What is this?

[natsys]

I was parking this morning and noticed a brown patch on the ground right under the burner area. Before shutting off the truck I took a look and there's a good drip coming off of the item in this pic. You can just barely see a drip on the lower left corner of it. I can't seem to get a better pic and I'm not sure how to get at it. Do I remove the def tank and go in the side or the fender and go in from the front? Not sure if this is leaking or something is leaking on top of it and running down off of it. Looks like a fuel line above it, but I really can't see. I don't mind tearing into it, but I'd love to know where to start looking.

 

[Moot]

Start by trying to identify the brown stuff. Does it feel and smell like oil or fuel? Taste! Does it taste like... This reminds me of a Cheech and Chong bit. I better stop here.

 

[natsys]

Well, that was kinda stupid of me...it's diesel fuel. The patch is brown on the ground, but it's diesel from somewhere in the burner system. I'm thinking a supply line, but I just can't see in there real good. I'll have another poke around with a mirror and see if I can identify where it's coming from, but its definitely diesel.

 

[greasytshirt]

The atomizer is leaking. There's a cup seal inside of a fuel pressure regulator that tends to crack. This seal and a related o-ring are now available separately. After they are replaced, but before the atomizer cover is reinstalled, the fuel pressure has to be checked and adjusted, which requires dealer software to accomplish.

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[natsys]

That stinks. But it's what I needed to know. Thanks again. It's going in Monday. I'll post results.

 

[natsys]

Here's what's been happening since the last post.

Took the truck into the local Mack/Volvo/Hino dealer.....that could be part of the issue. Here's what the invoice said:

"3035 inspected fuel system, found atomization module wet. Need to replace the fuel line and nozzle that goes to the atomization module. Customer approved. Fuel line replaced, cleaned residue. Put through a regen, confirmed no more fuel leak." 4 hours labor and a 87377E0050 pipe was $641.42. I was a little upset I hadn't found a leaking supply line myself.

Was raining Friday but I saw a rainbow stream coming from were I part the truck at work. Today at home, I checked for any leaks after sitting all weekend and nothing. I started it up and let it warm up in my driveway. Drove to work (1.6 miles) and parked. Didn't look for a leak, but when I came out 2 hours later (it was just parked--not running) fuel was leaking off of the front mudflap and stained the dirt parking lot. I drove it around for about 50-60 miles and couldn't make it leak again.

The dealer has it again and is already condemning the atomization module. I asked him if he checked the cup and seal mentioned previously, but he seems to ignore me. The module is $3,000 plus labor. Can't imagine it would crap out after only 3800 miles.

I'll post the results when I get them, but if there's anything else I should know I'd love to hear it. One other thing, at home the truck is parked with the rear slightly downhill, at work, the nose is downhill. Not sure if that makes a difference, but something isn't right.

 

[Hino123]

Here's what's been happening since the last post.

Took the truck into the local Mack/Volvo/Hino dealer.....that could be part of the issue. Here's what the invoice said:

"3035 inspected fuel system, found atomization module wet. Need to replace the fuel line and nozzle that goes to the atomization module. Customer approved. Fuel line replaced, cleaned residue. Put through a regen, confirmed no more fuel leak." 4 hours labor and a 87377E0050 pipe was $641.42. I was a little upset I hadn't found a leaking supply line myself.

Was raining Friday but I saw a rainbow stream coming from were I part the truck at work. Today at home, I checked for any leaks after sitting all weekend and nothing. I started it up and let it warm up in my driveway. Drove to work (1.6 miles) and parked. Didn't look for a leak, but when I came out 2 hours later (it was just parked--not running) fuel was leaking off of the front mudflap and stained the dirt parking lot. I drove it around for about 50-60 miles and couldn't make it leak again.

The dealer has it again and is already condemning the atomization module. I asked him if he checked the cup and seal mentioned previously, but he seems to ignore me. The module is $3,000 plus labor. Can't imagine it would crap out after only 3800 miles.

I'll post the results when I get them, but if there's anything else I should know I'd love to hear it. One other thing, at home the truck is parked with the rear slightly downhill, at work, the nose is downhill. Not sure if that makes a difference, but something isn't right.

I have seen the small braided steel line from the atomizer to the burner nozzle leak a few times. I see atomizer fuel leaks on average 1-3 every weeks, its fairly common. The tricky thing about a fuel leak at that steel braided line is that it only has fuel in it when the truck is raising the heat for a regen or a scr warm up. With the dealer software (DX2) you can command on the fuel pump and atomizer and inspect for leaks. Sometimes those lines can be distorted and not seal properly if you don't use two 7-1/6 wrenches to snug them. Either way,that should not be your issue now as they have replaced the line and I assume cleaned the nozzle.
As far as the atomizer leaking fuel, if it is ONLY leaking fuel and not setting codes you can replace just the seals. It's kind of a pain in the butt but it can be done on the truck. Warranty pays just over one hour but it usually takes me 2-2.5 to replace it and re-check the fuel pressure. It can be done on the truck, but I just remove the whole thing, and replace the seals on the bench rather than try to cheat it on the truck. If it has codes for the atomizer (ie air/fuel malfunction), especially the P2463 your probably going to have to replace it.
I see your truck is a 2011 258lp with 3800miles? If so, I will assume your out of your federal emissions warranty (5yr 100,000mi) even if the truck has less than 100,000 miles its still out of warranty because its over 5yrs old. They can double check at the dealer.
I don't see how parking it down/up hill would make a difference, if I get one with a good fuel leak at the atomizer, steam clean the area, blow it dry, then pin point the leak. They may not have done a good job removing the old fuel.
I can not attach links here but.. if you go to Hino.com---parts-service---publications---service information---- it will lead you to a page that show service bulletins/recalls/tech tips and even a copy of the body builder book all for FREE. The body builder book also has schematics in it. Search the TSB's (technical service bulletins) and tech tips for Atomizer or burner. You will find the complete seal replacement procedure and even the part#s for the seals. I can email them to you if you pm me your email address. BTW who is the dealer you took it to?

 

[natsys]

Thanks for the reply. If starting a conversation is equivalent to a p.m, I just sent one.

It does only have 3800 miles, but as you pointed out, its out of warranty due to age. I asked them to give Hino a shout about it, but when it was thought to be just a fuel line it didn't seem to warrant that kind of special treatment.

The information you provided answers my question about how it could leak sometimes and not others. I don't know how parking it one way or another would make a difference--just trying to put as much information out there as I can--I don't know what may be important and what isn't. I know it was never doing a regen when it leaked so the scr warm up may have been occurring. Seems I need to know if it has any codes, but there was no indication that they checked for any--they didn't show they found any on the invoice or mention that they had. Before I authorize replacing the atomizer I'll make sure I know what codes they found.

Good info. Much appreciated.

***Edit: Just looked at those tech tips and TSB's. Makes a lot more sense now.***

 

[Hino123]

They most likley hooked to the truck with the Dealer software (DX2) to perform a stationary re-gen. Fault codes (FC) would come up on a main screen which shows if any were stored. No codes would be a good thing. If there are no codes it is probably just a leaking seal. I would however ask for the FC if they want you to replace the atomizer, rather than re-seal it. I might also ask for a print out of the "burner event log" This log stores fault codes for the burner system. It will show if you have had any air, or fuel pressure faults related to the atomizer.
3k for a atomizer is a tough pill to swallow, especially if 2 seals and a few hours labor will get you back on the road.
I think some shops would rather sell you a new part, rather than fix it. This way, all the liability is on the part manufacturer not the shop, or tech if there is a workmanship error. Im not saying this is the case here, but it is something to be mindful of.

 

[natsys]

I was wondering how to politely ask to see if they connected it to DX2. Telling them I want the burner event log is a great way to do that. Simply asking for the FC would be awkward if they hadn't done it. I'm used to seeing them listed on the invoice to prove what the problem was and why certain corrective action was taken.

Didn't consider they did a stationary regen. The truck went in showing 2 bars on the dpf indicator for a while, so it wouldn't have taken much driving or even idling to hit 3 enabling it to be done manually through the switch, so in my ignorance I just assumed that's what they did. That's good news since it indicates it probably was diagnosed correctly.

Still not sure how to deal with the fact they replaced a hose that didn't fix the problem. Seems quite unlikely 2 parts failed at the same time--the hose and the seals/or the atomizer. But I can see it from your side. If I were the dealer I wouldn't want to see it come back so replacing the atomizer would make sense. Of course, as you mention--they're not coughing up the money for it. I really think a significant contributing factor here is that they just don't see as many of these trucks and their common problems as shops like yours. Hopefully I'm wrong on that.

I'll have to see what codes--if any--come up and make a decision from there. Your input really helps to make me an educated consumer. If not for the cost of the software I could do this in house after seeing the TSB.

 

[Hino123]

You may have had 2 fuel leaks, the line being the most obvious, and maybe the atomizer was a smaller leak. Sometimes they can be trick to diagnose as there in an area where there are multiple place to leak and they can be hard to see. Im my personal experience most techs want to fix it right the first time. Sometimes fixing one problem reveals another.
As far as the codes go ask them to print out the complete "dx" report. If they connected to the truck it saves all of the data to the laptop so it can be retrieved. In the dx report it will list active/inactive faults and the burner event log. I would just say you would like a copy of it for your records. It should only take them 5-10 min to print it. The "dx" report can be up to 50 pages so they might give you a lil grief if they have to print that many pages. If they say they havent connected to the truck politley ask them to. It dosent take long

 

[greasytshirt]

As far as the codes go ask them to print out the complete "dx" report. If they connected to the truck it saves all of the data to the laptop so it can be retrieved. In the dx report it will list active/inactive faults and the burner event log. I would just say you would like a copy of it for your records. It should only take them 5-10 min to print it. The "dx" report can be up to 50 pages so they might give you a lil grief if they have to print that many pages. If they say they havent connected to the truck politley ask them to. It dosent take long

I think now we're supposed to be able to use DX to retrieve past work information, even if it's not at our dealer. The latest techcast mentioned this but I haven't tried it.

I was wondering how to politely ask to see if they connected it to DX2.

PM me or Hino123 your VIN.

 

[Hino123]

As far as the codes go ask them to print out the complete "dx" report. If they connected to the truck it saves all of the data to the laptop so it can be retrieved. In the dx report it will list active/inactive faults and the burner event log. I would just say you would like a copy of it for your records. It should only take them 5-10 min to print it. The "dx" report can be up to 50 pages so they might give you a lil grief if they have to print that many pages. If they say they havent connected to the truck politley ask them to. It dosent take long

I think now we're supposed to be able to use DX to retrieve past work information, even if it's not at our dealer. The latest techcast mentioned this but I haven't tried it.

I was wondering how to politely ask to see if they connected it to DX2.

PM me or Hino123 your VIN.

Yep you or I can look it up, just need a vin. I look up Penske trucks all the time. They bring em after they clear the codes, then I look in Past work info from the portal and see what they have done. You can also look at any tests rhat were performed as well.
Oh, and I also had another truck with a leaking atomizer fuel line come in today, it was spewing out of the side of the line.

 

[natsys]

Funny that you posted that pic just as I was composing this reply.

You could be right about the two leaks, but from my experience with car dealers I've developed a distrustful nature. I'm sure most techs want to fix it right--especially if they get paid flat rate and have to fix it for free if it comes back due to something being wrong. But I've seen too many dealerships that put profit above all else and WILL find something wrong because they have to generate income on every vehicle.

The truck wasn't looked at yesterday, but today they said it needed a new atomizer. I asked what the FCs were and got nothing. I explained that if they could show me that the atomizer had malfunctioned I would understand why it needed replacing, but that if was only leaking I wanted the seals replaced. They preferred to put in a new part with a warranty and don't do the replacement seal method. Long story short, they put it back together and I took it home.

I called a couple of dedicated Hino dealerships that only work on them and I'm leaning towards the one that does higher volume work. They say they've done many re-seal jobs and that Hino prefers this approach when an atomizer comes in under warranty. (That's not a surprise considering the difference in cost.) The other shop said that they only recently started doing them and that "it's a big job".

I sent you both the VIN. If you find that there really was a FC indicating atomizer failure it would be good to know.

BTW, was that hose the only thing leaking? Or was there something else?

 

[Hino123]

Thats what I suspected they might say. I think you may be right in looking into-another high volume dealer. The fact is that required training for dealerships is expensive. The larger the dealer, the more tech's that are required to be certified by the OEM. The more certified techs in the dealer usually means better educated techs on your particiular make/model. The Hino Burner system was only used for 4years. The only other OEM to use this system that I am aware of was Mack on the MR and LEU garbage truck. ( Mack also stopped using a burner) Its not something your average tech has a lot of knowledge about. In a smaller volume shop you may have got the "cummins" or "detroit" guy. They may be a hell of a engine tech, but have no idea what the hell a atomizer is.
Basically the larger the amount of volume of hino's = the larger knowledge base of the product and its "quirks" Knowledge of the product saves you the customer $.
That was just the hose leaking, cust did not even complain of leaking fuel. I re sealed a un related oil leak, noticed it had 3 bars in the meter and needed a regen. I always run my trucks for 10 min in the yard after a oil leak repair, before a road test. So I figured I would "get two birds stoned at once" Regen and leak check. I have a large sheet of cardboard I slide under the truck to make any drips easy to see. The cardboard was bone dry for oooh 10 min, when the DPR got up to temp I noticed it spewing fuel all ove the cardboard. Looked under and found the line was damaged/leaking. $122 later and she had a new line.
I need my work laptop to search the dealer portal/past work Info. I'll take a peek tomorrow and let you know if there were any atomizer faults.

 

[natsys]

Well, a lot of information has been exchanged via PM's, and for anyone else coming down this road next, here's what I decided to do.

The tech sheets mentioned earlier by Hino123 are very easy to follow. If not for needing DX software this isn't a hard job. Hino123 added that with all the reseal jobs he's done, only 1 needed to have the fuel pressure reset. GreasyT often resets the ones he does, but I decided to take a chance and do the job myself. If the fuel pressure turned out good, I'd know soon enough if it leaks. But they've never had a reseal leak. Also, there were no codes to indicate any fuel or air problem with the atomizer.

I bought the cup seal and o-ring for about $20 at the local Hino dealership, and picked up a tube of silicone grease at home depot. I removed the rear of the right fender though it turns out it wasn't necessary, but it did allow me to see a little better. I marked and removed the ignitor wires and took out the exhaust sensor with a 17 mm open end wrench. I had to unplug it since the wires turned while I unscrewed it. Then I used a 10 mm socket on a 1/4" drive to take out the frame side ignitor bolt. This allows it to be tipped up to loosen and remove the opposite bolt, which I found very hard to get a wrench on.

The 4 pin-in-head T-27 torx bolts on the atomizer were next and the cover came out easily. Loosen the air valve with a 9/16" wrench and slightly turn it, then MARK THE FUEL REGULATOR with a paint pen so you'll know where it goes back in without overtightening. Use a 1-1/16" socket and remove the fuel regulator. Mine came out in 3 1/2 turns. It also had a spot where it was a little hard to turn unscrewing, but it came right out.

The o-ring was stuck in the atomizer but it came out easily with a piece of mig wire bent into a hook ( I couldn't find a pick ). The cup seal was toast. It was dry and brittle. When I tried to roll it off the piston the outer part of the cup just tore off. Then the remainder wouldn't stretch to remove it, it just snapped. I lubed the new one and pushed it on easily, and lubed the piston and put it back in the regulator. Some lube on the o-ring and put it on the regulator and it was time to reinstall.

The regulator had the same sticky part when it screwed in as when I removed it, so I triple checked the alignment to be sure I wasn't cross threading it. I carefully counted 3 1/2 turns and lined up the regulator with the paint marks. Rotated the air valve back to its original position (it stops when it gets to the right place and you can't turn it any further) and tightened the bolt. Then reinstalled the atomizer cover being sure to line up the wiring harness seal with the notch in the front of the cover. Next, the far bolt on the ignitor which I had to tip back to barely get a 10mm 12 point open end wrench on it. Then when I tipped it down to insert the near bolt it helped tighten the far bolt a little more so it was snug. Put in the near bolt and attached the ignitor wires. Reinstalled the exhaust sensor and plugged it in and it was ready to fire up. I started the truck and ran it for about 20 minutes and didn't have any leaks. I put the rear fender back on and drove it off and on all afternoon, everything is still dry.

Many thanks to GreasyT and Hino123 for their vast knowledge and willingness to access and read the records for my truck. The whole job took me 3 hours (spent a lot of time looking for tools, etc.) and 2 days later there are no codes and no leaks. So rather than $3000 plus labor I spent $20 and 3 hours. The truck has 4500 miles so I think age is more of a factor in these leaking than use, but I'm real happy with this approach to solving my leaky atomizer.

 

[greasytshirt]

Natsys is buying the next round!

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[natsys]

Fair enough.

Should I ship you a case of Dr. Pepper?

 

[natsys]

Crap.

Did I post too soon?

MIL came on today. Wasn't on when I parked, on steady 2 hours later when I left and staying on.

Only 1 code, P141F.

Is that an indicator of fuel pressure out of spec? Or perhaps I pinched a wire under the atomizer cover?

It did a regen yesterday no issues. Now this.

Might have to take this one in.

 

[Hino123]

P141F is a generic code that sets in the ECU, It basically means you have a fault with the Burner and will set a code in the burner control unit (BCU). It could be anything related to the burner system, the only way to tell is to have the code pulled. I doubt you pinched a wire in the cover
I will say the guy I work with has had a few comebacks with atomizer re-seals, they were setting high fuel pressure codes even though he swore he set them to 95 psi.
Crawl under and make sure nothing wiggled loose, check all connections to be sure they are tight, if you find nothing your gonna have to take it in.