"Yes, It's torture"...

[greg334]

OVM,
These people do not follow the same rules as we do and there is no fairness among them. They have a structure they follow, there is a hierarchy and there are follows and leaders but they are no more military than you or I am.

The biggest problem is that people don't understand the fanaticism involved. The leaders are not so fanatic as the followers. but it is akin to the Japanese up until 1946, there was a fall on the sword attitude among most of the population and nothing could change their minds. If you want to put it in perspective, study some of the battles in the pacific, watch letters from Iwo Jima and then multiply that by 100. That is the level I am talking about.

We didn't create these people or their cause, we help it along by being soft. As I said before, their culture doesn't allow the weak to survive, it eliminates the weak and we are the weak.

I question a lot of people who don't want to understand what our enemies are. I worry that they will get in my way defending my family by their needs to be fair. I feel that they have an agenda that needs to be fulfilled at the expense of our country.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Funny, I asked about the supposed L.A. terror plot, and not one response?

I've not kept up with that at this moment....


Joe....These guys at Gitmo are almost irrelevent now..they've been isolated for years...their contacts are either dead and plans change daily...they've been out of the loop for so long..they'd have little info to share...except for maybe contacts in the US if any....

 

[layoutshooter]

Sorry, I know nothing about that. What about the plot that was just stopped yesterday or the day before in NY? I know something about that one. That one did happen, as have many others that we are not aware of for most likely very good reason. In war, there are good reasons to protect the sorce of some kinds of intelligence. The lost of the sorce would be of greater damage to the overall effort than making things known would make some feel better. Just as Churchhill allowed Conventry to be bombed during WWII. War sucks. I truely wish that we had not allowed this one to take hold as we did but that took place 30 years ago and we are now stuck with it. How do we fight it is now the question. I know what I would do, what are you ideas? What are they based on? Are they tried and proven methods? How did you develope your ideas on this? Are they based on experience? On study? On feelings? On just news reports? It would be nteresting to know.

 

[copdsux]

I will trust my government, as per the US Constitution, to "protect and defend" me to the fullest extent, no matter which party is in power. It is a fact that, after 09/11, there were no more attacks on US soil. It is a fact, that we have still not been attacked, as of today, even though we have a new President. I seriously doubt that either President, as individuals, have much to do with my safety.

This is not a black or white world. There is a lot of grey. I refuse to get my shorts in a wad over which "color" is winning, at a particular moment. I would rather spend my life in the "pursuit of happiness" and let the experts do their jobs. If you want to spend your life looking under rocks, go ahead.

 

[layoutshooter]

You are correct that the president alone cannot "Protect or Defend" this Nation. The problem, in my opinion, is the attitude that this president and congress has.

I believe that the "experts" you are speaking of are not being paid attention too. I know for a fact that Carter did NOT listen to the "Experts" on Iran, the Shaw or the attack on our Embassy. Nor did his listen when he was first told to go in and rescue our hostages and then again, when he did try, after being told NOT to at that time with the method that he used.

I know for a fact that Bill Clinton did NOT listen to the "experts" and gutting our ability to monitor terror networks to stop attacks like 9/11 from happening. I know that because that WAS the program that I was working in when he cancelled it. He was one of the main reasons I quit my service.

Attitud is everything. When your elected officials don't believe what the "experts" are telling them you start to have problems. Whether they don't believe them because they think they are smarter than them, they don't believe or trust them or don't see the threat is not relevent. The result is the same. Dead Americans.

Party has little meaning in this although in the experinece during my career I did notice a major difference in the attitude towards my work between the Democrat and the Republicans. The Democrats TENDED to dismiss what they were told and tended to under estimate threats. They also had a mis-trust of our Agency and made little effort to work with us. The Republicans were generally more attuned to what we advised and tended to work with us more.

Those are general observations and things were fluid with all administrations I worked under. Example: The Reagan administration had a really good handle on the intell problem but yet still signed off on the INF treaty which made it easier for the Soviets to maintain thier ICBM systems and did not make Europe any safer, if fact, it made in less safe there. That treaty allowed the Soviets to target Europe with short launced SS25 ICBM's not covered under the INF treaty. Those missles were far more potent that the SS20 intermediate range missle that the treaty banned.

You see, I base my ideas on experience. I can see what is going on now, I have seen it before. The last time I seen things like this we had 9/11 as the result.

 

[LDB]

So much for teaching our children that 2 wrongs don't make a right....

There is a HUGE difference between teaching little Junior that breaking one of Bobby's toys in return for Bobby breaking his toy is wrong and this.

 

[Turtle]

"You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *Chicago* way! And that's how you get Capone. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I'm offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?"

Capone, terrorists, works either way.

 

[layoutshooter]

Works for me!! Let's see, Sean Connery, the Untouchables? Right?

 

[Turtle]

Yeah. It worked for Capone, and it worked at Gitmo. What's the big deal? Torture of terrorists isn't even torture, it's self defense.

 

[LDB]

Removing one fingernail per day during questioning until all the answers are given, followed by removing one toenail per day, one toe per day, one finger per day and if need be going even further if necessary to get the answers could qualify as torture. Waterboarding, which is a non-lethal method with no permanent effects like the removal of nails and appendages is not torture, it's just an intense experience.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

So much for teaching our children that 2 wrongs don't make a right....They torture Americans and we torture them...And then take the moral high road that we are superior...in the name of the greater good...

Maybe when we took Germany and found the ovens we should have just thrown the whole German population into the ovens and make things right.

There's one major difference between our "torture" and theirs... they walk away from ours.

Since they don't end up with psychological of physical problems, I don't call it torture. Since the "torturers" have to endure it themselves, comparing it to what was done to our soldiers is ludicrous.

You want to know what's torture? Listening to the audio of Pearl getting his head cut off with a rusty saw! Hearing his screams turn to gurgles, and then silence.

 

[layoutshooter]

OVM, they would be treated as heros and given new chances to kill us.

 

[Steady Eddie]

Do unto others as they do unto you.

Do unto others before they do unto you, is that what you meant?

 

[Steady Eddie]

I've not kept up with that at this moment....


Joe....These guys at Gitmo are almost irrelevent now..they've been isolated for years...their contacts are either dead and plans change daily...they've been out of the loop for so long..they'd have little info to share...except for maybe contacts in the US if any....

Are we not at war. Gitmo and it's guest are POW'S, and should be treated as such. Folks seem to think they have rights under our laws. POW is different. Closing Gitmo down is a waste of 80 million...but a small drop in the bucket compaired to the rest of the waste thats going on. Torture, if we have to why not.

Should we let them go just because they no nothing to help us? Hell no. Why? In time of war you do not let your POW's go back to join in the fight. You return them after you win the fight!

I can close Gitmo for $2,000.00....and still have enogh left over for a nice box of Cuban cigars.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Are we not at war. Gitmo and it's guest are POW'S, and should be treated as such. Folks seem to think they have rights under our laws. POW is different. Closing Gitmo down is a waste of 80 million...but a small drop in the bucket compaired to the rest of the waste thats going on. Torture, if we have to why not.

Should we let them go just because they no nothing to help us? Hell no. Why? In time of war you do not let your POW's go back to join in the fight. You return them after you win the fight!

I can close Gitmo for $2,000.00....and still have enogh left over for a nice box of Cuban cigars.

I never said they should be let go free....

$2,000? Is that the cost of throwing them in the ocean for shark food? *L*

 

[Steady Eddie]

Surely you don't refer to the debunked and discredited LA "terror Plot"?

Not sure if I understand your question....Are you saying that the LA plot was maded up? Oh oh I know...you think that it was a Bush thing to show how right he was. Your thoughts will be way out in left field for sure. You are funny!

 

[layoutshooter]

We are at war. These watchamacallits are Un-uniformed enemy combatants. Under the Geneva convention we can just shoot 'em and be done with it. Then, after we empty Gitmo we can use it to house gang memebers.

 

[mjolnir131]

We are at war. These watchamacallits are Un-uniformed enemy combatants. Under the Geneva convention we can just shoot 'em and be done with it. Then, after we empty Gitmo we can use it to house gang memebers.

I believe this is all covered under Rule 303.

 

[layoutshooter]

Might be, I forget a lot of that stuff. It has been 39 years since I had those clases.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

The Geneva Convention DOES NOT COVER ILLEGAL COMBATANTS. Yes, that's right. If you don't wear a uniform or identifying insignia and carry arms openly, you are considered an illegal combatant and the capturing power is in its rights to shoot you on the spot. This happened in WWII with German soldiers impersonating US MP's. Ike gave the orders to have them all shot.

The Geneva Conventions are not a body that could censure or approve of anything. The Conventions refer to a number of international agreements on "The Law of War" setting standards for many things but most often referred to for POW treatment standards.

The Geneva Convection rules can not be applied to terrorists. The rules only apply to combatants that represent nations. Also terrorist do not abide by any rules of combat, they give no quarter, they should be given none.

I actually miss the Soviets. They were such great bad guys. Clearly defined evil that all could understand. Now that the Soviets are gone the bad guys are often harder to spot.

If you will excuse the oxymorons, they were reasonable maniacs, sane nutcases. They were respectable opponents, they had soldiers, good ones, unlike the backward, cowardly inept murderers that attack us now. I do miss the Soviets.

On another note I bet if Osama's scumbags had hit the Kremlin instead of New York, Washington D.C. and Pennsylvania, that Mecca would have been a radioactive wasteland by the end of the day.