Women breaking barriers in Navy, not SEALs yet

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
AP

Elite Navy SEALs storm a walled compound in Pakistan and take out the world's most wanted terrorist.

Footnote: They were all men.

While America's last 10 years of war have propelled women into new and far more risky roles across the military, there are still some doors that are closed. Chief among those are the special operations forces.

But perhaps that door is inching open.

"As a philosophical thing, there shouldn't be anything that's closed off as a career," said Navy Secretary Ray Mabus. And while he is quick to note there is a ban on moving women into combat and infantry jobs, Mabus said more and more women are working with special operations forces in support roles. And he did not rule out the idea that a qualified woman could eventually become an elite commando.

Still, Mabus cautioned that it would take time. "We're going to have to take some careful, well-thought-out steps in that direction," he said.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates expressed a similar view late last year, telling North Carolina ROTC students that he believes women will eventually be allowed to serve in special operations jobs. At some point, he said, "there will be a careful step in that direction."

One of those steps is the Navy's recent decision to allow women to serve on submarines. Of the 18 women selected for the program, eight will report to their submarines in November to serve as supply corps officers. Others will report to subs next summer.

The first eight — all are newly commissioned ensigns — will be divided among four ballistic missile submarines, the USS Wyoming, USS Georgia, USS Maine and the USS Ohio. And there will be a senior female officer — likely a lieutenant — on each of the subs to serve as a mentor and work with the ensigns to help with the transition.

"We are making a concerted effort to not only look at retaining women, but at bringing more women into the Navy," said Lt. Cmdr. Jean Marie Sullivan, chief of the naval personnel's office of women's policy.

With the addition of those women to the subs, the only Navy jobs still closed to female officers are with the SEALs.

By announcing the subs and putting a senior female officer on board with the two ensigns, the Navy says it is working to ensure a smooth transition that will gradually put women on attack subs, and eventually on nuclear submarines. And, as more female officers merge into the ranks, they will pave the way for the eventual inclusion of enlisted women.

Currently, however, the cramped quarters on subs don't provide adequate berthing for enlisted women, and it would be costly to make the necessary modifications.

Overall, the Air Force has the highest percentage of women in its ranks, with a bit more than 19 percent. The Navy is close behind, with nearly 17 percent women, followed by the Army with 13 percent and the Marines with less than 7 percent.

On Friday, women made up almost 21 percent of the 2011 graduation class of sailors at the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, Md., and more than 17 percent of the Marines.

Across the services, just a handful of jobs are closed to women, and those are mainly combat, infantry, artillery, pararescue, tank and special operations forces.

The growth in the number of women in the military, and their increasing roles in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, may be tearing down slowly the remaining walls that bar them from serving in front line combat.

Earlier this year, a military advisory panel recommended that the final areas of discrimination be dismantled, bucking concerns that women lack the strength and stamina to fulfill those grueling jobs, or that the American public will balk at seeing large numbers of women coming home in body bags.

Already more than 255,000 women have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and nearly 150 have been killed in those wars.

And while women may not be SEALs, or members of the Army's prestigious Delta Force, they are increasingly serving with special operations teams in supporting jobs such as intelligence analysts, legal specialists, builders and administrative assistants.

So, while the SEALs who stormed Osama bin Laden's compound early this month were all men, women have been deploying to the warfront with Naval Special Warfare Command squadrons for several years. Since 2007, 10 to 15 women have deployed with each NSW squadron, and more than 400 female sailors serve with the Navy's special operations forces in supporting jobs.

That program temporarily assigns women to units that are close to the warfront, but it precludes them from doing combat missions. So far, said Sullivan, it has been very successful.

"One of the things we are seeing is that as women move up and get more and more responsibilities, our retention rates for junior officers and junior enlisted are going up as well," Mabus said
 

copdsux

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
March 21, 2008 (by SrA Justin Weaver) - While most fourth grade girls talk about being a ballerina, veterinarian, doctor or princess, Shawna Rochelle Kimbrell, knew she wanted to take to the skies.

Please take time to read this article and see what a determined woman can do, in today's Navy.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
This may sound sexist but the problem with women in combat are two fold, one is the men who work with them and the other is the problems related to the enemy -- any enemy. I won't mention other issues that impact readiness, standards and consistent performance.

As much as I would love to see equality in our world, this is one area that we need to think hard on what the impact to the women who serve may be. We can't expect a social reformation of men in our society to limit mens' thoughts and desires while at the same time expecting to act a certain way in a combat situation. On the other hand the enemy, say a Muslim group who captures a woman soldier or sailor will not abide by any treaty or convention and do things to her that they would not do to a man.

If we are to expect to social engineer our military to fit our desires, then we need to be prepared for the worst that can happen.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
This is a BBC article. I wonder, just how many women serve with the SAS right now?

There will be no equality in the US Military until women are required to meet the same physical standards as men are.

Yeah, I know, they don't have the same upper body strength. Fine, can't cut it? Stay home. Combat is not for the weak. Same number and type of push ups. Same amount on the horizontal ladders. Same EXACT training, NO special ANYTHING just because they are women. We are either going to have REAL equality or not. Can't have it both ways.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
This is a BBC article. I wonder, just how many women serve with the SAS right now?

There will be no equality in the US Military until women are required to meet the same physical standards as men are.

Yeah, I know, they don't have the same upper body strength. Fine, can't cut it? Stay home. Combat is not for the weak. Same number and type of push ups. Same amount on the horizontal ladders. Same EXACT training, NO special ANYTHING just because they are women. We are either going to have REAL equality or not. Can't have it both ways.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Modern warfare has and is rapidly changing from the days of yore when bigger and badder was needed to beat up on big and bad with some Medieval ax. Any 98 pound weakling can push a button and fire a trigger. Its to the point me that the physical requirements for men don't even need to be met by men. And in the case of fighter pilots, many of the women fit the physical requirements better than men do.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Modern warfare has and is rapidly changing from the days of yore when bigger and badder was needed to beat up on big and bad with some Medieval ax. Any 98 pound weakling can push a button and fire a trigger. Its to the point me that the physical requirements for men don't even need to be met by men. And in the case of fighter pilots, many of the women fit the physical requirements better than men do.


Well, Turtle, I have to disagree with most of what you said, other than part about the Medieval ax.

Hand to hand is still hand to hand. Our troops often carry 75-100lbs of gear when going on patrol. The "elite" forces are NOT push button, they are mostly in your face stuff. They still are often required to carry wounded comrades on their backs, for long distances.

This was about women being allowed in the SEALS. They have EXTREME conditioning. Either the women can meet ALL the exact same requirements as the men or stay home.

I have a sneaky feeling that my son and nephew would get a really good laugh at your lack of understanding of modern combat. I know I did.
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
There are SO many points to be taken into consideration .....

yes, women MUST train exactly as the men do - no quarter given.

yes, the post about if they were captured would be horrific.

yes, women have different needs to men.

I honestly think the time will come when we will see women serving in all branches of the military exactly the same as the men.

After seeing a episode of Cops recently, where this TINY Policewoman tried tackling this guy and lost her tazer to him - the powers that be MUST train women as hard as the men.


As always IMO :)
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I am man enough to admit, I have met many, many women that could whip my butt in a match. The problem is I enjoyed it. :rolleyes:
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"yes, women have different needs to men."

Yep, they do, BUT, there will be NO special accommodations will be made for those needs. In combat the needs that must be met are mainly mission related. Transportation in and/or out. Ammo, equipment needed to the job and basic medical supplies. That's it.
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
"yes, women have different needs to men."

Yep, they do, BUT, there will be NO special accommodations will be made for those needs. In combat the needs that must be met are mainly mission related. Transportation in and/or out. Ammo, equipment needed to the job and basic medical supplies. That's it.


and I totally agree with you ..... what I meant by that without going into details is that women have SPECIAL needs that men don't have to go through :rolleyes:

I do not doubt that there are women who will prove themselves mentally and physically strong enough for these roles and only those will pass through to completion.


As always IMO :)
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
and I totally agree with you ..... what I meant by that without going into details is that women have SPECIAL needs that men don't have to go through :rolleyes:

I do not doubt that there are women who will prove themselves mentally and physically strong enough for these roles and only those will pass through to completion.


As always IMO :)

There may be a few, not many though. There is the "mental" part too. They MUST meet the same qualifications for that as well.
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
This is a BBC article. I wonder, just how many women serve with the SAS right now?

.



As far as I can see the only part of the Special Forces that take women is the SRR (2 SRR members were "captured and released" recently by the Libyan rebels)


Special Reconnaissance Regiment - Selection and Training
Following a grueling selection process, SRR operatives are trained in the arts of surveillance, photography, close quarters battle (CQB) and advanced driving. (see 14 Company section for more details of such training). With the shift of emphasis to operations in the Middle-East, SRR operatives are likely to become proficient in Mid-Eastern languages such as Arabic and Farsi.

The SRR recruits from all 3 UK arms of the military. It is the only UKSF regiment to include women in operational roles
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
As far as I can see the only part of the Special Forces that take women is the SRR (2 SRR members were "captured and released" recently by the Libyan rebels)


Special Reconnaissance Regiment - Selection and Training
Following a grueling selection process, SRR operatives are trained in the arts of surveillance, photography, close quarters battle (CQB) and advanced driving. (see 14 Company section for more details of such training). With the shift of emphasis to operations in the Middle-East, SRR operatives are likely to become proficient in Mid-Eastern languages such as Arabic and Farsi.

The SRR recruits from all 3 UK arms of the military. It is the only UKSF regiment to include women in operational roles

I no nothing about the SRR. I know a little about the S.A.S. , Special Air Service. More like the SEALS, more and longer training I believe.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I have a sneaky feeling that my son and nephew would get a really good laugh at your lack of understanding of modern combat. I know I did.
Oh, that's OK. I have a sneaky suspicion that the 112 pound daughter of a friend of mine would get the last laugh at all three of ya.
 
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