We need more gun control

[simon says]

Not the answer! I have a right to bear arms and defend my family. However, as long as cops have shoeboxes full of confiscated handguns in their closets they can drop to frame someone, or sell to anyone to make some side money, we will have plenty of guns here. As long as there is a market for illegal guns, we will have them. Look anywhere in the world, and if there is tyranny, the opposing forces will procure the weapons to defend themselves.
The real tragedy about Va. Tech, is how the guy shoots two, and the cops and university does nothing except send out an e-mail just minutes before the big killing spree starts.

Lastly,as Malcolm X said (and I think an analogy that merits some thought) " the chickens have come home to roost". If unwonton violence from sports, to media, to video games, TV, etc. et al. is what you sow, then that is what you will reap! There is also just a little thing called parental control- not my main point, but back in the day, you had to work for what you got and you were taught politeness, manners, and perhaps get your butt slapped more than once.

 

[greg334]

OVM,
I understand what you are saying but here are a couple things.

Go find a yard stick (or a meter stick or anything around 1 meter long) and put yourself in a hallway or in the entrance of the bathroom, where ever you can be in a narrow area and than try to move that yard stick around across your chest.

Chances are you can do it without difficulty.

Now try this in the dark, no light at all and see what happens.

Most likely you can but you will hit the walls a couple times

Then think about if someone is coming after you in the dark when you step out of the bathroom.

Can you realistically point a rifle or shotgun at someone in that short of time?

Chances are you will not be able to bring up the yard stick fast enough to point it in the right direction.

If you say yes you can, you have never had to deal with the situation where you needed to react very fast to save your life.

The other thing that you don’t know a thing about is the dynamics of the rifle or even a shotgun. I can tell you that a round from a 223, 308 or even a 30-30 will go through walls and doors without any problem, even a 22 will go through most walls (I know, I tried different calibers to see what would happen). A shotgun, 20 to 12 gauge using a slug will do about the same. On the other hand if you have a 9 mm, 38 or even a 32, the chances are they will travel through a wall but be stopped by a stud, switch box or even a nail. Does it matter? Yes when you shot without being able to determine what is behind that wall or where your neighbor is in his house; would you like to use a rifle?

See OVM, the real issue is not a matter of a hand gun opposed to a rifle but it is the problem that we have all over that a weapon is a weapon and it needs to be treated as such.

We have a societal problem that goes way beyond hand gun/rifle issues; we have serious problems with education, culture and other issues here in the US and in Canada and other places. A weapon is a weapon, gun, knife, frisby – all weapons.

I forgot to mention something important one talk show host (liberal) who has pointed out that there is a problem that really with the involvement of people when something happens. There is a term for this bystander apathy. This is not a US thing but happens all over. There was a case (one of the worst known) that happened in Toronto, I think that is in Canada. Well apparently there was a gang of kids who targeted a 16 year old kid and stabbed him to death in a park in broad daylight with about 40 people watching. Not one person picked up their cell phone and called the police. Amazing, isn’t it?

 

[greg334]

Oh OVM, just wondering what your take is on something that happened in a place where there is a very strict gun control laws.

"The mayor of the Japanese city of Nagasaki was shot and critically wounded on Tuesday, and police have arrested a member of a criminal syndicate as a suspect, officials said.

Itcho Ito, 61, seeking re-election for a fourth term in Sunday's election, was shot by a man in front of his campaign office just before 8:00 p.m. (1100 GMT), a city official said.

Ito was taken to hospital by ambulance after being shot more than once in the back, Nagasaki police said, adding the mayor was undergoing an operation.

The police told a news conference they had arrested Tetsuya Shiroo, 59, a senior member of gang affiliated with Japan's largest crime syndicate, the Yamaguchi Gumi, on suspicion of attempted murder, and confiscated a revolver he had with him."

Wonder if you take the hand guns away from people, the only people who would have them are the criminals and the cops. We are trying to disarm the cops, so that will leave who?

 

[LDB]

>No..Law enforcement would be the only ones with handguns.
>The good citzentry would have thier rifles for protection of
>home and family.
>
>IF people could be trained professionals and not panic
>Maybe, just maybe handguns would be acceptable BUT this I
>think is unattainable.

ig·no·rance –noun
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

OVM, I presume you speak from ignorance just as virtually all who are against guns do. If not, then you are one of the minority who have the agenda of disarming the citizenry to convert them to subjects.

Comparing police involved shootings to CHL holder shootings, the police shoot the wrong person or miss and hit innocents 5 times as often as trained citizens. Police firearms training and follow up is a fraction of what serious CHL holders go through by choice not by requirement. It has already been discussed how your long gun theory fails totally in the real world.

You didn't respond to my query about your belief that things which a fraction of a percent of users abuse should be totally banned. You aren't a hypocrite and do believe in the same ban on alcohol to all but police as you do handguns? Certainly we must apply the same logic to a substance that harms more annually than guns. You agree I'm sure. Oh, I almost forgot, far more children are killed annually by drunk drivers. Since they use both alcohol and vehicles you must surrender your van as must all private citizens. We'll let the police keep vehicles to go with their alcohol and guns. You still agree I know because you are the one being logical and saying we get rid of the objects people abuse. I applaud the common sense to handle problems by reacting to objects rather than responding to human criminal actions.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA Life Member 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[greg334]

Hey Leo,

There is a bigger issue here than gun control.

When is it alright that a student from a foreign country allowed to buy a firearm? For that matter why do we allow non-citizens to but any fire arm?

I am not going to preach a liberal line even though some may think I am, but I am all for a system that allows checks for purchses and conected throughout the country. There is no excuse I can find for every gun dealer and retail store to have access to a system that can confirm that the person is either a foreigner or a felon.

Beside that I loved the comment from one of the students; maybe we should outlaw foriegn students.

 

[LDB]

No gun sales to anyone who isn't a U.S. citizen is a given. No foreign students is certainly a far better idea than any gun control will ever be.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA Life Member 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[jaminjim]

I don't see anything wrong with a LEGAL foreigner being allowed to own a gun. Also think what would happen at half the pawn shops, they would have to go out of business.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

My thinking isn't written in stone and I have a somewhat fluid mind.
Some of my friends in South Dakota have been trying to get me out and shoot a rifle and another has a 357 sittin on the hump of his pickup wanting me too learn to use that too!! And I have to admit to more then a passing curiousity towards guns. You guys may win me over yet!!*LOL*
I have been conditioned to dislike guns from my past 56 years so give me some time to work this out!!
Sorry Leo for my appeared ignorance and to you too greg!! No offense meant.

 

[LDB]

OVM, I hope you didn't take my usage of ignorance as an insult because that wasn't the intent at all. Being ignorant of something isn't a negative, it's just a lack of information or education on a particular subject. I'd have made a 99% bet that you were brought up in a misinformed environment that said guns are evil. That is the typical situation with most liberals. They have no personal experience and erroneously blame objects instead of people. I'm no incredible orator. Greg does better than I do, partly I think because he has the patience to go into significant detail about things and I don't have the patience. Having passed testing as an instructor for Texas CHL training I can tell you without reserve or question that armed citizens are the best deterrent and defense there is. As a general rule I'd much rather have them backing me than police officers.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA Life Member 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[greg334]

OVM, Hey I love other points of veiw.

But to tell you something, it is the person who leave the weapon out in the open (for example sitting on the floor of the car) that is more dangerous to me than the guy who carries it hidden. There needs to be a respect for the tool in order for no one to hurt anyone who is innocient.

For me carrying a weapon is a responsiblity, mainly because of my up bringing and training. I had a job where I had to carry a side arm to protect myself and my work. Beside the fact that I had to deal with idiot autoworkers who carried when they were at the bar getting drunk, really got to me.

 

[Jayman]

simon says: "If unwonton violence from sports, to media, to video games, TV, etc. et al. is what you sow, then that is what you will reap! There is also just a little thing called parental control- not my main point, but back in the day, you had to work for what you got and you were taught politeness, manners, and perhaps get your butt slapped more than once."

Good point. The lack of leadership in the home these days, teachers having control and ability to punish kids in school, and the stuff you mentioned has and is having a disasterous effect on our culture. This isnt new, as you all know. Kids not getting good grades. Kids inability to follow and respect leaders when they get on the job. Then, some go nuts and do stupid stuff that takes the lives of others.

 

[ACE]

OVM,
The only right way is the U.S.A. way.
When you say American you may include all the North,Central and South American countries.

 

[arkjarhead]

all i have to say is when the government decides they want to take my guns they'll have to pry them from my cold dead fingers. in my family guns have been passed down thru generations. if criminals can't buy guns leagaly they will get them illegaly. pus i know quiet a few people who deer hunt with revolers. makes it a little harder. plus a rifle isn't a good home defense weapon. a handgun is better in the close and tight situations. with a handgun i can easily send five rounds at the person who is trying to harm my family before you can fire a round from your rifle.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I have just been informed by the American Embassy that as of April the 12th I am now a legal resident of the United States of America!! whoooppee am now a taxpayer!!!

 

[greg334]

OVM,
ahh.... you were always a tax payer the second you came here. ;-)

Oh yea.. congrats and thanks for doing it legally.

But anyway......

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Just heard last night that since Australia banned guns in the 80s, armed robbery has gone up 57%. And other crimes have gone up signifigantly as well.

England has the distinction of being the most crime-ridden country in the EU. They outlawed guns years ago. Unfortunately the criminals haven't gotten that message.

-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Thank Greg I am doing my homework on this gun thingee...

http://www.nrapublications.org/armed citizen/Index.asp


Ace...shesh..wrong wrong wrong!

 

[greg334]

Actually England had only 48 hand gun related deaths.

England led the world on a per capita basis in assualts and stabbings but not murder for years. They have been surpassed by South Africa, which now accroding to a bunch of studies has more unreported crime than any country in history. I know a lot of people who fled SA, most of them are black not Afrikaan.

Paris is not far behind, they are still having riots and the police don't go in some areas that are considered too dangerous for them. Talk about a bunch of idiots.

The Swiss has had a serious problem with assualts, robberies and stabbings because of legalized drug use within certain locations and the dismantaling of their national defense system.

Milan is another city that is pretty bad with Rome not far behind, there is talk about a Mussolini type of crime reduction program to lower crime.

It is amazing that the EU has wieghed in on our gun control issues but what is more amazing is Mexico has stated that the only reason that they have a crime is our open access to guns here. Ok Mexico you forget that a lot of the weapons used by the drug related crime bosses are imported through the EU, Cuba and Africa.

Oh for you who don't believe me, we are on the murder scale 35th at 5.9 per 100,000 people behind South Africa which is at 47 per 100,000. We are behind all of the former soviet union, most of the carribian countries, half of South America and Mexico (13 per 100,000).

This raises one more point, since the gun control act of 1968, have we been safer?

 

[Pilgrim]

Coming full circle on this thread, keep in mind that gun control was actually in place at Va. Tech. It is illegal for anyone other than law enforcement personnel to possess firearms of any kind on the VT campus.

 

[Aviator]

>Coming full circle on this thread, keep in mind that gun
>control was actually in place at Va. Tech. It is illegal for
>anyone other than law enforcement personnel to possess
>firearms of any kind on the VT campus.

From January 31, 2006:

"House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia,
Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage,
the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

....

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was
defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the
General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students,
faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."



I wonder how Mr. Hincker feels now? I wonder if he had might have quickly changed his position if he had been in one of the rooms the gunman entered? Had just one or so students of teachers at that school been approved for a Carry permit, no telling how many students would have been saved. I have my carry permits for several states. I don't carry all that much, probably not as much as I should. It is often a pain in the #####, but I would rather have it an not need it, than need it an NOT have it.

People ask me why I sometimes carry a pistol, my answer would be for times just like this. You can never tell when some crazed nut job will bust into a place where you are and start shooting people. I for one would like the odds evened.

And for those of you who think gun control will solve this problem, you are dead wrong. Someone who is intent on breaking laws and killing people, is not gonna worry about breaking one more insignificant law about not having a gun in the first place.

Aviator