Westboro Baptist plans to protest in Joplin

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I guess I'm as stupid and scary as the citizens of Brandon then because I love what they did and hope that the people in Joplin are able to stop them too. I actually wish they could figure out a way to stomp their butts in the ground without getting into a lawsuit, but I doubt than can happen :D
Interesting.... so you don't really believe in free speech, then. :(


On the bright side... you can quit guessing now. :rolleyes:
 

Rocketman

Veteran Expediter
Interesting.... so you don't really believe in free speech, then. :(
On the bright side... you can quit guessing now. :rolleyes:

yes...you are correct...actually I stopped guessing a long time ago. Probably about the time you started laying down to let people like this walk across your yellow back :D
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
yes...you are correct...actually I stopped guessing a long time ago. Probably about the time you started laying down to let people like this walk across your yellow back :D
Isn't is fortunate for you, that you have the right to post what you just posted, without having me stomp your butt into the ground?
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
It was Brandon, MS, in Rankin County.

You may be right.

But here's one thing that deserves consideration in all this, and it's something far too many people want to dismiss: Free speech extends precisely as far as the willingness to allow and defend speech which you do not agree with. And not to put too fine a point on it, but how can those who complain about the abuse of power from government and police feel good, even satisfied, over the actions of city and county government and law enforcement officials in Brandon, MS? It's outrageous.

Keep in mind that there is a difference between public and private action. The first amendment restriction against interference with the freedom of speech is only a prohibition against government. The constitution continually refers to the state and the people as separate groups, so there is no prohibition on the people shouting down unpopular groups, only that the government can not do so.

while it is true that government agents i.e the police shouldn't run interference for the people opposing WBC, the same can't be said for the tow truck driver. he's a private citizen and can largely do as he pleases. There may, of course, be contractual issues there, but that's not something that can be resolved immediately.

While I do denounce the false arrest tactics, that doesn't mean I also don't find them amusing, given the circumstances. hasn't there been times when your son did something wrong and you were simultaneously angry and amused at what he had done? sure, you punished him, but then later you told your friends about it and kind of chuckled at his audacity.

( typos due to transcription software inaccuracies)
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
These "people" are vile, evil creatures. They spread hatred. They are no different from the "Klan" or "Black Panthers".
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
AM:Freedom of speech is the right of every citizen. It's just a lot of noble words, though, if we deny it when we don't agree with [or want to hear] the message.

This is when we get tested on whether we mean what we say, and those who resort to lawbreaking to silence the hateful sounds have failed the test.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Evil people and movements often become violent. It would not surprise me that this bunch does one day.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Keep in mind that there is a difference between public and private action. The first amendment restriction against interference with the freedom of speech is only a prohibition against government.
Golly, I had no idea. Thanks for that. <snort>

But it should also be kept in mind that what happened in Brandon was a publicly acknowledged conspiracy between the public and private citizens of Rankin County.

while it is true that government agents i.e the police shouldn't run interference for the people opposing WBC, the same can't be said for the tow truck driver. he's a private citizen and can largely do as he pleases. There may, of course, be contractual issues there, but that's not something that can be resolved immediately.
The same can be said of the tow truck driver, actually, if he was a part of the conspiracy. The parking of the pickup trucks and cars in the motel parking lot to block those with Kansas license plates was a move orchestrated by elected officials of Rankin County, including the County Sheriff, the Mayor and the County Judge. It's the same exact tactics that were used during the Civil Rights conflicts down there. Exactly the same. The police may or may not have actually called any tow trucks, and if they did, you can bet the tow truck drivers are the same good ol' boys as the Sheriff and his deputies.

While I do denounce the false arrest tactics, that doesn't mean I also don't find them amusing, given the circumstances.
What circumstances? You mean the circumstances of you not agreeing with what they have to say, so with a wink and a nod and a giddy little chuckle you let an unabashed abuse of power slide because you find it amusing? What if the shoe was on the other foot. I find it hard to believe that you would find it amusing if you were falsely arrested no matter what the circumstances, but especially if it were because they didn't agree with what you have to say.

hasn't there been times when your son did something wrong and you were simultaneously angry and amused at what he had done? sure, you punished him, but then later you told your friends about it and kind of chuckled at his audacity.
I understand what you're saying, but a government really doesn't have the right to be audacious in their misuse and abuse of power, even when, or perhaps especially when, you condone it. Where do you draw the line on a slippery slope? Like I said, free speech extends precisely as far as the willingness to allow and defend speech which you do not agree with. If can't do that, then you don't have free speech yourself, and if you conspire with the government to suppress the free speech of others though intimidation and force, then it's something else entirely.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
What happened in Nazi Germany started out only as speech. At some point, evil must be confronted. If allowed to flower it will overwhelm.

At some point the evil will become violent. Maybe not this group, but one like it.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
What happened in Nazi Germany started out only as speech. At some point, evil must be confronted. If allowed to flower it will overwhelm.
Didn't Hilter say nearly the very same thing?
At some point the evil will become violent. Maybe not this group, but one like it.
Please tell me you aren't advocating the suppression of Westboro's free speech using that rationale. Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it. Today it's free speech, tomorrow it's thought crimes about what might happen.

Only the DOT can do that. :D
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Didn't Hilter say nearly the very same thing?
Please tell me you aren't advocating the suppression of Westboro's free speech using that rationale. Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it. Today it's free speech, tomorrow it's thought crimes about what might happen.

Only the DOT can do that. :D


Nope, I am NOT the DOT!!

All I said was that evil must be confronted to keep it in it's place. Sooner or later that bunch, or others like it will become violent. They preach hatred, that is the logical next step for them. When they move on to violence they will need to be stopped. Just like the "Klan" and the "Panthers".

We already have "though crimes".
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I doubt very seriously that they'll will resort to violence. The whole modus operandi of Phelps is to provoke others into violence and other illegal activity, and then suing in civil court as redress. They have a tidy little revenue stream of won court cases.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
AM:Freedom of speech is the right of every citizen. It's just a lot of noble words, though, if we deny it when we don't agree with [or want to hear] the message.

This is when we get tested on whether we mean what we say, and those who resort to lawbreaking to silence the hateful sounds have failed the test.


Yes, the right of every citizen to be free from governmental restriction on his speech. But private citizens are under no such restriction to allow someone to speak without opposition.

This forum, for example, is run by a private group, and they can delete posts, disable your login credentials, ban you, etc.

It's very much like the "innocent until proven guilty" principle. People confuse that with a restriction on the thoughts and beliefs of other individuals. In the past, I'd say something to the effect that OJ is guilty of murder, or that Michael Jackson was a child molester, and someone (usually but not always a woman who lets her emotions dictate her beliefs rather than logic and intellect) would say, "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!" The implication being that I can't say that because they weren't convicted of those crimes in a court of law. But, I point out, that principle only means that society can't LOCK THEM UP our otherwise penalize them criminally. It's not any restriction on what individuals believe.

So, freedom of speech, sure; gummint can't prevent them from having their say. But that doesn't mean private individuals have to step aside for them.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I doubt very seriously that they'll will resort to violence. The whole modus operandi of Phelps is to provoke others into violence and other illegal activity, and then suing in civil court as redress. They have a tidy little revenue stream of won court cases.

As I said, maybe not this bunch, but one like it one day. Evil ALWAYS resorts to violence. Hitler did, Stalin did, the Klan did, the Panthers did. Sooner or later, it will happen.
 

Rocketman

Veteran Expediter
I doubt very seriously that they'll will resort to violence. The whole modus operandi of Phelps is to provoke others into violence and other illegal activity, and then suing in civil court as redress. They have a tidy little revenue stream of won court cases.

I am glad you said that. I had a post typed saying the same thing but since it seems you could be a possible member of their association, I decided not to take a chance on being in a lawsuit. But, you said it best :)

But that doesn't mean private individuals have to step aside for them.

This is exactly my entire point.

My larger point is that sooner or later, these people will confront the wrong people and it could be tomorrow given the situation...and no it won't bother me a bit. In fact, I'll celebrate it just the same as they celebrate the death of soldiers.

I don't care for political debates which is why I NEVER even look at this forum, but this did catch my eye. I won't make that mistake again.

Carry on.... try not to squeal if any of the ladies walking on your back is wearing heals :D
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
AM: as Turtle pointed out, the WBC's goal is to provoke people into breaking the laws, whereupon they [WBC] can sue them. And they're pretty successful at it, so far, because THEY follow the laws.
If you said Micheal Jackson is a child molester, I'd probably point out the laws against slander, because of course you know about the presumption of innocence.
Like our freedoms, laws only work when we know what they are, and stay within the lines.

 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yes, the right of every citizen to be free from governmental restriction on his speech. But private citizens are under no such restriction to allow someone to speak without opposition.
Without opposition, true enough. But even individual citizens are restricted from the oppression of free speech if doing so violates the civil rights of others.

This forum, for example, is run by a private group, and they can delete posts, disable your login credentials, ban you, etc.
But the scope of their censoring power is only within the servers of this site. They cannot extend that to anything else.

It's very much like the "innocent until proven guilty" principle. People confuse that with a restriction on the thoughts and beliefs of other individuals. In the past, I'd say something to the effect that OJ is guilty of murder, or that Michael Jackson was a child molester, and someone (usually but not always a woman who lets her emotions dictate her beliefs rather than logic and intellect) would say, "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!" The implication being that I can't say that because they weren't convicted of those crimes in a court of law. But, I point out, that principle only means that society can't LOCK THEM UP our otherwise penalize them criminally. It's not any restriction on what individuals believe.

So, freedom of speech, sure; gummint can't prevent them from having their say. But that doesn't mean private individuals have to step aside for them.
But the two examples you just cited above say the opposite, that private citizens must step aside and allow you to voice your opinion. By not stepping aside, they are infringing on your rights and liberties.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I am glad you said that. I had a post typed saying the same thing but since it seems you could be a possible member of their association, I decided not to take a chance on being in a lawsuit. But, you said it best :)
Do you want to discuss the issues, or do you want to take sophomoric pot-shots at me because I don't agree with what you are saying?

I don't care for political debates which is why I NEVER even look at this forum, but this did catch my eye. I won't make that mistake again.
That's good, considering how bad you are at it.

Carry on.... try not to squeal if any of the ladies walking on your back is wearing heals :D
I hope your gas can blows up. So there. :D
 
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