to go into your neighbors truck and you get the load because you spec'd out a bigger door frame.. Now if I'm driving your truck, are you going to charge me or take a percentage because you ordered some xtras to increase your chances when I accept the load that is overdimension and needs to be chained to the deck..I have now used your big door and your deck fittings, are you charging me for them??? We have not even started talking about the shower you installed and the porta potty, refrigerator, satellite TV, Micro.,Onan 7K gen., CB Radio ect... All these are tools of the trade to entice the better drivers or to keep turnover down..Do you charge them to take a shower or pee in the truck???
Now lets say the truck grosses $12,000 a month.. 40 % is $4800 a month.
If an average payment is $2000 a month you would have $2800 a month to maintain the truck.. If you put more than $33,600 a year into a truck you need a new truck. This does not even go into the write offs, depreciation, part of your home office, all the little things that go with day to day operations..
Since the owner is giving 60% to the team to pay for fuel, tolls, scale tickets, does he also overmaintain the truck to make sure the truck is running optimum to help the drivers get the most out of there 60%?? Synthetic oil, fuel efficient tires, Air-Tabs, regular overheads, wheel alignments(70,000 mi) balancing(20,000), greasing chassis every week,regular truck washes..
My point is you get 40%, anything else should be the Drivers.. If I run alot of miles you make alot of money... Hey $12000 is low.. $20000 40% is $8000..
I just touched on a little bit.. Being a fleet owner is not about managing trucks, try to manage your drivers and get the good ones or help the ones that need help and educate them on how to take care of your equipment and make it last and inventory the equipment you let them use..You can't charge for Farkles!!
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
A lot of good discussion but even with all that I remain on the position that when you get past the base rates to the accessorials some of that is "people" pay and should go 100% to the people doing the work and some is "time" pay and goes equally to anyone whose time is involved.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I don't reply to to many things but I need to add more fuel to the fire!
When you spec out a truck, you spec it out for what you are going to be doing, or the freight you are going to try and go after.. You spec out a stainless steel rear door frame and get the largest dimension opening you can get to try and capitalize on freight with bigger dimensions that your neighbor cannot haul.. You spec out lightweght components on the truck to haul more weight.. You get deck fittings in your box.. Spec components that have optimum warranty.. LED lights all around to save alternator and batteries.. I could go on and on about specs and things to increase your chances of getting a load that your neighbor could not haul, but you spec your truck out to make money.. Dispatch would not be calling you to haul a liftgate load if you did not have a liftgate, so we know it pays better.. Just like the load that is 1 inch to tall to go into your neighbors truck and you get the load because you spec'd out a bigger door frame.. Now if I'm driving your truck, are you going to charge me or take a percentage because you ordered some xtras to increase your chances when I accept the load that is overdimension and needs to be chained to the deck..I have now used your big door and your deck fittings, are you charging me for them??? We have not even started talking about the shower you installed and the porta potty, refrigerator, satellite TV, Micro.,Onan 7K gen., CB Radio ect... All these are tools of the trade to entice the better drivers or to keep turnover down..Do you charge them to take a shower or pee in the truck???
Now lets say the truck grosses $12,000 a month.. 40 % is $4800 a month.
If an average payment is $2000 a month you would have $2800 a month to maintain the truck.. If you put more than $33,600 a year into a truck you need a new truck. This does not even go into the write offs, depreciation, part of your home office, all the little things that go with day to day operations..
Since the owner is giving 60% to the team to pay for fuel, tolls, scale tickets, does he also overmaintain the truck to make sure the truck is running optimum to help the drivers get the most out of there 60%?? Synthetic oil, fuel efficient tires, Air-Tabs, regular overheads, wheel alignments(70,000 mi) balancing(20,000), greasing chassis every week,regular truck washes..
My point is you get 40%, anything else should be the Drivers.. If I run alot of miles you make alot of money... Hey $12000 is low.. $20000 40% is $8000..
I just touched on a little bit.. Being a fleet owner is not about managing trucks, try to manage your drivers and get the good ones or help the ones that need help and educate them on how to take care of your equipment and make it last and inventory the equipment you let them use..You can't charge for Farkles!!

I think you are missing the BIGGER picture. I don't want to imply that fleet owners aren't making money, but you are showing a picture perfect world that isn't there. Using YOUR numbers, you think that the truck is averaging 12,000 each month. For many, that isn't the case.
What about months like Nov,Dec, and July. Truck may only run a portion of those months. Since the owners truck is sitting and they are still incurring costs, where does that come from? If I cut that number in half using YOUR numbers, that owner is in the red. Why? Because you still have insurance, QC fees and other costs while it is sitting.
On to some other costs,
Using your numbers once again, lets see what comes out of that 2800 "profit"

1. Breakdowns This can include a tow all the way to a total engine failure. Just a tow and a basic engine repair can quickly turn to 2,000 plus the downtime. Even on new trucks. Or the posts I see where the truck breaks down but now the truck is parked waiting on parts. Very true the driver isn't making money, but driver costs pale in comparison to the rest.
You imply "buy another truck" Pretty simple until you figure those costs to trade. Could be a 20k to 30k differential. Where exactly does that come from?
2. If a engine blows, that could be 10k to 30k. Again, where does that come from?
3. YOUR prescribed maintenance. Oil changes, tires, and just general maintenance is going to run 10k a year on a 2 year old truck. Again....where does that come from?
4. What happens on the months there is no driver in the truck?
Those costs keep coming. People leave for a variety reasons. It wouldn't always be because the owner didn't have the ability to retain them. Health, family issues and emergencies, carrier issues that are well out of the owners control. Some things could be self inflicted, but certainly not all.
5. What about the truck that is involved in an accident whether it is the drivers fault or not. Payments and all costs keep coming plus insurance deductible. It may take months to recover all or part of those costs. Again......where does that money come from?
6. If a owner suddenly finds himself with a poor performing carrier and has to move, that entails huge costs in transportation, orientation costs, re-lettering trucks, and so forth. Remember, he is carrying the risk.
7. New driver costs. If a new team is hired, you have many associated costs with that. It varies of course from carrier to carrier, but you still have to get the truck there, drug test, physicals, lodging for orientation.
8. Driver quits and one may have recovery or damage costs. Could be a little or a lot. Again, where does that cash come from?

I could go on, but I think most get the picture. I don't believe that for many fleet owners, that 2800 dollars you refer to, goes quite as far as you think. I wrote a post that expands on this a bit more a few days ago. Better think twice before you go down that "yellow brick road" of fleet ownership.

http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/general-expediter-forum/30917-fleet-owner-observation.html
 
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Vinnie T

Seasoned Expediter
Dave is right

Fleet owners need to find that balance

1. Pay driver good money
2. Make enough money to maintain the truck and make truck payments
3. Make enough money to sock away for major repairs and shutdown/slow times of the year
4. Misc costs, recruiting, accounting fees, office supplies etc.
5. Still try to find a way to pay your drivers good money for all the hard work they do while paying all these expenses to warrent even doing it!

To sit here and say drivers should get this and that without knowing the math that goes into being a fleet owner I think is unrealistic.
 
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Scott777

Seasoned Expediter
Owning trucks is like playing the stock market.. There is risk involved.. davekc explains all the things that can go wrong, and how much money is not being made.. If there is not a chance of making money, why do it???? You have made money in the past or you would not be doing it.. Maybe you are a truckdriver philanthropist!?
You talk about health issues, carrier problems, family problems, accidents, emergencies, and major breakdowns the owner must incur on the drivers part.. If the driver must help the owner incur these risks, why not go out and buy a truck of his own.. I am not a first time owner of trucks, trucking at this time in the economy requires micromanaging of operation.. Profit margins are not very big, look at the O/R at the major carriers in this country.. When freight is blowin' and goin' strong and revenue is up they are ridin' the wave, and when times are tough you can't expect the "Driver" to help share the risk.. When you are making big "Profit" for the year, do you give free money to the driver?? He shared the risk, now share the profit, he did the work.. You can have the Best truck in the industry, Highest freight rates in the country, Best customers, but without a Good Driver you have nothing!!!
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Vinnie has it right. That is why I post that info for the benefit of the new or maybe just the ill informed. A whole lot of things go in the mix. It isn't as cut and dry as some may have been lead to believe.

When things are booming, the driver is benefiting as well aren't they? Unless of course they are on salary or something.

Not all costs are incurred specifically from the driver. But obviously many are. It is a component of the financial picture that has to be accounted for either way. In otherwords, it is still a cost of doing business.
 
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pjjjjj

Veteran Expediter
My pet peeve is when the owner of a business has to justify to his employees why he needs to make $X in gross revenue, even though the employee is only earning $x, in order to make his business worthwhile enough for him to remain in business, and thereby keep the employee employed.

To me, it's kinda like the mentality of a Walmart cashier figuring as long as there's $8.00 in sales (his hourly rate) going through his till every hour, the company is breaking even.

If a driver doesn't get any runs for a month, he's also not spending the money on fuel, and maybe he ends up with zero, (which of course, is horrible), but the owner ends up .. how many thousand dollars in the minus column, which he has to find a way to pull out of his..... air.

Re the insurance in the event of an accident.. that doesn't even touch on the increases to the owner's premiums for the entire fleet, for what.. 5 years? 7 years?

Comes back to who's taking what level of risk, for what and for who, and how everyone has to work together to make the business work, to be profitable for both sides.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
PJJJJJ

good post and like the analogy


According to some, being that 8.00 an hour cashier entitles them to partial ownership of the store if it has a busy day. After all, they are doing all the work.:rolleyes:
 
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