What's the difference?

[greg334]

Now maybe mr. Buddha can answer this one.

I am for imigration, proper immigration that will help people get here legally and without fear of being a victim without protections

But with the recent rallies, some of them sponsored by the all American AFL-CIO, some want to push for reforms which stop the deportation of criminals who invaded our country and others want to reward criminals by giving citizenship to those who are here.

They are using the reasoning that deportation tears apart the family by deporting one or both parents and puts a strain on the people left here.

So my question is this;

Are we being a moral country by removing the criminal aspect of the crime of invasion for the sole purpose to keep the criminals family together while we break up families of others who commit a crime without hessitation when they are sent off to prison?

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Were the pilgrims boat people?

irrelevant...

Greg....
deport them all...kids born here as well...they are the product of a criminal act and therefore the proceeds of a crime...they are illegal as well....deny them citizenship.....

 

[MrGautama]

It's a lot more complicated than that but to make it short:

The immigration aspect is treated as a civil offense or federal one depending on a lot of different factors so just running the word criminal indiscriminately is misleading and xenophobic.

Our immigration problem originates from two distinctive reasons.



One is our eternal intervention, for the benefit of American corporations, in the Latin American countries impeding their social progress which is instrumental in forcing millions of people into poverty. So now we have the hordes of displaced people looking to escape their situation, a creation in grand measure by the greed of our concentrations of power.

Second, Industry here in the US loves illegal immigrants for the savings it means and the detriment to the native workers rights.

So we have a double force, one pushing these people against our border and the other sucking them in.

Now treating these people as criminals because they are the victims, in grand measure, of the infinite greed of our elite is revolting and separating families is inhuman.

If a real solution for the problem is what we want this is how it should look:

1.- Let's get the CIA out of Latin America and allow the countries there to develop higher standards of living while the American corporations compete in a level field to lessen the immigration pressure .

2.- Penalize heavily the US industries that hire illegal immigrants to discourage the sucking in effect they produce.

3.- Maintain close ties with Mexico to to detect and control changes in the immigrational pressure against the border in order to pinpoint the origin and use the OAS to find a remedy to the specific region.










Now, what I don't understand is why you guys are against illegal immigrants when they are such a bonanza for business?

 

[Turtle]

If an alien is here illegally, it is in violation of federal immigration laws, which makes it criminal, not civil.

As to the rest of your post, uhm, wow.

"...for the benefit of American corporations...", "...impeding their social progress...", "...the greed of our concentrations of power...", "...treating these people as criminals because they are the victims..."

I can't believe all of the factors, that are actually real, especially in the case of Mexicans and their primary reason for wanting to be here, that you left out and completely dismiss as irrelevant. At least you're consistent, anything "American corporation" or has more money than everyone else is evil. I can't type any more 'cause I'm laughing too hard.

 

[Poorboy]

irrelevant...

Greg....
deport them all...kids born here as well...they are the product of a criminal act and therefore the proceeds of a crime...they are illegal as well....deny them citizenship.....

That's Right!! If they want to be in this Country then they should do it Legally and I Believe "Legally" Is the Key Word Just as Others Have Done! So If They are NOT here Legally then they are Criminals and they AND Their Families should be Deported Just One Time Only, and If Caught Again then Lock them Up for a Year or two then Deport them again and everytime they are Caught then Add Five Years to their Minimum Sentence and Deport them again!! Now we'll see if that Clown in the Whitehouse has the Gonads to close the Southern Borders like they should have been done Years Ago! But I Don't believe that he does! "Capons" Don't Have Gonads and Neither does This so called President..

 

[layoutshooter]

WOW, it's '60's radical time again!! Seal the border and ship the invaders out. Period. Layoutshooter

 

[teamjdw]

Who pay's while they sit in jail ,with 3 hots and ,a cot.Might even get a free education to boot.just shoot em.Unless you are native American you'r an illegal imigrant!

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I don't think I'd jail them either...why spend our good money...just keep dumping them back....even though this costs money as well...fencing the border is a one time expense because they already patrol...and we'll save more then it costs...

go after the employers
cut off the medical
no welfare.....

 

[Moot]

If an alien is here illegally, it is in violation of federal immigration laws, which makes it criminal, not civil.

As to the rest of your post, uhm, wow.

.....I can't type any more 'cause I'm laughing too hard.

Turtle, you are showing just what a cold blooded reptile you are! Ease up on MrGuano for he also is a victim. Where is your compassion? Its all about the victims. And the children. But especially about the children that are victims.

Xenophobic. MrG, how convenient to assign a phobia to someone or something that you don't agree with. You seem to have a fear of large American corporations like Xerox. You must be xerophobic!

 

[OntarioVanMan]

We've shown the world compassion for far too long...we've been abused and misused for our efforts...Time to lock the door and get tough....toss the bums out everyone of them...till they learn to respect our laws and apply to come in.....and then MAYBE we will invite them in at our convenience....

 

[greg334]

It's a lot more complicated than that but to make it short:

The immigration aspect is treated as a civil offense or federal one depending on a lot of different factors so just running the word criminal indiscriminately is misleading and xenophobic.

Actually as Turtle pointed out it is a criminal act to invade a country. If we did it, even as individuals, our rights are limited and we are treated as criminals in the country we invaded, why elevate them above us?

Putting a title person who does the act is not being xenophobic by any means, it is quite the opposite.

Our immigration problem originates from two distinctive reasons.


One is our eternal intervention, for the benefit of American corporations, in the Latin American countries impeding their social progress which is instrumental in forcing millions of people into poverty. So now we have the hordes of displaced people looking to escape their situation, a creation in grand measure by the greed of our concentrations of power.

STOP ---- first off I am not pointing to Latin American's as the primary group by any means I am saying all types of invaders are criminals. The Chinese, the Russians, The Albanians, the Iraqis and even people here from Canada and England, all who have come here without permission.

Second, Industry here in the US loves illegal immigrants for the savings it means and the detriment to the native workers rights.

I agree with what you are saying but the problem is not just industry, it is people and their need for cheap things and services.

So we have a double force, one pushing these people against our border and the other sucking them in.

Agreed but the solution is not about the other side of the border, it has to happen here.

Now treating these people as criminals because they are the victims, in grand measure, of the infinite greed of our elite is revolting and separating families is inhuman.

Well I would say treat them as people but they are criminals but we make them victims by continuing to allow them to be here and enter our country unchecked. It is not I don't want immigrants, but I want them to enter legally for my benefit and their benefit alike. Not to mince words, you know and I know that the criminal element operates within these communities and these people do not help when crimes are committed, they have either a loyalty to the criminal groups or live in fear, legal immigration removes a lot of the barriers for them to live freely and without fear.

If a real solution for the problem is what we want this is how it should look:

1.- Let's get the CIA out of Latin America and allow the countries there to develop higher standards of living while the American corporations compete in a level field to lessen the immigration pressure .

OK again, it has nothing to do with Latin American, it is a problem that has to do with all kinds of nationalities.

2.- Penalize heavily the US industries that hire illegal immigrants to discourage the sucking in effect they produce.

Like the drug crimes, I do not think fining the companies are the right thing to do. I am incline to treat this as a serious national security issue and forfeiture of the company property where these people are working will end a lot very fast. If it is Tyson Chicken processing plant that the US government now owns or Jones and sons landscaping truck, trailer and equipment, the effect will be quick. They can go to court but these cases have already been settled and the US government has the upper hand.

3.- Maintain close ties with Mexico to to detect and control changes in the immigrational pressure against the border in order to pinpoint the origin and use the OAS to find a remedy to the specific region.

This is not a solution, Mexico needs to seriously clean house and they are slowly doing that but until the government can provide the same opportunities that people have here, the only real solution for our southern border is building a real border, not a fence.

Now, what I don't understand is why you guys are against illegal immigrants when they are such a bonanza for business?

Because it has ZERO to do with business, it has to do with the treatment of these people while being here illegally and the impact of innocent lives of our citizens. We must look beyond the business aspect and look at how thousands of people are smuggled into the country and abused during and after.

Using the fact that they were here as an invader does not negate their criminal act, they know they broke the law and they know by their actions of hiding, stealing identities and so on that there will be a punishment. By putting them on equal footing with other criminals, we are returning to the fairness of our legal system that has been twisted around for political reasons.

 

[Poorboy]

Who pay's while they sit in jail ,with 3 hots and ,a cot.Might even get a free education to boot.just shoot em.Unless you are native American you'r an illegal imigrant!

Were Paying for them Now and Way More than Jailing them with All of the Free Welfare, Health care, and Social Security , That they are Handed By The Hard Working Tax Payers, And Lets Not Forget the Jobs that they are Cheating The American Citizens out of! So It Sure would be Cheaper to Jail them All!!

 

[layoutshooter]

I was born in Detroit, Michigan. That makes me a native American. If your are born here to US citizen parents you are a native American. Sorry if you don't understand the 'Merican language enough to know what the word "native" means. Layoutshooter

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I was born in Detroit, Michigan. That makes me a native American. If your are born here to US citizen parents you are a native American. Sorry if you don't understand the 'Merican language enough to know what the word "native" means. Layoutshooter

Sorry Joe...you are an American..period....you are not entitled to a hyphenated citizenship....*L*

Native Americans in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[layoutshooter]

Neither is anyone else for that matter!!! Too many people worried about being other than American out there today. Our lovely congress had a big hand in this. Remember, divide and conquer. Create enough "special" groups, give them "special" rights or payments and make them victims. Then be sure to pit on against the other and now you have divided and it is easy to rule. The victims keep falling for it too and we end up paying for it. Layoutshooter

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Neither is anyone else for that matter!!! Too many people worried about being other than American out there today. Our lovely congress had a big hand in this. Remember, divide and conquer. Create enough "special" groups, give them "special" rights or payments and make them victims. Then be sure to pit on against the other and now you have divided and it is easy to rule. The victims keep falling for it too and we end up paying for it. Layoutshooter

See I am an Ameri/Can!!! just joking Joe...

everyone running around with a hyphenated citizenship.....either - or ....you are an American....not Latin..not Mex...not Hispanic..Just American....And thats not so bad in my book...

 

[layoutshooter]

I am a plain old ordinary "JOE" American and proud of it!! I was born here, raised here and will die here as an American. I have no need to have other identities. What a shame so many others want to be anything but. Layoutshooter

 

[MrGautama]

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Latin America contributes the bulk of illegal immigrants so should be the focus for finding a solution instead of diverting attention and resources to groups from a different origin that contribute just a fraction to the problem. The composition of the undocumented population is as follows:

81% Latin America (57% Mexicans)
9% Asia
6% Europe
4% The rest of the world


The idea that the problem must be tackled only from the domestic front just perpetuates it to the benefit of the centers of power, which are very motivated to leave things as they are. It's just a case of “cant have it both ways”; if domination of weaker countries for the benefit of business is the preferred goal, immigration problems are inevitable. Both go hand in hand.


The proposition that Mexico has to “clean house” is a valid one but it won't happen until the US policy towards it is reversed. No progressive government has been allowed across the border so no progress has been achieved.


Business is the primary reason the pressure against our border is of such magnitude, smuggling of people and infiltration of criminality just comes along for the ride.


To get to the root first have to realistically define the priorities of the US foreign policy, and as I've done before they can be presented as follows:

1.- Ensure that the world is safe for American corporations.

2.- Enhancing the financial statements of defense contractors at home who have contributed
generously to members of congress.

3.- Preventing the rise of any society that might serve as a successful example of an alternative to the capitalist model.

4.- Extending political and economic hegemony over as wide an area as possible.



The following list shows the highlights of the US foreign policy related to the immigration issue, it's only a surface look to some of the progressive governments and movements crushed in the context of our foreign policy, this are only relatively recent actions that are the top of a long history of criminal intervention.


-Guatemala:

Intervention: Overthrow Government Jacobo Arbenz

Prompted by: negative impact on the interests of The United Fruit Company, risk of a successful example of an alternative to capitalism


-Brazil:

Intervention: Overthrow Government Joao Goulart

Prompted by: negative impact on the interests of ITT, adoption of an independent stand in foreign policy.


-Dominican Republic:

Intervention: Overthrow Government Juan Bosch

Prompted by: Regulation of foreign investment to control excessively exploitation of the countries resources. Policy restricting the persecution of Communists or those labeled that way unless they violated the law.


-Chile:

Intervention: Overthrown Government Salvador Allende

Prompted by: negative impact on the interests of Anaconda, Kennecott and ITT, risk of a successful example of an alternative to capitalism


-Nicaragua:

Intervention: Overthrow Government Sandinista Council

Prompted by: Forced fall of the Somoza Dynasty, risk of a successful example of an alternative to capitalism


-El Salvador:

Intervention: 6 billion dollars to avoid the fall of the immensely unpopular pro-elite government, risk of a successful example of an alternative to capitalism.


-Mexico:

Also known as “The Laboratory for Globalization” is the most successful of all covert interventions, after decades of keeping the "correct" party in power, Mexico has permanently been locked into pro US corporation policies by treaty ,NAFTA.
Right in time considering that the last presidential election almost ended with the Washington Men out of power and uncertainty of what will happen next time.




We as citizens by not discussing (or in some cases denying) the root of the problem perpetuate the status quo and keep it's resolution at arms length and unreachable. As long as we keep the blindfold in it's place it will be “business as usual”
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[layoutshooter]

All done with murder. Just as the left always does. Peace my butt. Non-violent, yeah right. How many are you guys going to kill here to make it happen? I guess that might be why you all need GPS corridinates on all our houses eh? That way you know where to start. Who is going to lead it? Colin Powell or William Ayers? Layoutshooter

 

[MrGautama]

If an alien is here illegally, it is in violation of federal immigration laws, which makes it criminal, not civil.

As to the rest of your post, uhm, wow.

"...for the benefit of American corporations...", "...impeding their social progress...", "...the greed of our concentrations of power...", "...treating these people as criminals because they are the victims..."

I can't believe all of the factors, that are actually real, especially in the case of Mexicans and their primary reason for wanting to be here, that you left out and completely dismiss as irrelevant. At least you're consistent, anything "American corporation" or has more money than everyone else is evil. I can't type any more 'cause I'm laughing too hard.

I'm going to have to go to the doctor... this is getting out of control, my alter-ego is just making no sense!!!

Can an alter-ego be brain washed without altering the ego?... Oh so many questions...