What is owed you?

[pjjjjj]

Second the driver, being independent should have been brought into the conversation by a four way call with the customer, dispatch and the dock people. He is part of the chain and needs to be in on the decisions, not just told to sit and wait. He is a business entity, entitled to that - he is not an employee nor dispatch owns that capacity.
........

[*] Dispatch didn't seem to trust the driver to listen to his take on the situation nor allowed him to decide whether or not it was going to go

Greg..I see your point..far too often the driver/contractor on the scene is left out of any conversations and that is too bad as he/she has first hand knowledge of the situation...many times I've been left stranded as it seems, left in the dark without any direct input of the situation...It is frustrating to say the least.

Somehow I am seeing this as a fairly narrow view from the driver's eyes only. The driver has to understand that there can be numerous parties involved in the completion and coordination of one shipment. If a driver's contractual obligation is with one of those parties, that is who he needs to deal with, and the driver needs to trust that party to deal with the other parties which they are contracted with. It is a big chain and the guys on the dock might have good information and they might not, they may not be privy to what is going on back in the office between the paying parties. The dock guys may even have a vested interest in not wanting to find creative solutions. For a driver to take instruction from anyone other than who he is contracted to without clearing it with them first, is breaking the chain and becoming a loose cannon.

Alot depends on what kind of carrier you drive for, if you drive for a larger carrier you can almost assume you are going to be paid detention or dry run pay, it has been my experience so far in that most of the loads my small carrier does are load board loads and most of the time the carriers that broker these loads out wont pay detention or even dry run pay. I have gone to many shippers and the freight wouldnt fit and the company that brokered the load out wouldnt pay anything. So how long should i sit not knowing if im going to receive anything if i do sit for 2 or 3 hrs?

The frustration is understandable, but those issues should be dealt with between driver and carrier before any loads are dispatched so that we don't have a driver sitting at a facility wondering how much he's going to be paid.

 

[Moot]

Greg, in the real world it is the paying customer that decides if the load is to cancel or not. Dispatch can pull the driver off the load but the carrier will not be able to collect dry run or detention pay without the paying customer terminating the shipment.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

I have to empathize with that driver. My nephew and I waited at a shipper for three hours, knowing full well we would not be loaded after one. PANTHER kept us hanging, and then only paid us regular dry run pay after 150 miles of dh. Not to mention it screwed up the weekend for any long runs.

Yes, the driver was at fault for losing the dry run. But I have a suspicion that this tactic of having the truck wait for hours, in order to have the drivers drive off, is something that needs to be addressed.

Ok... after reading the clarification, I don't empathize with the driver. But my story still stands.

 

[LDB]

I read the initial post in email so I didn't have the clarification. Without it I imagined the shipper was a one horse, uh forklift, operation and the forklift was dead. It said couldn't be loaded right away due to a problem. Regardless of the reason, and the snow is certainly an issue now, the driver screwed up by leaving. One would have hoped the driver might learn from it. Leaving before dispatch says it's ok = no pay. Perhaps the two incidents were back to back so there wasn't time to learn. In any event, the driver is owed nothing for either job because he left unauthorized and forfeited.

One of Panther's significant warts was telling you to keep waiting long after there was any reason to wait. Apparently it hasn't been removed yet. In my case I showed up to a delivery at the address given. I don't recall where or which company but it was an auto plant. I was told by security all deliveries go to such and such address and no trucks were allowed on the property. I told him I had to call my company to advise them before I left. Also I wanted to get my extra stop pay of course. He said no and if I didn't leave immediately the police would be called. I left and drove the 8 miles to the dock. I called Panther along the way and told them what happened. The dispatcher said no extra stop pay because I left. I asked if he heard the part about the police being called if I didn't leave immediately. He said I should have waited as the rules require. That wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back but it was in the basket and contributed.

 

[greg334]

I guess it comes down to this, either you are in business for yourself or you are an employee.

I understand your point Moot and agree that the customer is one who can cancel the run but I can tell you so can the carrier.

Also in the real world this system that many work under is screwed up, many times dispatch doesn't do their job or fails to ask questions but it always seems to come down to the fact that people are cheap and expect something for nothing.

Time is money.

Again this is a communications issue, the dispatcher and carrier failed to insist on a conversation with all involved IF the load was that important, apparently it wasn't.

The other thing I can not stress enough is that the driver/owner is an independent contractor, a key to everything and leaving them hanging or ordering them to wait is wrong. They don't work for the carrier as employees and their time is as important as is the customers.

 

[RoadKing06]

I would have to say the driver is not entitled to any pay also.

We just last night had a load in Columbus, Oh to pick up. We were 2 hours early for pick up, hoping to get an early start on the drive to PA. The shipper required a reference number that we were not given, therefore the shipper couldn't find the load to load us with. (We were picking up from a freight company and delivering to another freight company.)

We called dispatch to let them know the situation. Of course we are told to hang on, we get told to hang on a lot and end up hanging on for hours or even days, no return calls is what I am referring to. We called back after an hour and were told that they are looking into it and that we weren't even due there for another hour yet.

So we waited another hour and ten minutes for a return phone call, it didn't come. We called back and asked again if they were able to get us the reference number required by the shipper in order to confim what shipment we were to take to PA. We were told they were still waiting for a response from the customer. We went back into the shipper, to see if they found anything yet going to the location we had for the shipment and the weight we had, since we are now at the pick up time we thought maybe it was now in their system.

We were told that it is unheard of that we would be given a pick up time, and since they are a freight company they normally would have used their own trucks not called in a third party to make the run. The shipper (the freight company that we were picking up from)stated that they do call in third parties sometimes for a 53' trailers sometimes but never a Straight Truck. We asked them if they minded that we wait on their lot till we had clarification as to where the load was. No go ahead and stay inside if you want to stay warm, we are told.

We call dispatch again to ask what they found out. It is now an hour past the pick up time. They said they are still waiting on the reference number from the customer but were assured that the run was a go to please be patient and the customer will take care of everything and get the reference number for us.

Three and a half hours after the assigned time of picking up the load dispatch finally calls back. (We had gone to the truck and slept for a while.) They have the reference number now. We go back into the shipper (freight company where we are picking up the load) with the reference number and the load is found. There are two other reference numbers now that came in with the one we were given but they are all going to different places but are from the same original shipper (customer).

We pull into the dock and the shipper loads the truck with the load that matches the reference number we have. Keep in mind that the delivery address is different than the one we were given, even a different state.

We call dispatch, but we were not given the opportunity to talk to them, we are told to hang on again. (They are busy people.) So we wait another 20 minutes while still sitting in the dock for them to call us back. We are reading the Bill of Lading and see that that customer is also requiring a lift gate and an inside delivery. We have no lift gate. We have gotten to a pick up before that required a lift gate and were unable to take the load and dispatch didn't realize the load required one. We lost that entire day that time because they had us sit and wait so they could make arrangement for the load to be loaded on our truck anyway. But they were unable to, then they asked us to sit at that company so they could find us a load from there. We sat there for 3 hours waiting with no load. We finally called them and told them we had to leave and go to a truck stop which was in another city. So we have seen these mess ups before with our carrier and expected the same kind of thing.

We finally get in touch with dispatch after 45 minutes of waiting for them to call us. We inform them of the lift gate requirement and that load is going to another state, NJ instead of PA and that the new address is another 60 miles further than original milage quoted for first destination..

We are told not to move to wait and they will find out what is going on. About 25 minutes later, we are called back and told that the load is correct but it is going to the address that we were given and another truck will be taking the load to the destination on the Bill of Lading. We are relieve everything is figured out. Now we are raising our legs on the truck box and getting readdy to pull out. Dispatch calls us back and says don't move the shipper is putting more on the truck. The other two rference numbers were supposed to loaded along with the one we were given. We go back into the shipper and he says to us, I have what you need. He was just informed also that it was all supposed to go together.

So after a total of 7 hours, two of which we were early, the load is loaded on our truck and we able to drive away with it.

We were frustrated but I wasn't leaving until I knew what was going on. We used the time to sleep and catch up with EO. We still don't understand what took sooooooo long to get a reference number for the loads. We dropped the loads this morning as required. We were given an extra hour for delivery time. But we still were here an hour ahead of the original delivery time only to find out that the receiving freight company didn't even open until the later delivery time. So we slept in their parking lot until they opened for 2 hours.

Gotta love the communication, in this business, but gotta do what you gotta do to get paid. If you don't run a load you don't get paid.

We will not be paid detention time, I already know this.

 

[Moot]

I guess it comes down to this, either you are in business for yourself or you are an employee.

Or you are leased to a carrier as an independent contractor and should read and understand your contract.

I understand your point Moot and agree that the customer is one who can cancel the run but I can tell you so can the carrier.

Sure the carrier can cancel the load and so can the O/O but neither should expect any compensation if it violates the terms of the carriers tariff with the customer or the O/O's contract with the carrier.

Time is money.

Yes it is. Time and money are also abstract concepts used to keep score and um, like keep the proletariat down, dude. Totally bogus and unfair.

...leaving them hanging or ordering them to wait is wrong.

Read and understand your contract! Mine states I must wait 2 hours after the scheduled pick up time before I can collect detention pay.

 

[greg334]

Time and money are also abstract concepts used to keep score and um, like keep the proletariat down, dude. Totally bogus and unfair.

You are so right

 

[RonJonCMC]

In my humble opinion, if you do not have alot of patience in this business, you will not suceed. Find something to occupy your detention time. I find that the wait is only half as bad when I'm getting paid to eat lunch, take a nap, read a book, surf the web, you get the picture. In the words of my old Navy buddy, Chief Bayot "Flexibilty is the key to success"

 

[bobwg]

Well see here is an issue, I am going to assume that there is a problem with loading the van in the first place for both runs, the second one does state that but the first is not clear about it.

Maybe as mentioned by Moose (I think) there is a problem with getting a forklift on the ground to load the van but the first statement made that I formed my assumption from is this ...

My assumption is further reinforced by this statement ...

All things considers - the driver was on time, the driver had a full van available for the load and the driver was not stupid are all given in this scenario.

SO here is the thing

First the load should have been a wash when the van got there and there was no way to load it. If the customer insisted on the van waiting, they pay for that van to sit there even if there is a start of detention time of 2 hours because they or the person who booked the load with the customer didn't ensure that the load could be loaded in a reasonable time frame on to a van or even the load wasn't meant for a van in the first place because the customer was buying blind space at the cheapest rate.

Second the driver, being independent should have been brought into the conversation by a four way call with the customer, dispatch and the dock people. He is part of the chain and needs to be in on the decisions, not just told to sit and wait. He is a business entity, entitled to that - he is not an employee nor dispatch owns that capacity.

Third the driver is at fault for not communicating that he decided to leave because he deemed the run a dry run based on the problems at the dock getting his van loaded - it is another assumption because we didn't get details of why they could not load the van. Nevertheless, this is actually a minor point, not a big deal.

SO ...

On one hand the driver is at fault for leaving the load and not communicating that but again if it is a case where there was a delay due to not loading the van because of physical difficulties on the shippers part, he should have refused the load on arrival.

On the other hand, dispatch dropped the ball by not communicating with the driver and pushing the customer for compensation or at the very least communicating directly with the shipper while the driver is on the phone.

Both cases I would say, yes the driver should be compensated because;

• Dispatch didn't communicate well when the load was booked
• Dispatch didn't communicate directly with the shipper and the driver at the same time
• Dispatch didn't charge the customer for the detent time on a load that could not be put on a van in the first place
• Dispatch didn't seem to trust the driver to listen to his take on the situation nor allowed him to decide whether or not it was going to go

Sorry to go against the grain on this one but many of you don't see the issues I see.

Sorry Greg you say dispatch didnt communicate maybe true? but the driver also refuses to communicate when he chooses to leave and abandon the load with out calling dispatch to let them know he is leaving the shipper and then dispatch did call the driver and say the load is confirmed a go but driver refuses to go back to the shipper for the load so dispatch has to call another carrier to cover the load my days in the military I learn one thing CYA cover your own azz do not do things like leave a shipper without confirming with shipper and dispatch. so driver is owed nothing zero natta

 

[Moot]

In the words of my old Navy buddy, Chief Bayot "Flexibilty is the key to success"

Was Chief Bayot a contortionist on a submarine?

 

[greg334]

Actually Bob, I mentioned that but the thing, even though Moot is right about the contract thingy, it is the communications from the start that went from the dispatcher to the customer to the shipper and back, no where was the driver in any of it. His frustration and his time should be taken into account.

Even though the contract may say 2 hours of detention time, I feel it is unrealistic to leave the driver hanging while the shipper has the actual problem with loading the van, not the customer or carrier. Dispatch should have insisted on having the driver involved, avoiding two problems, a chance for misinformation and actual involvement to lessen the frustration of the driver. The driver is the eyes and ears of dispatch at this point, not the customer and a lot of dispatchers don't get that.

I am going to go right back to my point - either you get treated as a business person equal to the customer or you are treated like an employee. Moot has a great counter point to that but even with a contract, there are expectations of performance on the carriers part, one of them is communications. The problem is many don't seem to understand that the carrier depends on you, the driver/owner, to provide them the capacity to operate and dispatch at a lot of these companies think they are the ones who call the shots and are controlling everything.

 

[Moot]

Your carrier may call you a BCO, PBO, Partner, BMOC or good buddy but you are still just a truck driver. The paying customer, shipper, carrier and 3PL don't care about your time until it starts to cost one or all of them money. If your contract's detention time doesn't kick in until after two hours, suck it up and wait it out.

I had a similar problem my very first week with Panther. I left the shipper, who was closed for the weekend because I was tired of explaining to a moron Saturday morning dispatcher what the situation was and how my contract read. I wasn't planning on staying with Panther so I really didn't care.

 

[greg334]

I wasn't looking at the first two hours as the problem. After that it was. I thought that it was longer than two hours but I guess re-reading the passage, it wasn't.

Oh well, not a biggie to me, the point is still communications can and often the issue.

 

[bobwg]

I wasn't looking at the first two hours as the problem. After that it was. I thought that it was longer than two hours but I guess re-reading the passage, it wasn't.

Oh well, not a biggie to me, the point is still communications can and often the issue.

Gregg I agree with you about dispatch communication being a problem but when the driver makes the choice to leave and not communicate to the shipper and dispatch that he is leaving then he is cutting is own throat again driver made fatal choice of not telling dispatch and shipper that he was leaving so again he is out no money is not owed anything zero

 

[Moot]

Oh well, not a biggie to me, the point is still communications can and often the issue.

I agree! More precisely, lack of communications is often the issue.

 

[Jefferson3000]

Sounds pretty simple to me. The driver shows up and finds that he cannot be immediately load, eg. snow covered parking lot, ice on the ramp so the fork driver can't come out and van can't back up. Driver is told to hang on, while the customer is contacted about this. Driver decides to wait somewhere else of the premises. If that means he sits at his home nearby, the Piggly Wiggly or 7-11 down the street, then that's up to him. However, when he is under contract to represent the carrier and abandons the load by not wanting to return, then he is in violation of his contract.

Hey Charles. You wanna tell everyone how long of a load this bonehead turned back on you?

 

[Turtle]

Was Chief Bayot a contortionist on a submarine?

Or a porn star?

 

[Vinnie T]

Driver decides to wait somewhere else of the premises. If that means he sits at his home nearby, the Piggly Wiggly or 7-11 down the street, then that's up to him.

I disagree with that. Any way to get out of paying for something some of these outfits will do it. A driver should never leave a shipper unless released by the customer once they verify the load is not a go. Also it is essential to have that driver there and an open line of communication with the shipper and yous dispatch.

Anyway, I would terminate that jackhole in a heartbeat! Charles you did everything correct IMO, that driver is a loose cannon!

 

[Moot]

A driver should never leave a shipper unless released by the customer once they verify the load is not a go.

I personally would wait until being released by my carrier and have the dry run info come across on the Q.C. if I wanted to get paid.