When is a D is better than a C

[ATeam]

One important item which nobody has brought up is that a C unit will get offered a lot of B Loads at B rates, wheras a D will always get or should always get C rates even though they might get offered a B load.

That is interesting information, but when considering whether to invest in a C or D truck, it is not something to assign heavy weight to (My opinion based on our numbers).

We have driven both CR, D and DR trucks, and have seen no difference in the number of so-called B loads that are offered, let alone at what rate (B or C or D).

As a practical matter, it does not matter what they call the load (B, C, D). What matters is how much the load pays. For us, low paying B loads are treated the same as low paying C or D loads. They are delcined.

In over 225 loads hauled in our CR unit, since June, 2006, only seven have been officially designated and priced as surface expedite B loads. Five of them were longer "team" runs. Two were short runs. Average pay per mile for these seven B loads was $1.97 (includes deadhead + loaded miles). Total miles for these seven runs was 4,597 (includes deadhead + loaded).

Given these numbers, I'd love to see more surface expedite B loads offered to our CR truck. As with other types of loads, we can decline the unprofitable ones and accept the profitable.

In fact, we have done exactly that. From June, 2006, to today, we have been offered 19 B loads and accepted 9. In other words, our B load acceptance rate is just under 50%. In about 19 months, 19 B load offers have been received, or an average of 1 B load offer per month.

That's what I mean by not assigning much weight to the fact that B loads are offered to C trucks. They are offered to D trucks too, and sometimes they pay as good or better than C or D freight. Also, B loads are not offered to straight trucks often enough to be important in a C vs. D analysis.

That is true, to the extent that our numbers are an indicator. Numbers vary from contractor to contractor. Others may have numbers that make a different case.

 

[greg334]

As a practical matter, it does not matter what they call the load (B, C, D). What matters is how much the load pays. For us, low paying B loads are treated the same as low paying C or D loads. They are delcined.

Yea yea yea Phil..... your quoted statement above says it all.

 

[rodeehos]

This is my first reply on EO, but I'm not a newbie to the business. I've been in the expediting business for 3yrs. Started out driving and now manage a small fleet. Over the past year i have partnered up with most of the big boys in the business. The thing that is a little different when dealing with local freight forwarder's and the "big boys" is that when the local's call for a load, it don't matter if is 2 skids or 12 skids, if it needs a dock high truck, it pays the same per mile rate. Now, if one of the "big boys" offer a load and they say it calls for a 12' dock hi truck, it usually means that is pays about $.20-$.30 less per mile. Now I could understand the reduction in rate if were a typical 12'-14' cube non-dock hi truck. How many 12'-14' dock hi trucks are there on the road? I've seen a few FDCC 16' dock hi trucks, but the majority of the true expedite trucks on the road are least 20' in length. To me if the load calls for a dock hi straight truck, then it should pay the same whether it takes up 4' or 24'. Most companies don't want you to combine loads with another companies load, but if they want an exclusive truck then they should pay exclusive rates.

 

[TeamCaffee]

Phil once again you are not making it clear you have always run White Glove as a driver and now as a owner T-Val C unit.

These people are looking at purchasing a truck so they are going to go into Express which is nothing like White Glove. To get the most out of Express as a new Owner Operator a D truck will be offered the most loads unless you want to start out in a E unit. We as a D unit are offered B loads we can take them or turn them down and they do not count against us. About half pay well enough to take them which we do. What we have ran into a few times is the customer requested a B unit as a D unit cannot get into their facility. When this happens we are very glad we have a pallet jack and a lift gate which we are then paid to actually unload the freight.

 

[Moot]

When is a D better than a C? If this is a riddle then I have to say a D is better than a C except when it is a B.

Otherwise I'm with Turtle on this one: "If you're not a leg man or a butt man or something, then I'd say that pretty much always a D is gonna be preferred to a C."

 

[ATeam]

Phil once again you are not making it clear you have always run White Glove as a driver and now as a owner T-Val C unit.

In a previous post in this thread, you said, "No way would we ever run anything but a D truck in Express."

I agree. We would do the same if we were running a dry-box surface expdite truck.

Regarding the "once again" comment, very few members disclose their truck type and history with their posts, no matter how relevant or irrelevant that information may be.

Kindly note that in discussing the B loads we have received, I stated that they were all surface expedite B loads. Our WG reefer status has nothing to do with those offers.

In my post, I was speaking specifically to RichM's claim (quoted for clarity) that B loads are offered to C trucks in ways different than D trucks. I do not find that to be true in our 4+ years on the road in CR, DR and D trucks.

The surface expedite B loads I discussed have nothing to do with us being White Glove or reefer equipped. Thus, there was no need to state our WG history and current truck type. The only status responsible for us receiving the 19 B load offers I mentioned is "Happen to be handy at the time."

To further explore the B load to C and D trucks question, it would be interesting to hear from other FedEx Custom Critical drivers about their history. Whatever your WG or Surface Expedite status may be, and whatever type of truck you drive, your B load offer history can be easily accessed on the Extranet.

Log on to the Extranet. Navigate to Business Records. Navigate to Vehicle Stats. Set the date range from Jan 1, 2006 (earilest available date) to today's date. Then look at the box in the upper left corner of the page. Your 1 size down and 2 size down numbers will tell you how many B loads you have been offered in this time period and how many you declined.

The per mile numbers and specific type of B loads (white glove, surface expedite, air expedite) will not show up. Those numbers relating to our B loads came from a separate spreadsheet I keep.

Still, learning your own B load offer and acceptance history relative to your own history and truck type can be informative. Sharing your B load information here will provide readers with more data to work with and enable them to better judge the validity of RichM's claim and the weight that should be assigned to it when doing a C vs. D analysis.

Switching the topic just a bit. There is a scenario in which I believe a dry box C unit might be the best choice. That would be for a solo driver who wanted to specialize in and stick close to home on the East Coast. A short, two-axle C-unit with a small sleeper could zip in and out of NY City and up up and down the East Coast quite easily, and make some decent money too, I believe.

 

[TeamCaffee]

Phil you are White Glove you do not bubble up the same for loads in Express as we do.

You know as well as I do that you are considered a source when people are looking at getting into this business. When a new person is looking at buying a truck and you give your information as a T-Val truck that is not good information. As far as I know right now White Glove is still locked to new people.

So I think you really need to tell new people where you are coming from.

 

[ATeam]

Phil you are White Glove you do not bubble up the same for loads in Express as we do.

You know as well as I do that you are considered a source when people are looking at getting into this business. When a new person is looking at buying a truck and you give your information as a T-Val truck that is not good information. As far as I know right now White Glove is still locked to new people.

So I think you really need to tell new people where you are coming from.

I am not as familiar with FedEx Custom Critical dispatch procedures as you are. If White Glove trucks bubble up different than Surface Expedite (Express) trucks, that is news to me. White Glove trucks will of course bubble up for White Glove loads that Surface Expedite trucks do not, because of the equipment and driver credential differences. But other than that, I am unaware of any other dispatch differences.

But, as I said, you are more familiar. I know very little about how dispatch works fleet wide. I only know how we operate under the system as we understand it.

Regarding White Glove openings, you are correct. At present, new people are not getting in; at least from outside the existing FedEx Custom Critical fleet.

As I understand it, fleet owners who already have WG trucks in the fleet and need to fill vacancies in those trucks may be able to get a new team credentialled as WG. Thus, a high-quality newbie team may be able to find their way into White Glove by getting into a fleet owner's WG truck, developing a good track record (or bringing good credentials with them), and completing the required training.

I had an interesting conversation with a fleet owner friend yesterday. He surprised me by mentioning the list of good prospects that have contacted him. Usually, he is looking hard for good prospective teams. At present, he has more on his list than he needs. It seems things are tightening up in more ways than one.

Also, and this is important, I heard from a driver yesterday and confirmed with FedEx recruiting today, that new C-units are not currently being accepted into the White Glove fleet.

The contractor in question is a friend of mine. He has been with WG a long time. He wanted to build and bring a new CR-unit into the WG fleet. He was told "no." In view of his long track record, he is being allowed to bring a DR unit in.

So, back to the original question in this thread, "When is D better than C?" In the case of White Glove trucks at the present time, D is better than C when it is the only option you have.

C trucks are being accepted into the Surface Expedite fleet, but for any prospective contractor with any kind of truck or truck plans, the only place to get reliable and up to the minute information about FedEx Custom Critical truck types and openings is FedEx Custom Critical recruiting.

Do not make assumptions. Do not rely on what you read here. Do not rely on what you hear from other drivers. Do not proceed with FedEx Custom Critical without FIRST getting current information straight from the official source; in this case, FedEx Custom Critical recruiting. The phone number is:
866-711-3599.

 

[greg334]

Phil,
You should have just stuck to that one quote, it said it all.

My God, there is a lot of nothing being said.

I do have to offer a few things, I know I am sticking my nose into it but so what, I am waiting for a confirmation on a load so I can get out of here and bored as heck.

First thing I got to say this and maybe I missed it but I don’t see it so here goes; there is something that many D truck owners and for sure WG owners don’t know – It don’t matter what the load is, a B load is not about size or weight, the customer can request a dock high truck and it is a C load. I have had several of these when I was with FedEx, many would show up as a ‘discounted’ C load, but when it was stuck on my truck, it was a single pallet under 500 lbs.

The fact is that WG is different, they are special, and they are coddled. They dispatch differently and have a different attitude. I have said this before and will keep saying it – Phil you have only known one thing and only one thing and that is why you are running at your goals. I am glad you are successful and for some you are the model to pattern them selves after but I think you would struggle if you were in the surface group just like many others.

I got to say that FedEx is making a BIG mistake to allow WG fleet owners to bring on people without first offering the chance to internal people to join WG. It not only cheapens the service but promotes ‘everyone is not equal’ attitude that is prevalent with some at FedEx. I think that the WG fleet owner’s trucks should be demoted until the people that are placed in them prove themselves. It is utterly stupid to have an elite service and not play by the rules for the sake of the customer’s shipments.

Also on the surface side of the room, teams are looked at differently from solos, as are D units and C units. It is not a dwell time, or 22 points issue a lot of the times but some other things come into play. So there is an inequality on both sides of the room.

Now I left FedEx for a number of reasons, one was NOT because I didn’t like the system or could not make my decisions to be in the right place at the right time (remember that Luck factor?) but in reality I was not getting the offers and when I was, there was little money being offered.

And to disclose the info about my truck, I have a 16 foot box with a reefer and lift gate. I have 14 feet of cargo space and right now I have 9500lbs of capacity.

Now as to the question (at the end is the real answer) here is a realistic and informed answer that Phil and a few others can’t give you. I am going to be really honest too.


I would not get a ‘C’ unit.

At FedEx, my limitations were not myself, they were the company. I found out a lot of truths just before and after I left that many will say never happens, like favoritism. I also know that it is a business and for that reason I have been dispatched around to move WG trucks out, I was offered low paying loads and low weight loads that FedEx felt I should be able to take. For example, when you have three trucks and four vans sitting around the express center and they offer you a load and you refuse, as a C unit chances are you will never get a call back that day but that load was covered. It does not matter if D units are offered C loads or B units are offered D loads, what matters is getting the offer and only the offer.

With my present carrier, I have realized my issues in not getting the offers that others are getting (talked to two box truck owners last night and they are pushing 8k and 9k for this month) has nothing to do with my capacity as a business owner to run my business, where I am sitting but rather the way brokers and agents look at my truck. In fact last week I had the opportunity to see all the trucks in the entire fleet (both in and out of service) and I see I am the smallest straight truck and this is my problem. I have to compete with vans and box trucks that are larger than I am, last look there were 12 of them. I know what my limitations are and I am working hard to find my place in the big world of freight and it is an up hill battle.

I would recommend a D unit, something that would carry 15K at least and something that is about 20 feet of cargo space (notice I am not saying box size). Lift gates are cheap if you don’t mind a used one but don’t get a reefer.

So to answer the question, DO NOT LOOK at getting a truck for a specific company but a truck that you can move around between companies, a C unit will tie you into a specific company. Get something that you can be a little versatile in but at the same time Frugal.

 

[RichM]

I agree 100% with what Greg posted especially the last sentence,be frugal. A Team has told us on several occasions that he paid $255,000 for a custom C unit. Thats right a C unit. Yes it's built for a specialized service but what happens when that service goes away for whatever reason. Spcialized srvices may disappear to competition,key customers leaving the market that the service is needed or switching to a lower cost carrier and it goes on. Then you have a $255,000 vehicle which will be very limited in making the return on the investment spent.

 

[greg334]

You know Rich, if Phil pays it off and freight market drys up, it would make one great RV and it would be cheaper than most.

 

[davekc]

I would recommend a D unit, something that would carry 15K at least and something that is about 20 feet of cargo space (notice I am not saying box size). Lift gates are cheap if you don’t mind a used one but don’t get a reefer.

So to answer the question, DO NOT LOOK at getting a truck for a specific company but a truck that you can move around between companies, a C unit will tie you into a specific company. Get something that you can be a little versatile in but at the same time Frugal.

====================================
Bingo!! Someone figured it out. It is return on investment that folks need to pay attention to. I won't go into that number on a $255,000 truck investment. Take my word for it......ugly doesn't begin to describe it.

 

[ATeam]

Bingo!! Someone figured it out. It is return on investment that folks need to pay attention to. I won't go into that number on a $255,000 truck investment. Take my word for it......ugly doesn't begin to describe it.

Dave,

You frequently mention "return on investment." For those of us (including me, it seems) who do not understand why this is important, would you be kind enough to explain just what ROI is, why it is important, and what an acceptable ROI number is to you? For people contemplating a first-time truck purchase, what exactly should they know and do so as not to end up with a severe case of ugly ROI?

 

[davekc]

It can be lengthy in detail, but for the purposes of a single post, I will try to summarize. Length may constitute boredom and the key points are missed.

When I talk about ROI, I look at the percentage/amount of dollars invested, verses the return/risks on those invested dollars.

Every time a dollar is invested, there is a general risk. With regards to expediting, I look at several things.
1. Initial investment
2. investment ratio against potential revenue in the market place.
3. Vertical movement= can this vehicle be moved to another company or industry and maintain its marketability
4. Cost to maintain the investment against the initial investment.
5. Recovery/risks of investment dollars should one exit the industry whether by choice or forced circumstance
6. Value of investment in an open market or resale value at the end of investment cycle.
7. Market competition and government regulation against initial investment.
8. Since I am a fleet owner, is the truck marketable to potential drivers?


When I put an investment of $255,000 and todays WG/specialty rates together, I get an ugly picture. Doesn't mean one doesn't make money, but by comparison, there are a whole lot of other places I would stick my money.
Additionally, if I mean if the truck is $255,000 and was financed, the actual payoff and costs could be considerably higher.

 

[rodeehos]

What kind of profit are you left with after paying for a $255,000 rig? What you doing that you need to pay that much for a truck?

 

[greg334]

3. Vertical movement= can this vehicle be moved to another company or industry and maintain its marketability

Dave,
Don't you mean a lateral movement - like company to like company is lateral, right?

Also another factor involved is competition within the company and that is the basis for my frugal comment. You are in direct competition with other owners/drivers in the company. say I am in an apartment on wheels with a 1900 a month mortgage on the apartment I drive, my bottom rate is $1.35 a mile at $3.61 a gallon but Sam (or Juan) next to me has a paid off truck and his bottom rate is 96 cents a mile. I may be offered the run but if I turn it down, he may take it because of his operating expenses are a lot cheaper.

So i guess being Frugal means to be competitive and control your expenses.

Phil said it the best;

As a practical matter, it does not matter what they call the load (B, C, D). What matters is how much the load pays. For us, low paying B loads are treated the same as low paying C or D loads. They are delcined.

But I still have to add that it matters more that they make the offer to you in the first place.

 

[davekc]

No.
Vertical is what I meant.

Wiki definition
Vertical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vertical market, a group of similar businesses and customers which engage in trade based on specific and specialized needs

You did bring up a point of internal competition. That could be considered in some folks circumstances. It doesn't apply to me personally.
Also, if you are never offered anything, you are still at a loss. Their is a inherit cost to just sitting.

 

[InIdaho]

You all are such a great resource.

Thank you for your candor and well reasoned answers.

John

 

[greg334]

Dave, I am thinking lateral within an industry but you are right.

But I think that there is something that is called Opportunity Cost that comes into play here too - the opportunity to sit in a big fancy quarter million dollar plus apartment on wheels trying to impress everyone who wonder how much it cost.

(no Phil that is not directed to you but someone else)

 

[highway star]

Length may constitute boredom and the key points are missed.

Amen brother!!!

I chose a D-unit and I'm glad I did. I can't do 15k, but that's a good idea and my next one will be pusher or tandem.