why
- Thread starter JohnWC
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Commas and periods do, but exclamation and question marks depend on the contextual logic.
Punctuating Quotations with Exclamation Points and Semicolons For Dummies
If the entire sentence is an exclamation, but the quoted words aren’t, put the exclamation point outsidethe quotation marks.
If the quoted words are an exclamation, put the exclamation point inside the quotation marks.
Gene said, “I can’t believe it’s not butter!” (The quoted words are an exclamation but the entire sentence is not.)
I simply cannot believe that Gene actually said, “No, thank you”! (Now the entire sentence is an exclamation but the quoted words are not.)
So...
- Periods and commas: inside the quotation marks
- Colons and semicolons: outside the quotation marks
- Question marks and exclamation points: (a) inside if the question or exclamation is part of the quotation, and (b) outside if the question or exclamation is not part of the quotation
Things must REALLY be slow out there right now.
AMonger
Veteran Expediter
American English, despite a recent push for it, doesn't use such contextual logic. Never has. That's why, when an American visits the jolly ol', Brits have been known to ask, "What brings you here? Coming to learn the language?"
The writer, apparently a dummy, herself, is one behind the push to make 'Muricans write like Brits.
On this side of the pond, all of these: !., go inside the quotation marks, without exception.
The writer, apparently a dummy, herself, is one behind the push to make 'Muricans write like Brits.
On this side of the pond, all of these: !., go inside the quotation marks, without exception.
Geeezzz... Maybe it's time to just "agree to disagree"!
On EO? FDLOL
Maverick
Seasoned Expediter
One exception exercised for the OP and consequent comments. Had a female show up at the Love's in TN. She has the hospital stay wrist band still on her arm. (nice touch)
However, in her other hand is a bucket with windshield cleaning supplies. She was offering to clean all the glass on the ST for a contribution.
Wanna work for it? OK...but I'm not inclined to give away to beggars.
However, in her other hand is a bucket with windshield cleaning supplies. She was offering to clean all the glass on the ST for a contribution.
Wanna work for it? OK...but I'm not inclined to give away to beggars.
Link, please.
AMonger
Veteran Expediter
Sorry, my elementary and high school educations weren't online. But that doesn't stop me from knowing or telling the difference between than & then: lose & loose: a & an; etc. and ect.; or how to punctuate around quotation marks. My English teachers from this side of the pond were very emphatic about punctuation ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS WITHOUT EXCEPTION going inside the quotation marks.
When I get home, I'll try and remember to look it up in my copy of Copy Editing and Proof Reading for Dummies.
AMonger
Veteran Expediter
No, you have the instruction of all my English teachers and every English teacher I've ever heard of, from this side of the pond, anyway. I think it was the Copy Editing book that detailed how this issue is handled differently in British English than here, but I'm not sure. I'll look it up when I get home.
This isn't the only difference; the Brits use the Oxford comma correctly, while we don't.
I seriously doubt that every grammar website contradicts me, or even a preponderance of them. The way I'm saying has been the way it's been done in this side of the pond since English was standardized here.
It's kind of like taxonomy. Taxonomy causes bitter disputes. I've always loved snakes. And the timber rattlesnake and canebrake rattlesnake were always, until recently, considered separate species. Then at some point, herpetologists decided there wasn't enough difference between them to consider them separate, and I don't know if somebody just picks up a megaphone, clears his throat, and says, "YOUR ATTENTION, PLEASE...FROM NOW ON..." or what.
Or one day, Pluto's a planet and then it's not.
But I don't do groupthink very well, and if linguists want to have us all use punctuation around quotation marks differently now, screw 'em.
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I'm not really sure why you keep mentioning this side of the pond, as we've already established the difference between American grammatical syntax and the rest of the English speaking world. Nevertheless, I grew up and went to school on the same side of the pond as you, and had high grades in English and literature.
The two different types of grammar punctuation are British Style (also known as Logical Notation), and the American Style, used almost exclusively in the US but also somewhat in Canada. The British Style is largely governed by Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage, whereas American Style is largely governed by the Chicago Manual of Style and the New York Public Library Writer's Guide to Style and Usage (Harper Collins). Most journalists abide by the AP Stylebook and the MLA (Modern Language Association) which both use American Style in most instances but not all.
The only major difference between British Style and American Style are the placements of the commas and periods - American Style places commas and periods inside the quotation marks, British Style places them outside the quotation marks.
Colons, semicolons, question marks and exclamation marks are handled exactly the same way in both styles, with colons and semicolons (as well as asterisks and dashes) always being placed outside the quotation marks, and exclamation and question marks being placed logically (whether the mark itself is part of the quote, or whether it applies to the entire sentence).
There are, however, several American style guides which are specific to certain specialties, like legal writing, linguistics, and most technical writing, which prefer the British Style. I know this because I've written published works that dealt with such specialties and had to become intimate with all of the above mentioned style guides.
Oxford Comma (serial comma) usage is all over the place, both here and in the UK. In the US, the serial comma is standard usage in non-journalistic writing that follows the Chicago Manual of Style. Journalists, however, use the AP Stylebook which, while not outright prohibiting it, strongly suggests against its usage. In the UK it is standard usage to leave it out, despite Fowler's Modern English Usage recommending using it. The Oxford University Press sure uses it, though. So does Harvard. They're about the only ones who do religiously, and it's why the serial comma is often referred to as the Oxford or Harvard Comma.
Which way is correct is clearly up for debate, as there is no clear authority of accepted usage to make either correct or incorrect, unless you are writing in the journalistic confines of the AP Stylebook, or the OUP, or at Harvard. It is, however, universally recommended to use the serial comma to prevent lyrical or musical prosody in the text (a rhythm, stress or intonation of speech which relates an emotional state, sarcasm, focus or emphasis) unless such prosody is what you are after. The use of a serial comma to prevent prosody breaks up the individual words and reduces ambiguity or confusion in some cases. So the general consensus on the serial comma is that there is no consensus. If you want to use it, use it. If you don't, then don't.
Here's an article written by an American English teacher who fervently deducts one point for every period or comma that's in the British Style, outside of a quotation mark. It'll really chap your cushions.
In a nutshell, this page from Purdue University gives an excellent overview of the general rules of when and where to use quotation marks in American Style English. The rules coincide with the accepted style guides of American English mentioned above.
The two different types of grammar punctuation are British Style (also known as Logical Notation), and the American Style, used almost exclusively in the US but also somewhat in Canada. The British Style is largely governed by Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage, whereas American Style is largely governed by the Chicago Manual of Style and the New York Public Library Writer's Guide to Style and Usage (Harper Collins). Most journalists abide by the AP Stylebook and the MLA (Modern Language Association) which both use American Style in most instances but not all.
The only major difference between British Style and American Style are the placements of the commas and periods - American Style places commas and periods inside the quotation marks, British Style places them outside the quotation marks.
Colons, semicolons, question marks and exclamation marks are handled exactly the same way in both styles, with colons and semicolons (as well as asterisks and dashes) always being placed outside the quotation marks, and exclamation and question marks being placed logically (whether the mark itself is part of the quote, or whether it applies to the entire sentence).
There are, however, several American style guides which are specific to certain specialties, like legal writing, linguistics, and most technical writing, which prefer the British Style. I know this because I've written published works that dealt with such specialties and had to become intimate with all of the above mentioned style guides.
Oxford Comma (serial comma) usage is all over the place, both here and in the UK. In the US, the serial comma is standard usage in non-journalistic writing that follows the Chicago Manual of Style. Journalists, however, use the AP Stylebook which, while not outright prohibiting it, strongly suggests against its usage. In the UK it is standard usage to leave it out, despite Fowler's Modern English Usage recommending using it. The Oxford University Press sure uses it, though. So does Harvard. They're about the only ones who do religiously, and it's why the serial comma is often referred to as the Oxford or Harvard Comma.
Which way is correct is clearly up for debate, as there is no clear authority of accepted usage to make either correct or incorrect, unless you are writing in the journalistic confines of the AP Stylebook, or the OUP, or at Harvard. It is, however, universally recommended to use the serial comma to prevent lyrical or musical prosody in the text (a rhythm, stress or intonation of speech which relates an emotional state, sarcasm, focus or emphasis) unless such prosody is what you are after. The use of a serial comma to prevent prosody breaks up the individual words and reduces ambiguity or confusion in some cases. So the general consensus on the serial comma is that there is no consensus. If you want to use it, use it. If you don't, then don't.
Here's an article written by an American English teacher who fervently deducts one point for every period or comma that's in the British Style, outside of a quotation mark. It'll really chap your cushions.
I may very well have misspoke in saying every Web site that deals with the grammar of American English contradicts what you are saying. I'll concede that point. "Every Web site" is a little on the absolute side. However, I have yet to come across a single one that agrees with you, and it's not for lack of trying. So, please consider my remarks amended within that context.
In a nutshell, this page from Purdue University gives an excellent overview of the general rules of when and where to use quotation marks in American Style English. The rules coincide with the accepted style guides of American English mentioned above.
AMonger
Veteran Expediter
Hmmm...no option to quote text in Tapatalk HD...interesting.
I don't know why you thought that would chap my cushions. The writer and I largely agree. Forex:
Pitchfork is an outlier in this regard. That is, the vast majority of the legion of logical punctuators are not consciously rejecting illogical American style, or consciously imitating the British. Rather, they follow their intuition because they don't know the American rules. They don't know the rules because they don't read enough. Don't read enough edited prose, that is; they read plenty of Facebook posts and IMs that make these same sorts of mistakes.
IOW, they're (rhymes with trucking) stupid slackers whose idea of literature is Reddit or 4Chan, who can't tell the difference between lose/loose, a/an, then/than, etc., literally first grade stuff. Really, didn't you know the difference between those in first grade? But the idiots who put punctuation outside of the quotation marks don't.
The Oxford comma thing was one of those deals like my taxonomy example or de-planetizing Pluto (and, now, like punctuation outside of quotation marks). Everybody knew the right way a few decades ago; our grandparents knew the Oxford comma belongs where it does and that punctuation always goes inside quotation marks.
But today, we're smart.
I don't know why you thought that would chap my cushions. The writer and I largely agree. Forex:
Pitchfork is an outlier in this regard. That is, the vast majority of the legion of logical punctuators are not consciously rejecting illogical American style, or consciously imitating the British. Rather, they follow their intuition because they don't know the American rules. They don't know the rules because they don't read enough. Don't read enough edited prose, that is; they read plenty of Facebook posts and IMs that make these same sorts of mistakes.
IOW, they're (rhymes with trucking) stupid slackers whose idea of literature is Reddit or 4Chan, who can't tell the difference between lose/loose, a/an, then/than, etc., literally first grade stuff. Really, didn't you know the difference between those in first grade? But the idiots who put punctuation outside of the quotation marks don't.
The Oxford comma thing was one of those deals like my taxonomy example or de-planetizing Pluto (and, now, like punctuation outside of quotation marks). Everybody knew the right way a few decades ago; our grandparents knew the Oxford comma belongs where it does and that punctuation always goes inside quotation marks.
But today, we're smart.
I wonder if you can sell tickets to this. Maybe get that guy with the wild hair to be the "colorman."
"It's the Battle of the Grammar Nazis! No holds barred, iron cage match! Keep the children away, we wouldn't want to warp their minds. Beer served in unimaginable quantities, come one come all!"
"It's the Battle of the Grammar Nazis! No holds barred, iron cage match! Keep the children away, we wouldn't want to warp their minds. Beer served in unimaginable quantities, come one come all!"
It's a civil discussion. Those who do not understand it, well....
I know the rules. Absolutely. But like I said in an earlier discussion, I largely don't care. In formal and some specialized writing I'll follow the rules to the letter, but in an informal setting like this, I'll express myself in any way the Constitution allows, including in ways that chap people's grammar cushions.
I know the rules. Absolutely. But like I said in an earlier discussion, I largely don't care. In formal and some specialized writing I'll follow the rules to the letter, but in an informal setting like this, I'll express myself in any way the Constitution allows, including in ways that chap people's grammar cushions.