Watch that freedom of speech

[Turtle]

Let's use this example:

Was it Christians who burned witches during the witch hunts of late 1600 AD?

Beginning with the Constitutio Criminalis Carolina decree in 1532, yes.

And, do you know why born again Christians are privy to what this verse means?

[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yes I do, although I do have a problem with the arrogant use of the word "privy" as even amongst born again Christians there are many different interpretations of the marks of genuineness, of what exactly is and is not that metaphorical fruit. And every one of them believe they have it right.

 

[muttly]

Like I said, logic and common sense says otherwise. Maybe not with New Zealand, as they had only been using he scopes for a few weeks before the publicity hit, so it is possible that in New Zealand that no one in those few weeks bothered to look at the scopes. But in the case of the US over the course of 30 years, it stretches all credulity to believe that the military didn't notice it until 2010 and that millions of people are all that unobservant, because they weren't.

Even I've know about it for more than 20 years. My cousin, who is is a colonel in the Army, has spoken about it more than once over the years, and first voiced the concern not too long before the invasion of Afghanistan, of which he was a part of the first wave. He doesn't have a problem with the Bible verses per se (he's devoutly Christian), only that they are on rifle scopes that could get a soldier killed if that solder and his rifle were captured by Islamic extremists, who will record the serial numbers of every serialize part of the rifle, and they'll see the Bible reference.

My point was that the inscriptians were around for 30 years, long before Bush's supposed war on muslims.

 

[Turtle]

An overwhelming segment of the current US military personnel would identify themselves as being of the Christian tradition.

I would not disagree with that at all, especially the current military (since the end of the draft, where most of the volunteers have come from conservative regions of the country).

 

[muttly]

Well, yeah, of course he said that. He had to. If he had said otherwise as the President, it would have been a political disaster on a global scale. He also said, when he wasn't in the public eye, that “Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East…. The biblical prophecies are being fulfilled…. This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people’s enemies before a New Age begins.”

. So on one hand Bush gets lambasted for saying the word Crusade.(Against muslims)and the other is dismissed for saying 'Islam is peace'. Both said at the same time.

 

[Maverick]

Beginning with the Constitutio Criminalis Carolina decree in 1532, yes.

Good then. Let's turn to our Bibles or concordance and find the verse, or implication, that born again Christians and followers of Jesus Christ are to seek out, hunt down, and prosocute witches. Since I know it's not there....perhaps you can produce it for us?

Yes I do, although I do have a problem with the arrogant use of the word "privy" as even amongst born again Christians there are many different interpretations of the marks of genuineness, of what exactly is and is not that metaphorical fruit. And every one of them believe they have it right.

Wrong. God did not place dual meanings on principled following of His word. The verse is very plain and simple to read. Tell us how many meanings can come from it?

Point being........people can say, do, and claim all they want. Christ specifically stated that many of them are wrong. Your argument goes against this, by claiming ALL are wrong due to different understanding. How can that be?

Or can it be, you and others, do not know the difference....in the hopes of discrediting the whole thing? I'm here to tell you......Jr was NOT a born again Christian. Nor are the idiots who paint things on tanks. etc

 

[Turtle]

My point was that the inscriptians were around for 30 years, long before Bush's supposed war on muslims.

I didn't mean to imply that those inscriptions were put there specifically for Bush.

I meant to imply that the inscriptions, and the other things, clearly indicate that our military is largely a Christian military, in body and spirit. The Bible both directly and indirectly address serving in the military as being a good thing, that the civic duty which soldiers perform is condoned and respected by God. So if men are fighting for their country, that's one thing, but if you can get them to believe they are also fighting for God and everything good, the more better.

It's one of the more unseemly things that get done in God's name. More people have been killed in God's name than for any other reason.

The Officers' Christian Fellowship is the largest non-governmental group of US military officers with a surprisingly large percentage of high ranking commanders. Their stated identity is, "Christian officers exercising biblical leadership ro raise up a godly military." And their stated visionary purpose is, "To be a dynamic community of Christian military leaders, integrating faith and profession, serving with a passion for God and a calling to the military."

People can say that Christianity isn't driving the US Armed Forces, but they're kidding themselves when they do.

 

[Turtle]

. So on one hand Bush gets lambasted for saying the word Crusade.(Against muslims)and the other is dismissed for saying 'Islam is peace'. Both said at the same time.

One of them is a lie. And based on his other statements and actions, it's easy to tell which one he's not all that sold on.

 

[layoutshooter]

Trijicon puts bible references on ALL of their sights, military or civilian. They agreed to stop putting them on military s in 2010. An ABC article was incorrect when it stated that Trijicon was place the references in the serial numbers. The serial numbers have no references in them and they located in two places on the sight, in places away from the area where the references are located.

References are sight specific. Example: ACOG4X32JN8:12

That particular sight is a 4X sight without battery operated holograph. It is calibrated for the 62GR FMJ round which is standard issue for the US Military

"On 22 January 2010, Trijicon announced it would stop the practice of engraving Biblical references on products sold to the government. It also offered to provide modification kits for the purpose of removing such engravings on sights already produced and sold to the military. In a statement, the company said it was both "prudent and appropriate" to remove the engravings.[SUP][10][/SUP] Trijicon's consumer products are still engraved with Biblical references in accordance with company tradition.[SUP][11]"


[/SUP]Trijicon biblical verses controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Turtle]

Good then. Let's turn to our Bibles or concordance and find the verse, or implication, that born again Christians and followers of Jesus Christ are to seek out, hunt down, and prosocute witches. Since I know it's not there....perhaps you can produce it for us?

No, I can't produce it for you, because I know it's not in there, either.

Wrong. God did not place dual meanings on principled following of His word. The verse is very plain and simple to read. Tell us how many meanings can come from it?

Well, considering that only plants produce fruit, when you start bringing up all the things for which fruit can be a metaphor, the possible meanings are endless.

Point being........people can say, do, and claim all they want. Christ specifically stated that many of them are wrong. Your argument goes against this, by claiming ALL are wrong due to different understanding. How can that be?

I've never claimed ALL are wrong. I've claimed that not every one of them are right.

Or can it be, you and others, do not know the difference....in the hopes of discrediting the whole thing? I'm here to tell you......Jr was NOT a born again Christian. Nor are the idiots who paint things on tanks. etc

What it they are, and you're wrong?

 

[Maverick]

So if men are fighting for their country, that's one thing, but if you can get them to believe they are also fighting for God and everything good, the more better.

Now you're on to something.

It's one of the more unseemly things that get done in God's name. More people have been killed in God's name than for any other reason.

Or perhaps "under cover" of God's name. Kinda like those witches.

 

[Maverick]

One of them is a lie. And based on his other statements and actions, it's easy to tell which one he's not all that sold on.

Both are a lie....because that's what they do. Remember the ole, and I paraphrase:

OBL is our number one priority.

Months later....

We are not really concerned or care about OBL.

Whatever works to fool the masses at the time.

 

[Maverick]

No, I can't produce it for you, because I know it's not in there, either.

Know your not willing to succeed the point.....but this would seem testimony that these people were NOT following the word of God, therefore, could NOT be considered doing God's work, in any way shape or form. In fact, there is only one other entity, or spirit, they could be considered under. Take a wild guess?

Well, considering that only plants produce fruit, when you start bringing up all the things for which fruit can be a metaphor, the possible meanings are endless.

Fruit in this case means rotten, or fresh.

I've never claimed ALL are wrong. I've claimed that not every one of them are right.

Concede. But how would you know which is which?

 

[Turtle]

Know your not willing to succeed the point.....but this would seem testimony that these people were NOT following the word of God, therefore, could NOT be considered doing God's work, in any way shape or form.

Unless God spoke to them and told them to do it.

In fact, there is only one other entity, or spirit, they could be considered under. Take a wild guess?

So, it's under one or the other? No third option?

Fruit in this case means rotten, or fresh.

It doesn't say that, though. That's an interpretation. Even rotten and fresh can be interpreted to mean different things to different people.

Concede. But how would you know which is which?

You wouldn't. You have to take it on faith. Everybody believes theirs it right, especially the ones who who, without question, that theirs is.

 

[Maverick]

Unless God spoke to them and told them to do it.

I'll say one thing for ya Turtle....you sure can be creative.

So, it's under one or the other? No third option?

With me or against me, is another JR twisted quote. There is only one, or the other.....and it ain't Georgie boys idea of it.

It doesn't say that, though. That's an interpretation. Even rotten and fresh can be interpreted to mean different things to different people.

There is only one thing it means.

Matt.12

[33] Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

You wouldn't. You have to take it on faith. Everybody believes theirs it right, especially the ones who who, without question, that theirs is.

But someone is right.....according to Christ and The Bible. It's not really important for you to know. I post for those who do.

Getting through Manhattan yesterday was difficult enough for now. Be safe!

 

[cheri1122]

Maverick: you post for those who believe they know, but the proof has not been forthcoming. Just as it hasn't for those who believe they know otherwise.

 

[Maverick]

Maverick: you post for those who believe they know, but the proof has not been forthcoming. Just as it hasn't for those who believe they know otherwise.

Cheri

Did Turtle put you up to this? LOL

But really, your argument is not valid. On one hand, you believe there are Christians, but yet deny there are false ones? In that denial, you arbitrarily apply anyone who claims to be.....as being false or misleading?

Put another way.....any person who claims to be a Christian, is not one at all, because it's not been proven? The scriptures clearly state there are those who believe they're saved through grace, but are not.

You, like Turtle, cannot possibly, as unbelievers, know the difference. Your hope is to deny all of them.....to render the whole thing invalid? Scripture clearly defines who the true followers of Christ are, and what they believe. We know who the false teachers are, and why wars are fought. Paul warns born again Christians to not be "puffed up" in their faith. However, true believers certainly know the difference from being born again, and lip service.

Does dispatch think your a good driver? If so, how do they know? Can I sit here as another driver and deny the criteria they base this on? "That Cheri character"....you might think she's a good driver, but without really knowing, I can just state you are not?

As for this supposed Christian military being tossed about......why not explain this while your at it? Do a google search on persecution of Christians around the world....and then check to see what our great Christian Army is doing about it.

Nothing. They will let them be slaughtered and give no aid, because there is nothing Christian about it.

 

[cheri1122]

I never denied the 'false' ones - as a matter of fact, I believe I know a few of them.
What I said is that your claim of knowing has not been proven, and I stand by that. You believe, I agree, but that isn't knowing, by a long shot.
A schizophrenic 'knows' the voices he hears are real, too and cannot be persuaded otherwise.

 

[Maverick]

I never denied the 'false' ones - as a matter of fact, I believe I know a few of them.
What I said is that your claim of knowing has not been proven, and I stand by that. You believe, I agree, but that isn't knowing, by a long shot.
A schizophrenic 'knows' the voices he hears are real, too and cannot be persuaded otherwise.

Gotcha

And your dispatch will never convince me your a good driver. They have no way of knowing this, and I deny it completely. It's never been proven, and they could all be schizo....for all we know.

Be safe Cheri...Indoor plumbing has me signing off for the night. It's been fun as always, and hope you have a great start to the new year.

Turtle to!

 

[RLENT]

Here is tons of data on the ME if you have time to read all of it .

Here, I'll fix it for ya:

"Here is tons of hasbara on Israel and the Palestinians if you have time to read all of it ."

Forums for all and opinions for the masses ...

Ahhh ... no, no ... not really ...

Why do I say that ?

Well, because of what the forum publishes about itself on it's own website:

From the "About Us" page:

IsraelForum.com is a pro-Israeli and pro-American Internet resource dedicated to providing high-level information about Israel and the U.S. It offers linked and original breaking news, analysis, and commentary from seasoned journalists, authors, and leading experts.

In providing a platform for discussion, we endeavor to promote a pro-Israeli and pro-American point of view and to support Israeli and American efforts to achieve peace and security for their citizens.

From the forum section entitled "Forum Policy"

We wanted to repeat some basic guidelines and leave them here for you, for easy reference ...

Also, please keep in mind the purpose of this forum, as stated in our About Us page. We will not provide a platform for publishing blatant anti-Israeli propaganda.

While I did not do an extensive review of all the forum topics or threads, what I did see appeared to be extremely pro-Israel, pro-Zionist and very rightwing.

In fact, I found no evidence whatsoever that there was any real debate or dialog going on between people of opposing pro-Israel and con-Israel points of view. There may well be some there ... somewhere ... but I sure didn't find it ...

Further, I see much presented as fact, which I personally know to be demonstrably false ...

I suspect - based on observations of many, many pro-Zionist and Israel Firster attempts to limit the discussion and discourse - that the above (highlighted in bold), roughly translated, is: "If we peg you as being strongly critical of Israel or having a non pro-Israel bent and position, you'll be banned ..."

Part of the reason that I suspect that to be the case, is there some discussion out there in the ether of bannings at JBlog Central - which is a Jewish blog aggregator hosted by IsraelForum(dot)com. One rather prominent one was the banning of Richard Silverstein's Tikun Olam blog (Tikun Olam = repairing [or mending] the world) which I read fairly regularly.

To understand who Richard actually is here's a little from the "About" page on Tikun Olam:

I’ve been writing Tikun Olam, one of the earliest liberal Jewish blogs, since February, 2003. It focuses on exposing the excesses of the Israeli national security state.

I also created the Israel Palestine Forum, a discussion forum for progressives about the I-P conflict. Israel Palestine Blogs aggregates 50 peace blogs writing about the conflict. I wrote a chapter for the Independent Jewish Voices essay collection, A Time to Speak Out. I’m a regular contributor to Truthout and contributed to Haaretz, Christian Science Monitor, Jewish Forward, Los Angeles Times, Comment Is Free and Al Jazeera English. My work has also been in the Seattle Times, American Conservative Magazine, Beliefnet and Tikkun Magazine. I’ve done several segments for Al Jazeera TV’s Listening Post and Israel’s Channel 10 Tzinor Layla news program. The NY Times featured my reporting about the Shamai Leibowitz FBI tapes on its front page.

I attended Jewish Theological Seminary and Columbia University, earning a BA and Bachelor of Hebrew Literature. I have an MA in Comparative Literature from UCLA and studied toward a PhD at UC Berkeley. My languages were Hebrew and Yiddish. I spent an undergraduate and graduate year studying Hebrew literature at the Hebrew University and co-founded of the Bay Area Jewish Music Festival.

On the matter of censorship and limiting the discussion on the Israel-Palestine issue at JBlog specifically - which is hosted by IsraelForum(dot)com - the following is a snippet from a post Richard wrote on Tikun Olam about the matter. The entire article is linked below the quote:

When you’ve dealt with Jewish right-wingers as long as I have you can smell a rat a mile off and I sure smelled one. I did some research and discovered that IsraelForum is one of those right-wing pro-Israel sites. It tried to host a Jewish blogging award this year and got into such controversy with the original founder of the award that he withdrew approval for them to use the original name of the competition.

So I had a pretty good suspicion that I’d been blackballed for not being sufficiently “pro-Israel” enough for inclusion in the blog directory (the site does note in several places that it is “pro-Israel” by which they really mean they support a hard-right political agenda).

Tikun Olam Banned from JBlog Central - Tikun-Olam

So, long story short, no ... I don't think it's likely that it's "forums for all" ... although I will allow that the site's owner and those that frequent the site would certainly love to get their opinions adopted by the "masses" ...

After all, that is really the point of hasbara, isn't it ?

 

[cheri1122]

Gotcha

And your dispatch will never convince me your a good driver. They have no way of knowing this, and I deny it completely. It's never been proven, and they could all be schizo....for all we know.

Be safe Cheri...Indoor plumbing has me signing off for the night. It's been fun as always, and hope you have a great start to the new year.

Turtle to!

My dispatchers would not try to convince you that I'm a good driver, because they frankly don't care whether you think so or not - but why would you deny it? Is there anything I can do right around here?!
Ditto on the best wishes: drive safe and sane, and keep the shiny side up. [I'd miss having someone to argue with if you crashed, lol]