There are certainly people who should not have guns. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Is being placed on some watch list enough to justify taking away someone's Constitutionally guaranteed right? Does it meet the standards of due process?
POLL Watch Lists and Guns
- Thread starter Turtle
- Start date
danthewolf00
Veteran Expediter
I guess I'm not as observant as I should be, or my memory is not as good as it used to be. But I can't think of a single person on EO who thinks that a crazy person, or a felon, or an illegal alien, for example, should have a gun in this country.
Guess not.
I bet there are several "shall not be infringed" types reading these forums....
And I'm one of them. "Shall not be infringed' is pretty unambiguous with zero room for interpretation. But the right to keep and bear arms is the same as every other right we have in that it can be taken away only after due process. The same due process that allows the government to take away your right to keep and bear arms should be the same exact due process that allows the government to take away your liberty by locking you behind bars, or to take away your life in executing you.
If they can take away one of your rights simply by adding your name to a list without due process, then we don't have any rights at all. All we have are privileges granted, at the whimsy of those in power.
That's exactly the way big government wants it to be, and for some reason liberals don't see it as a problem.
the no fly list takes away your personal freedom to move about freely...but that does not seem to be a constitutional problem?.....I don't know....just putting it out there for discussion...
The AR-15 is a civilian version of an M8 carbine, and is so low powered that it can't even be used to hunt deer, because it can't bring one down with a single shot. As for .50 caliber and up for military use...
From left to right: .50 caliber (sniper round), .300 Win Mag, .308 Winchester (both the 300 & 308 are hunting caliber for deer and larger), 7.62x39mm (for use in hunting up to smallish whitetail deer), 5.56 NATO (the AR-15 bullet), and the .22 (the 5.56 and the .22 have the same diameter, but the .22 has a less powerful cartridge). Both the AR-15s 5.56 and the .22 are for small game, varmints and terrorism.
From left to right: .50 caliber (sniper round), .300 Win Mag, .308 Winchester (both the 300 & 308 are hunting caliber for deer and larger), 7.62x39mm (for use in hunting up to smallish whitetail deer), 5.56 NATO (the AR-15 bullet), and the .22 (the 5.56 and the .22 have the same diameter, but the .22 has a less powerful cartridge). Both the AR-15s 5.56 and the .22 are for small game, varmints and terrorism.
You can still move about freely, on a train, in a car, on a bus, walking, a bike, whatever, just not on a commercial aircraft. You can charter a plane if you're on the list, or fly your own plane (which is hilarious if you think about it).
Thanks. LOL
I created the thread and poll on the phone, and I couldn't edit the poll itself on the phone. I've edited it now to correct the typo.
Problem is, "AR15 types" would include ANY semi-automatic rifle because that's all it is. Regarding its magazine capacity that's often cited, there are quite a few semi-automatic rifles that accommodate high-capacity magazines over 20-30 rounds. Limiting capacity also does not solve the problem of lunatics that want to kill people.
Also, .50 caliber ammo is non-regulated and completely legal for public use. So are the rifles that shoot it, if one has the $$$ to purchase them along with the ammo if you can find them; they're special order items not commonly available at most retailers. Both are VERY expensive, with the rifles around $5500 and up, the ammo pricing from $3 - $6 per round. Not very practical for the average criminal or terrorist.
The AR-15 is a civilian version of an M8 carbine, and is so low powered that it can't even be used to hunt deer, because it can't bring one down with a single shot. As for .50 caliber and up for military use...
From left to right: .50 caliber (sniper round), .300 Win Mag, .308 Winchester (both the 300 & 308 are hunting caliber for deer and larger), 7.62x39mm (for use in hunting up to smallish whitetail deer), 5.56 NATO (the AR-15 bullet), and the .22 (the 5.56 and the .22 have the same diameter, but the .22 has a less powerful cartridge). Both the AR-15s 5.56 and the .22 are for small game, varmints and terrorism.
You can still move about freely, on a train, in a car, on a bus, walking, a bike, whatever, just not on a commercial aircraft. You can charter a plane if you're on the list, or fly your own plane (which is hilarious if you think about it).
Regarding these watch lists, there's no evidence the FBI, NSA or any govt agency has the competence to properly administer a terrorist watch list or no-fly list. They're obviously not too good at investigating people on them either, as evidenced by the Orlando shooter getting a pass on two different occasions.
My German born wife entered this country legally and earned a USA citizenship in 1974. She held a USA passport shortly thereafter. We Joined Roberts Express in 1989 and received CDLs with Hazmat endorsements when CDLs were first introduced. We were invited into the carrier's White Glove Division and received government security clearances within one week from carrier application. When she renewed her CDL a few years later, a background investigation was required for the Hazmat endorsement and the result of that was a letter from the Homeland Security Department that stated, in part, "The Transportation Security Administration has determined that you are a threat to the security of the United States of America and your request for the transportation of hazardous materials has been denied." She was also informed that her name was placed on the no-fly list. I suspect that this determination was made by a low level (perhaps a GS-5) administrator and approved by a supervisor. (perhaps a GS-11/12). This determination was made without the due process her citizenship guaranteed; it had the effect of denying her the right to travel freely by air and would certainly have caused a delay, or possibly a denial, in returning to the USA with a shipment from Canada. Fortunately, we had the TSA decision reversed.
My response to the poll is a well justified NO.
My response to the poll is a well justified NO.
I don't think you understand, there are people who take "shall not be infringed" as an absolute, that there is no reason why the government should take away or deny a person guns.
If God forbid they were to let Charles Manson out of prison these people believe that he should have the legal right to go to the nearest gun dealer and purchase a weapon.
As for a way to appeal being added to the database, we absolutely need a better system to deal with people who may have been added to they system wrongly.
So what is your answer, I agree the system has its flaws but what do you think should be done about it?
That whacko in Orlando is no terrorist, his "allegiance" to ISIS was meant to distract from the real reason he did it, he was gay and didn't want to admit it.
Hope when he got to "heaven" he got his 72 virgins...... Dudes that is.....
The Orlando shooter was all of the above - a terrorist, a homosexual and a Muslim. The latter two are not compatible and would certainly be exacerbated by the mental problems of this disturbed individual. He was also placed on the terrorist watch list for suspicious behavior in the workplace - TWICE - and dropped off both times after a few months passed. However, had the FBI kept him on the list they might have done something to prevent the massacre in Orlando after he attempted to buy body armor and bulk ammo at a Jensen Beach gun store, and was reported again to - you guessed it - the FBI who did nothing. This brings up the question as to whether their hands were tied by the Obama administration or they were just asleep at the wheel.
1. The Federal Govt has proven itself to be too corrupt and incompetent to properly administer these "watch lists", regardless if it's the FBI, IRS, NSA, DHS or any other alphabet division doing the watching.
2. There's also that "shall not be infringed" factor mentioned in the Constitution, as explained in post #7.
1. The Federal Govt has proven itself to be too corrupt and incompetent to properly administer these "watch lists", regardless if it's the FBI, IRS, NSA, DHS or any other alphabet division doing the watching.
2. There's also that "shall not be infringed" factor mentioned in the Constitution, as explained in post #7.