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Murraycroexp

Veteran Expediter
As Devil's Advocate, how would momentum going into hills affect this?
If I'm running 65 (requiring not a lot of horsepower) and increase to 70 before starting my ascent, but then ALLOW my van to slow back down to 65 as I increase my elevation........
You see where I'm going with this.
I also just DON'T speed up, rather I allow my van to slow almost as much as it wants (to not downshift or come out of lock-up) during the ascent.
I don't know how much this helps but I have to think at least a little.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
However, sometimes engine efficiency is so much greater at one load / operating range that you really do get better fuel economy going faster.

"Captain, I can't change the laws of physics! I've got to do Warp 80!" Montgomery Scott
 

pwrwagn

Active Expediter
It's just amazing. None of you seem to realize that "as produced from the factory" a motor can be that inefficient in a speed range. I don't know the CD, nor measured frontal area, so I can't calculate the horsepower required for 50 - 60 - 70 - 80 mph, but I'm sure it takes at least 60 to 80% more horsepower at 80 than it does at 50. Yet, the engine efficiency is so bad at 50, it takes more fuel to go a mile.

If this thing were optimized for fuel economy, it should get AT LEAST 30-35 mpg at 65, if not higher.

Really, it is. Many full size Dodge trucks with a 5.9 could get low to mid 20's on the highway (60 mph), with a little tweaking from factory settings - ie, the same fuel economy as this little Jeep, with a motor more than 2 times the size, much more wind resistance AND nearly double the weight.

You can thank emission regulations for the huge loss in efficiency. I have a 93 back Oregon that routinely got 20 to 22 with the cruise on at 65. And I typically get 22-23 at 60 mph - and the motors run almost the same rpm at given speed.

And the fuel system in the '93 is NOT a model of sophistication - I know, I've worked on them. The CRD is light years ahead in terms of ability to tightly control things.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
If you think I'm stupid, then I've never been so insulted in my life. If you think I'm lying, same thing.

Either way... Apparently this little club of insiders doesn't want any outsiders.

You have made a claim that goes against conventional wisdom, laws of physics and the Catholic Church. Some of us are having a bit of difficulty grasping the reality of your claim. This has nothing to do with a little club of insiders not wanting any outsiders. Some of us are a little more skeptical than others.

Yeah, that's it. Skeptical. I could start a Skeptics Club and you could start an Optimists Club. We could have meetings, bylaws, dues and other cool club stuff. Then we could have virtual battles here on E.O.

It works like this:

At 80 mph, the motor runs about 2400 rpm.
At 60, it runs about 1800.

I found just the opposite to be true. I had a Ford Ranger, 2 wheel drive with a 6 cylinder and automatic transmission. It got atrocious gas mileage. The transmission didn't drop into overdrive until the truck reached about 67 mph. At that speed the engine was really wound up. I never checked, but I suspected that at 70 mph in OD it was probably getting better fuel mileage than at 60-65 mph in 4th gear all wound up.
 

BillChaffey

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Navy
Mr. Pwragn,
I don't think any one is saying your lying or stupid. My self I'm rather dense. So I fail to see how using more fuel to turn more RPM's which would seem to make your engine work harder can save fuel. I have always been under impression the lower RPM's the less strain\stress on the engine.:confused:
 

pwrwagn

Active Expediter
Mr. Pwragn,
I don't think any one is saying your lying or stupid. My self I'm rather dense. So I fail to see how using more fuel to turn more RPM's which would seem to make your engine work harder can save fuel. I have always been under impression the lower RPM's the less strain\stress on the engine.:confused:

All other factors being equal, you're absolutely right. But not all other factors are equal.

The issue here, is that for emissions purposes, this thing is very detuned. Given the weight and size, it should easily do 30-35 mpg at 55 mph. But it doesn't. It gets a whopping 21-23. But the detuning for emissions purposes is not nearly as bad at 2400 as it as it 1750 - 1800.

So, while you're pushing a LOT more horsepower because you're moving the rig faster, it's just running vastly more efficiently.

For 13 years, I was a diesel injection specialist for many brands of diesel injection systems, factory certified in one. I did original research for economy and performance improvements when the Dodge w/Cummins came out for the aftermarket. Customers began to tell us that when we turned things up, and they went faster, it took less fuel to get from point A to point B. So, we investigated and experimented.

I did a lot of studying engine theory and just flat out trying "stuff". We often saw modified trucks that would take the exact same amount of fuel to move the owner's travel trailer down the highway at 65, as the unmodified and empty truck following them. These are extreme examples, to be sure, but they are neither unusual nor rare. When the electronic systems came out and people could simply experiment with new settings, it became more and more apparent that automakers are often giving away 10 to 35% of their fuel economy (and it's worse now than than) to meet emissions rules.

People seem to be under the totally erroneous impression that emissions standards improve fuel economy. Nothing could be further from the truth. Technology has improved economy, but emissions regulations continue to take larger and larger bites into economy.

ANY diesel vehicle produced today, if emissions regulations were relaxed, could get anywhere from 10 to 40% economy improvement - it is dependent upon engine design, which compromises were made during development and testing, what strategy is used to achieve compliance, and to a degree, load and speed.

That my jeep gets about 60% of the possible fuel economy it should at 55 and about 85% at 75 is neither surprising to me, nor all that unexpected. It is, to me, simply exasperating.
 
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