$265,000 to welfare in a few years-

[chefdennis]

cheri wrote:

The biggest and wealthiest have gone far beyond exploiting tax loopholes, they've distorted the entire premise of the tax code. For example: establishing a 'presence' that consists of a bank account in a foreign country in order to claim it as a 'base'. Creating 'shell companies'. Creating wholly owned subsidiaries simply to recoup or recycle what they would otherwise have to pay in tax.
We ordinary folks have no such options, so we pay what the government requires.

Well that last sentence isn't quite true...yes while the wealthy do have the most writeoffs and shelter more income, they also pay more of the taxes collected in this country. Also consider there are so many breaks that 45 percent of U.S. households will pay no federal income tax for 2010. Because many of the biggest tax breaks benefit millions of American families at just about every income level.The vast majority of those who escape federal income taxes have low and medium incomes. That leaves the top income earns to pay the largest share of the income tax collected....More than half of the nation's tax revenue came from the top 10 percent of earners in 2007. More than 44 percent came from the top 5 percent.*

So yea while the highest income earns do avoid paying a large portion of taxes on their income, so do millions of other Americas, including those at the lower and middle income brackets. Most people pay more in taxes then they should, because they are not aggresive enough to take the deductions that they are allowed to take, they are worried about the IRS and an aduit...thats just wrong, everyone should take advantage of all the tax codes and deductions that the system has bulit into it for them....not to do so is just foolish....

*The above info was taken from an article i posted in a seperate thread.

 

[layoutshooter]

We must also keep in mind that one of the biggest things in the way of people moving up is our "Progressive Income Tax". As will all taxes of it's type it is designed to "protect old money" and keep the "lower classes" in their place. It is absolutely one of the most VILE things in this country. The harder you work, the better you do, the more they take. It is VERY difficult to really get ahead. Typical "NeoLib" thinking. As with MOST "NeoLib" thinking it is ONLY there to increase THEIR power and status and keep everyone else down.

 

[witness23]

there are so many breaks that 45 percent of U.S. households will pay no federal income tax for 2010. Because many of the biggest tax breaks benefit millions of American families at just about every income level.The vast majority of those who escape federal income taxes have low and medium incomes. That leaves the top income earns to pay the largest share of the income tax collected....More than half of the nation's tax revenue came from the top 10 percent of earners in 2007. More than 44 percent came from the top 5 percent.*

*The above info was taken from an article i posted in a seperate thread.

The disclaimer was totally unnecessary for obvious reasons.

 

[davekc]

I would wonder of the 45 percent who don't pay anything are actually collecting something in the form of a benefit from the Fed?

 

[greg334]

They should get the benefit of what they paid in and that is it. That is the whole purpose of the program.

Dave,
As an employer, I paid the unemployment insurance to the state, employees didn't pay into the system so they don't deserve anything, right?

When I worked, I don't ever remember having a deduction line called Unemployment.

 

[layoutshooter]

I wonder just how many Americans are receiving UNEARNED federal benefits like welfare or food stamps? They do NOTHING to earn this money. The "Robin Hood" state takes it from those who EARN their way through life and GIVES it to those who do not. They contribute little to nothing to society but yet are a huge drain on it's resources.

 

[davekc]

Dave,
As an employer, I paid the unemployment insurance to the state, employees didn't pay into the system so they don't deserve anything, right?

When I worked, I don't ever remember having a deduction line called Unemployment.

True. But just like most unions, they consider that part of their compensation package regardless of the origin of the payment check.

 

[cheri1122]

I understand the frustration of knowing that some people are getting what they didn't 'earn' and don't 'deserve'. I've worked my whole life too, without ever getting a dime from the gov't, except for a few weeks of unemployment every year, when the factory scaled back. [And even though it was an annual event, the company wouldn't provide a 'return to work' date, so the gov't required me to apply for another job twice a week. Which is why I believe that even when they grudgingly give folks benefits, they require proof that the benefits are not being paid for laziness.]
I just think your views are behind the times, is all. Beginning with Reagan, welfare stopped being a way of life for those who could work - as it should have. And since then, [as DaveKC mentioned], many, if not most states are in serious financial straits - do you think they're spending money on lazy people? I don't. They seem to spend pretty freely on some stupid things, but poor people and the unemployed are not high on that list.
The biggest change is that people have lost their jobs, and aren't finding any comparable opportunities. The jobs they can get are low paid, part time, no benefits, thanks to the same corporate mentality that gets tax breaks and incentives, but feels no obligation to anything except the 'shareholders'. [As if investment is supposed to guarantee a return - since when?] These people spend weeks, then months, looking for work that will pay the bills, and it gets discouraging, then depressing, to keep NOT getting hired for the few jobs that even come close to replacing the income they earned for years. Meanwhile, because unemployment equals about half what one earned, they're spending their savings to pay the bills, and when that's gone, then what? Credit cards? Move in with relatives who don't have enough space for more? Try to juggle 2 or 3 part time jobs? [Employers are SOOO accommodating with flexible schedules, right?]
In my experience, most people have a work ethic [ala Maslow's hierarchy], and want to be useful and productive - it's human nature.Even the woman who was on paid leave for years worked 12 years before that, and you don't get there being lazy or irresponsible, IMO.
People haven't changed - the nature of business has. Profit is the be all and end all, and if that puts hundreds of thousands out of work, [unless you're pretty high on the corporate food chain, where you get rewarded generously even for admitted failure and/or incompetence] too bad, so sad, that's life.
Let them eat cake, right?

 

[layoutshooter]

There is SO much fraud in the welfare system, as with all government give away programs that it is beyond belief. People apply under multiple names. ILLEGAL residents get un-earned benefits, like education, health care etc. That is costing the states billions.

Unemployement is not welfare. The new extra weeks are.

Many stay on welfare till kicked off, work a crap job for a few months, then go right back on. Not to mention Section 8 housing that has NO time limits. NO work requirements either. UNEARNED benefit.

What are people to do when there is no work where they live? Like everyone else has done in history, move where there is work.

There are TONS of open jobs in PA in the new gas fields. They are having trouble finding qualified people to fill them. You work a crap job or three, spend a few months at ITT tech learning weld pipe and move there. Then you go on at ITT tech and learn pipe fitting. You do what you have to do.

That is EXACTLY what I did in the 70's when things were in the dumps in Detroit. I moved to England. Went to work with a skill I had. Left all my family except my wife and son who came along behind. That is how it is done.

Don't have a skill? GET ONE. That is how responsible people act.

There is NO valid reason for an able bodied person to be on welfare for more than a few months.

Take my nieces whatever he is. HE has NEVER held a job to this day. His excuse? Had to stay home and take care of mommy. BULL FEATHERS. His responsibility is to HIS family, HIS kids. He could have even joined the military or the Coast Guard. NOPE, TOO lazy.

NO ONE is ENTITLED to other money. EVERYONE is 100% (except truly disabled people) for their own lives.

People have gone through this before, nothing new today. There have ALWAYS been good times and bad. This bad time is NO worse than many others.

MOST people in the past did it on their own. Most can now. Tough times, hard work and overcoming these things BUILDS confidence and character.

By the way, your new font is FAR easier to read. I like it. One suggestion. Put an extra space between your quotes and your answers, that would be the icing on the cake.

 

[cheri1122]

There is SO much fraud in the welfare system, as with all government give away programs that it is beyond belief. People apply under multiple names. ILLEGAL residents get un-earned benefits, like education, health care etc. That is costing the states billions.
Then find the fraud, and fix the system.

Unemployement is not welfare. The new extra weeks are.

Not if THERE ARE NO JOBS BECAUSE GREED SENT THEM WHERE IT'S CHEAPER.

Many stay on welfare till kicked off, work a crap job for a few months, then go right back on. Not to mention Section 8 housing that has NO time limits. NO work requirements either. UNEARNED benefit.

Never saw Section 8 housing that wasn't a ghetto - you'd have to be sorry trash to live there voluntarily.

What are people to do when there is no work where they live? Like everyone else has done in history, move where there is work.

When people need to uproot their families and move for a job, society has failed. People need their families as much as they need employment [for childcare, if nothing else] and what happens if the job doesn't last? Not an acceptable solution for most, but an admission of failure of the capitalist system to provide for the folks who keep it running and make it work.

There are TONS of open jobs in PA in the new gas fields. They are having trouble finding qualified people to fill them. You work a crap job or three, spend a few months at ITT tech learning weld pipe and move there. Then you go on at ITT tech and learn pipe fitting. You do what you have to do.

You do what you can - not everyone CAN learn to weld. [I did, though] And you forget that half the people who need work also need to care for their children, plus some aged parents.

That is EXACTLY what I did in the 70's when things were in the dumps in Detroit. I moved to England. Went to work with a skill I had. Left all my family except my wife and son who came along behind. That is how it is done.

Not in a balanced and prosperous society, it isn't. Families need to be together, and society needs to accommodate families, not just employers.

Don't have a skill? GET ONE. That is how responsible people act.

Well, I've got a personal story, too: my nephew went to a trade school, to get a skill [auto mechanic for Honda]. But he found that getting a job is easy, getting paid well is another thing: the dealerships will allow him to perform only those repairs for which he has his own [very expensive] tools. When not performing repairs, he can still work, as a 'porter', at near minimum wage. While repaying the student loan, he sure can't afford to buy the tools, so his skill is not much use, is it? I used to think a trade is a good thing, but sometimes, it's just another rigged game. He is working an extra part time job, too, and still can't afford to pay rent - there's the reward for working hard, eh?

There is NO valid reason for an able bodied person to be on welfare for more than a few months.

There are a LOT of reasons, none of which are laziness.

Take my nieces whatever he is. HE has NEVER held a job to this day. His excuse? Had to stay home and take care of mommy. BULL FEATHERS. His responsibility is to HIS family, HIS kids. He could have even joined the military or the Coast Guard. NOPE, TOO lazy.

NO ONE is ENTITLED to other money. EVERYONE is 100% (except truly disabled people) for their own lives.

People have gone through this before, nothing new today. There have ALWAYS been good times and bad. This bad time is NO worse than many others.

MOST people in the past did it on their own. Most can now. Tough times, hard work and overcoming these things BUILDS confidence and character.

If the US is suffering from a lack of character, it's evidenced by the loss of jobs for the many to profit the few.
Without jobs, we have no hope of stability, much less prosperity, and without stability and prosperity for most, it's not a civilized society any longer.

By the way, your new font is FAR easier to read. I like it. One suggestion. Put an extra space between your quotes and your answers, that would be the icing on the cake.

Trial and error, like everything else.

 

[layoutshooter]

That is FAR easier to read, thank you. I still don't agree.

It is NOT the function of society to provide one with a living. It is NOT a function of government to provide jobs.

We BOTH want the best for everyone. We only disagree on the method.

I believe that ONLY tough love works. IF all these government programs were SO effective we would have NO poor left!!

My granddad went into the coal mines at 10 years old to help feed his family. He worked in the mines till he was killed in one at age 62. My dad went into the coal mine at 15. He went on, after the war, to feed HIS family working in a salt mine.

There are PLENTY of good jobs out there. If you have to move you have to move. Mankind has done that since he first left Africa. There is NOTHING new in that. My grand parents came form Italy and NEVER saw their parents again. WHY? A better life. My other grand parents came from Poland and Slovinia. They never saw anyone they left behind either. Those who moved from the east coast to Indiana in the early days of our country often never seen those they left behind or even heard from them again. People have always done this, people are tough enough to handle it.

There is PLENTY of good Section 8 housing out there. My niece lives in a nice house, of course, she pays NOTHING. I also suggest that much of Section 8 housing is bad because of those who live in it. It is NOT theirs, they have NO vested interest and EXPECT to be cared for. They do NOT take care of it or respect it.

There are MANY trade school grads who started working for others and went on to build their own business. When the going gets tough the tough get going.

It all boils down to only one thing in my mind. It is solely the responsibility of each individual to make or break it on their own merit.

I don;t know about you, but I would rather die broke on my own then comfortable and cared for.

When we CHOSE to have kids WE did what it took to support them. I expect NOTHING less of todays generation. I believe the the ability of EVERY man to rise above the challenges put before him. The greater the challenge the greater the reward in overcoming it.

It is the overcoming of challenge, by ones own efforts, that strengthens the individual and mankind as a whole.

There is NO challenge too great that it cannot be overcome by effort. It may take a lifetime, but it can ALWAYS be done.

It is NOT the amount you end up with that matters it is how you obtain what you have that does.

 

[DannyD]

Cheri, replying to ya bit by bit.

The biggest and wealthiest have gone far beyond exploiting tax loopholes, they've distorted the entire premise of the tax code. For example: establishing a 'presence' that consists of a bank account in a foreign country in order to claim it as a 'base'. Creating 'shell companies'.

Some have for sure. Not all. I have another friend, also a good friend of the guy the story is about, who's pretty wealthy. He's done none of what you just said. He has definately thought of some of the things you mention though. This guy pays & pays & pays & pays. While thee's no way he's gonna just give everything up, I'm wondering when he'll hit his breaking point. "Breaking point" would be taking his company elsewhere for instance or something along those lines.

Creating wholly owned subsidiaries simply to recoup or recycle what they would otherwise have to pay in tax.
We ordinary folks have no such options, so we pay what the government requires.

Right. But that's the governments fault. Ya really can't blame someone who's paid out their backsides for taking a loophole allowed to them. Not sure if ya watch 60 Minutes. There was an episode on it about how these major companies (Google & Cisco were the ones I can remember, there were a few others though) who took their headquarters to Switzerland. 60 Minutes tried to portay these companies as cheats. I'm sittin there thinking that I don't blame em.

Only 1 company president would talk to 60 Minutes. He was basically telling em he WANTS to stay in America but our government is driving busineses out. So yes, 2 billion a year (or whatever the amount was) is now going to Switzerland helping those areas grow when that $$ could be here if the taxes weren't so high.

And it's not like under the current laws the 2 billion could be spent in the US. That 2 billion was either to be taken to Switzerland or just gone. At least w/ our tax laws. <---- hope this paragraph made sense

Paying for the government is like paying the electric bill: I think it's too much money, but it is necessary if I want the services rendered. I can try to pressure the utility/government to reduce it, but I still have to pay for what I get. And personally, I'm thankful that I CAN pay, when so many have less.

We pretty much agree on the above. I'm reading Not For Sale at Any Price by Ross Perot. I'm re-reading it. It's one of the more simple reads on this kind of thing. Back in 1992 our debt was 4 Trillion. Perot made a pretty good case when he said something like "it would be one thing if we had the best roads, hospitals, schools & such to be 4 trillion in debt. It's a whole nother thing to have paid that much & all that stuff be crap." Paraphrasing there, but I remember that quote. Whatever ya think of Perot, that quote is very true. Now we're at 14 trillion & what do we have to show for it?

Oh, we disagree on one thing though. I don't want a lot of those services. Not from Uncle Sam anyway. I basically want a court system, a military, some research, some regulation.

Just curious, Danny: how does someone on welfare manage to live in a 'decent' house? At least in Ohio, the waiting list for housing assistance is years long, and few of the available apartments/houses are in 'decent' neighborhoods, because the 'decent' neighbors object - and they have clout with the local politicians, and get what they want.
Another thing: food stamps don't cover half the actual cost of food, and none for such luxuries as soap, toilet paper, toothpaste, etc. Anyone living off the government's 'largesse' is not exactly enjoying life, IMO.

ok, this one is my bad. When you said the decent house thing, I was like "I never said he lived in a decent HOUSE" but yes I did. So my bad. Let me clarify. I should have said decent PLACE. He lives in an apartment. I haven't personally seen it. He's said it's decent though. He lives near Lambau (sp??) Field in Green Bay. I've never been there, so I can't say for sure. Anyone who knows the area could determine if they thought that area was decent or not.

However, you can now get not only a "decent" house but a NIIIIIIICE house if you're on welfare. In Arizona near my aunt, some gated community, golf course and/or mountian view homes are now Section 8. My aunt & her non Section 8 neighbors are less than thrilled about that.

 

[DannyD]

Cheri, there actually is a black market for food stamps. I've seen people buy a bag of chips w/ $20 in food stamp coupons & get the cash back. Then they go buy whatever they want w/ the rest of the money.

I don't think everyone who's poor is lazy. Not even close. At the same time I don't think a guy who makes $20,000/year should get a $10,000 refund because he has 4 kids. He works 40 hours a week. He's not lazy. He doesn't deserve that kind of refund though IMO.

I don't blame the guy for taking the refund though. At the same time I can't then blame a corporation for taking the loopholes that are given to them.

Just because you know some of the facts about one person, [and you don't know all the facts] doesn't mean the whole group is the same, does it? You think everyone on food stamps [or even most of them] is a lazy person? Because your niece is a worthless bit of trash, everyone who collects food stamps is too?
Of course you'll deny it, but it's the only comment you ever make: one person you know fits the stereotype, so it must be true.
The belief that poor people are also lazy is pretty popular around here, but it isn't generally true - it's just easier to ignore the problems if you think they deserve it.

 

[cheri1122]

Cheri, there actually is a black market for food stamps. I've seen people buy a bag of chips w/ $20 in food stamp coupons & get the cash back. Then they go buy whatever they want w/ the rest of the money.
Cops have been known to do 'stings' to catch the perps who sell cigarettes and alcohol to underage kids [usually the small, neighborhood places], so here is an area where they ought to focus. Sure, they do it once in a blue moon, but it should be a pretty regular thing, IMO.
Fraud isn't a reason to eliminate anything except the fraud.

I don't think everyone who's poor is lazy. Not even close. At the same time I don't think a guy who makes $20,000/year should get a $10,000 refund because he has 4 kids. He works 40 hours a week. He's not lazy. He doesn't deserve that kind of refund though IMO.

A refund of 50% of annual income? I don't believe that - got proof? When I was a single parent, claiming the earned income credit, I never got a refund anywhere near that, and I barely made enough to pay the bills.

I don't blame the guy for taking the refund though. At the same time I can't then blame a corporation for taking the loopholes that are given to them.

The loopholes aren't 'given' to them - they pay huge amounts for accountants to be creative about eliminating their tax burden. [Don't even get me started on what they get for 'charitable donations, either] And the insult added to injury is that they continue to benefit from the services provided by taxes, just as if they were paying their share.
The tax system needs fixed, no question - but evading it isn't helping anyone except themselves. It's the whole selfish 'me, me, me!' mentality that bothers me, because it is not at all what made America great.

 

[DannyD]

From Cheri: A refund of 50% of annual income? I don't believe that - got proof? When I was a single parent, claiming the earned income credit, I never got a refund anywhere near that, and I barely made enough to pay the bills.

Do I have thier income taxes to show on here? Of course not. What I can tell ya is he's a guy making $10/hour, which comes out to $20,000/year.

The Earned income credit is helping people in ways that you wouldn't have gotten when you were raising your children.

Other cases I know of, all from people making in the $15-25k/year range. A couple got $6200 back. Not sure how many kids they have. A single mom I know makes $12/hour & got $5400 back. My best friend got several thousand back. His wife doesn't work. He has 2 kids at home. At least he has the decency to realize he's getting a great deal & knows he's boning my other best friend (the wealthy guy).

The single mom is someone my mom has helped out quite a bit. Somehow those 2 got talking about taxes & my mom said she was fortunate to get that much back. The response that rankled my mom was this lady saying "do you not think I'm ENTITLED to it!?!?"

She went on to list all the troubles she was having, how she worked 40 hours, etc. All of what she said is true. She works hard. She's a good person & she's trying her very hardest to make it. It still doesn't mean she should be entitled to a massive refund that's far more than what she paid.

So no I don't have proof to the point where I can post someone's taxes here on a message board. But these massive refunds are happening all over the place. You didn't get em. I realize that. But a lot of people are.

I don't want these people starving. I'm not blaming em for taking these refunds if it's available to em. All I'm saying is if I'm not going to blame a person for taking a mega refund when they barely paid in then I can't blame a corporation or a wealthy person for trying to get the best deal they can either.

 

[cheri1122]

I see what you're saying, Danny, but what I feel is that those working folks who got thousands back may use the money to buy a decent used car, or maintenance on their home, or pay for the kid's braces, or a whole list of things [not luxuries, either] that they were postponing, or just going without because their income didn't cover them. It's what I always did with mine, measly though it was. I spent it on necessities, which helped other American businesses.
The wealthy and the corporations need and deserve more money like I need and deserve a broken leg - but they can pay for whatever is required to get what they want [like laws, tax breaks, and all the accountants it takes to eliminate any need for them to pay anything].
Which wouldn't be so outrageous if they made any effort to give something back to the country and people that make it possible - but the ones that never do are beneath contempt.