Will the D-12 defend this?

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Intoxicated man tells cop to shut up, cop clubs him then pepper sprays him.
Video shows beating by St. Louis police officer

A matter of debate of whether to step in and physically defend the victim or whether to keep taping. You save one victim from a beating one way (getting beaten and arrested yourself in the process) but possible save more and hopefully get an abusive cop fired the other... Decisions, decisions...
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
I don't really see a "BEATING" taking place here. Cop was not holding rasp with both hands and trying to either swing the wood for 315 yards or hit the fastball out of Wrigley Field.

Cop had rasp in one hand and was hitting suspect where they are taught to hit suspects, mainly in the back of the legs or lower torso until suspects complies with demands. Cop wasn't even swinging that hard either. Hell, Cop hardly was exerting any force at all in those swings.

Why did Cop have to pull rasp out in the first place?

"The guy was plainly drunk,"

"Inebriated."

........the man's friends got him outside but he continued to cause problems, struggling with his friends. That's when Ries intervened.

.....the man who was beaten had been grabbing the officer's legs.

If you watch the video, you can clearly see Cop jerking his legs away from the suspect a couple of times. Of course, dingbat who took this video did not keep the camera aimed down to show the suspect grabbing Cops legs.

You know what makes this "sensational"???? The narration of the video, that's all. You have a dingbat going "oh my gosh - oh my gosh" along with her guy friend saying "keep the camera down" while videoing Cop giving a drunken suspect a couple of love taps to get him under control.

Cop did NOTHING wrong, period.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Ah, I was wondering how long it would take the State-worshipers to show up.

I don't really see a "BEATING" taking place here. Cop was not holding rasp with both hands and trying to either swing the wood for 315 yards or hit the fastball out of Wrigley Field.
So anything less doesn't constitute a beating? So you wouldn't mind someone doing it to you, if, after all, it isn't a beating?

Cop had rasp
Actually, it's called an Asp.

in one hand and was hitting suspect where they are taught to hit suspects, mainly in the back of the legs or lower torso until suspects complies with demands. Cop wasn't even swinging that hard either. Hell, Cop hardly was exerting any force at all in those swings.
And so the bloody mouth came from where? And you can't tell where he's swinging. You're engaging in supposition.

Why did Cop have to pull rasp out in the first place?
A couple theories spring to mind. The more likely one is--being that it happened immediately after the victim told him to "shut up"--is that the cop thought something like, "How dare a mere mundane insult my sanctified person? An @$$-kicking will teach this citizen puke a lesson."

Now, all that's rather amplified. It probably took about a half-second and was more visceral than cerebral.

The other possibility that comes to mind is that prior to the video start, the cop was detaining him, or going to search him, or arrest him, or something like that, and told him to get out of the car, and he didn't want to. He resisted a bit, and maybe the cop gave him a second chance, to which he responded "Shut up." The cop figures he's given him all the opportunity to which he's entitled, and starts to extract him from the car, at which point, things go awry.

Now, that could certainly be the case, but we don't know it. Not only do we not have the preceding few seconds of video, we also don't have any report written by the cop.

When cops go to a domestic disturbance, and there's been some fisticuffs, and the husband and wife each look at each other and say, "He/She started it," what are the cops going to do? They're going to look for physical evidence. She's got some marks on her neck where it appears he grabbed her, and there are no marks on him. Guess which one's going to be a guest of the city or county that night.

That's kind of what we have here; we have no report filed by the cop, which he was required to do, and the only other evidence we have is the video. And now that this has blown up in his face, no report he files at this point will have any credibility. So the only thing we know is that the assault victim told the cop to shut up, and the cop appears to administer some street justice.


If you watch the video, you can clearly see Cop jerking his legs away from the suspect a couple of times. Of course, dingbat who took this video did not keep the camera aimed down to show the suspect grabbing Cops legs.
That's not clear at all, though it is clear that the guy shooting the video was a dingleberry.

If the cop was reacting to his ankles being grabbed, it's reminiscent of another police brutality feature that's become so common. A cop issues some command (that probably exceeds his authority), and the citizen doesn't comply in .0674 of a second, so the cop pulls his Portable Electro Shock Torture device and zaps him, all the while yelling, "QUIT RESISTING! COMPLY WITH MY COMMANDS AND PUT YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR BACK!" Which the victim can't do because the electricity is coursing through his body, so the cop feels justified to zap him some more, which happened in Baltimore, where a decorated veteran recently back from the sandbox was murdered by the cops in just such a manner.

But in this case, we know that the victim told the cop to shut up, and it appears that the cop, offended, assaulted him. Perhaps in shock and fear, or maybe pain, or maybe cowering, he grabs the cop's ankles.

Cop did NOTHING wrong, period.
Point of law: You can't start a fight and then claim self-defense later. All the evidence that we have--again, who's fault is that?--could indicate that the cop was offended at being insulted and reacted violently. He can't now claim, "Well, the guy was grabbing my ankles, so I did what I had to do."

It reminds me of another video from years ago on which a guy tells his buddies to video him flipping off a cop. So the camera rolls (I think this was before cell phones with cameras were common), and the prankster gives the cop a very dramatic double bird. The cop pulls his stick and beats the crap out of the kid. I think that was a phony, just for laughs, maybe not even a real cop. But the point is, a cop has to have a thick skin. He doesn't get to react emotionally when he's insulted or disrespected. First, society, choosing to have cops, hires him, so he belongs to us, not the other way around. It's that whole you-public-servant, me-public thing. Second, we give him a gun and other tools of violence, so he's expected to be able to stay calm. I can call him a $#!+ for brains, or a dumb @$$, and though he may disapprove and even glare at me, he has no other recourse. Same in this instance. If he doesn't like being told to shut up, too d*** bad. If he can't take that, in the words of Patrick Swayze, there's always barber college.

When I was a guard in Section 8 housing complexes, we made sure the people we hired had thick skins. They were questioned to make sure they did, and so they understood that they had to control themselves even in the face of less-than-physical abuse. We were interviewing a black guy, and I asked him straight out, "What would you do if someone called you a (N-word)?" We had to be sure he wouldn't shoot someone. Cops, having more power, have to be held to an even higher standard.


You know what makes this "sensational"???? The narration of the video, that's all. You have a dingbat going "oh my gosh - oh my gosh" along with her guy friend saying "keep the camera down" while videoing Cop giving a drunken suspect a couple of love taps to get him under control.
While the action happened, I found myself wondering what kind of report he was going to write. "Subject charged me in an aggressive manner and I had to defend myself." Ooops, guess you didn't see the video camera.

You know what's dramatic? That the citizens with the camera felt they needed to hide the camera so the cop wouldn't see it and turn his rage on them.
 
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greg334

Veteran Expediter
I kind of agree with you on this to point, but the problem I am having is the bases for the argument that the cop was wrong and the people who were recording it were actually seeing the entire picture of the event.

The station owner, who saw everything was interviewed and said that the cop was right in trying to get this guy off him and I tend to agree. If you ever have been grabbed by your ankles, it can be a bit of a problem with balancing.

Part of this culture of recording events seems to be more of "lets get our fifteen minutes of fame" than to do the right thing. A lot is left out when people "fear" the cops for their phone - a little bit too much there if you ask me.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Part of this culture of recording events seems to be more of "lets get our fifteen minutes of fame" than to do the right thing. A lot is left out when people "fear" the cops for their phone - a little bit too much there if you ask me.
There are many, many examples of rampaging cops intimidating people into surrendering their camera equipment and deleting their photos. Here's actually a mild example: Photography Is Not A Crime: Coral Gables Police Delete Ladies Images

And then there are states in which the state claims (falsely) that, while they may video us in public, it's against the law for us to video them. People have been charged. While the people in the car may have played up that fear a little, it can't be discounted. Cops can be violent people. Remember the recent story in which the cop, unhappy with the service at a fast food joint, pulled his pistol and pointed it in the drive through window at the employees?
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
And so the bloody mouth came from where? And you can't tell where he's swinging. You're engaging in supposition.

Bloody mouth probably came from hitting the pavement when Cop had to forcefully remove suspect from car. I can clearly tell where he's swinging. Suspect has head down between Cops feet grabbing/hanging onto Cops legs/feet as witnesses state. The way the Cop is standing, hunched over like that, it's very clear to me he's not swinging at his own 2 feet, thus leading to the conclusion that his path of swing is clearly directed at the lower portions of the suspects body.

Why did Cop have to pull rasp out in the first place?

A couple theories spring to mind. The more likely one is--being that it happened immediately after the victim told him to "shut up"--

????

Do what???

Video clearly shows Asp came out AFTER suspect was forcefully removed from car and on the ground grabbing at Cops feet.

watch the video, you can clearly see Cop jerking his legs away from the suspect a couple of times.

That's not clear at all,

Again, watch the video. During the first half of the video, I am seeing a Cop hunched over trying to keep his balance and lightly swinging his Asp at a suspect that has ahold of his legs and feet.

Camera then pans down to dash, when camera comes back up, you seek Cop JERKING his legs away from suspect gaining more control of his posture, and then pulling Pepper Spray out to finally subdue suspect.

The rest of your diatribe, anti-law enforcement blah blah blah just aint worth responding too.

Again, Cop did NOTHING wrong, period.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I was speaking to this specific case and the issue with comments about hiding the phone.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Bloody mouth probably came from hitting the pavement
Supposition.
when Cop had to forcefully remove suspect from car.
Or when cop chose to assault the victim. No telling at this point.

I can clearly tell where he's swinging. Suspect has head down between Cops feet grabbing/hanging onto Cops legs/feet as witnesses state.
The victim's head is visible only briefly on the video, and and it isn't clear what happened on the ground. The only thing that's clear on the video is the cop grabbed a guy and struck him repeatedly. We could know more, but again, the cop didn't do his job and write anything up. Wonder why that is... So again, the only evidence we have...


Video clearly shows Asp came out AFTER suspect was forcefully removed from car and on the ground grabbing at Cops feet.
More supposition. The video doesn't show anybody grabbing anyone's feet.


Again, watch the video. During the first half of the video, I am seeing a Cop hunched over trying to keep his balance and lightly swinging his Asp at a suspect that has ahold of his legs and feet.
You're seeing what you choose to see, not what's there. You read the amplified Bible, don't you?

The rest of your diatribe, anti-law enforcement blah blah blah just aint worth responding too.
It's anti-JBT, certainly not anti-peace officer.

Again, Cop did NOTHING wrong, period.

Please, please tell me you don't vote.
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
Again, watch the video. During the first half of the video, I am seeing a Cop hunched over trying to keep his balance and lightly swinging his Asp at a suspect that has ahold of his legs and feet.

You're seeing what you choose to see, not what's there.

????????????

Again..........

WATCH THE VIDEO!!!
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
I'm done discussing this with you...............

Heading out to my garage to show this video to the tires on my truck. Will get a better conversation with one of them going.............
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
I'm done discussing this with you...............

Heading out to my garage to show this video to the tires on my truck. Will get a better conversation with one of them going.............
I'm sure they're more likely to take what you say at face value and believe it uncritically. The things you say are on the video aren't there; you're assuming them from what you can see.
 

pjjjjj

Veteran Expediter
Perhaps I am missing something but I'm confused as to why people are expecting a police report to have been filled out when the 'officer' was not on duty as an officer, and was providing security on behalf of the service station itself, which has no problem with their security officer's handling of the problem. Police were called after the drunken bum was handcuffed and taken into the 'substation'. They're the ones that should have written a report.
To me, the question is whether a police officer is allowed to provide security work on the side, and whether a security person is allowed to use pepper spray and batons on disturbers when they won't stop disturbing. As far as I know, bouncers are able to use force, and security personnel seem to be equipped to use force if someone won't respect the rules of the property on which they are on. Apparently even the drunken bum's friends didn't think the security officer was out of line.

As usual, I continue to be confused around here by Americans who demand things to be a certain way, and yet don't want to give anyone the authority to allow things to be that way. You'd complain if nothing is done about people who think they can act however they want on whoever's property they want, and you also complain when someone takes action and does something about it.
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
Who and/or what is/are the D-12?

Funny you should ask...to borrow a line the D-12 use when they get the chance to pounce in their best control freak blather, as if you have no right to ask this question, "Read back through the forum archives. This question has been asked and answered". Sound familiar?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Funny you should ask...to borrow a line the D-12 use when they get the chance to pounce in their best control freak blather, as if you have no right to ask this question, "Read back through the forum archives. This question has been asked and answered". Sound familiar?

Nope, not to me!! :p Now make nice!!
 
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