Waitin' for the snow!
- Thread starter Doggie Daddy
- Start date
paullud
Veteran Expediter
Have you had a chance to think about how a vehicle traveling 100% faster than another vehicle in poor visibility might have more of an issue than a vehicle traveling 21.5% faster than another vehicle in clear weather? Haven't you ever heard of the accidents that happen in blizzard, fog, or smoke?
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Ahhh, gotcha. I see where you are coming from.
Its not the speed you travel BUT the percentage of difference in relation
to the vehicles around you.
Why didnt I see this before.
So, if I use you logic (sic) I am safer traveling 110 with other vehicles
going 125 cause that would only be an increase of 14%
Man you really can argue a good position.
A regular bulldog with all that data.
I told you I couldnt wait.
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Are all of you in good physical condition to put on chains? I once assisted putting on chains and you can have that job. Conditions are not always nice and perfect and there are no easy moments out there. If your a lady driver, there are a few that can put on chains, but I never saw any lady drivers installing chains. Many men won't do it or they aren't physically able to put on chains. My sons idea of chains, if its that bad, he aint rolling, it is not safe if the roads are that bad, but that said,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the ego crowd will go on and do it.
Or those that value their lives and are only trying to get safely to an exit.
paullud
Veteran Expediter
Who said anything about those speeds? We were talking about 30 vs 15 and 70 vs 55, if you are traveling at 100+ down the road in any vehicle it is unsafe. What is your problem with my opinion about automatic chains? You have done nothing but say I am wrong but provided no proof other than the company's sales pitch. The company advertises that they are used on fire trucks but did you bother to look at all the complaints from firemen about the chains? Or the municipalities that use them and found them to be ineffective? There are tons of issues and limitations with the chains that users here have mentioned as well as on other sites. I have never once been in 4 inches of snow and felt the need to chain up but that seems to be the limit for automatic chains. While they might be legal to use in states with chain laws they do not meet all chain requirements. " While they are legal in California and have been approved as a direct one-on-one replacement for conventional chains, vehicles with only ATD's may be required to add additional chains to outside wheels to comply with the California Chain Requirements Chart." I have formulated an opinion based on research not just a guess or sales pitch, I am also not trying to convince myself I didn't waste thousands of dollars or justify my unwillingness to not be lazy and get out of my seat so I may come to a different conclusion than you. The facts are simple automatic chains are not as effective which is agreed upon by users and the manufacturers which means safety is decreased. The reasons you seem to have for not wanting to use tire chains is you have to get out of your heated seat, you get cold, and you get dirty which says you will put the safety of yourself, your wife, and the families around you at risk so you don't have to do your job. I guess you don't care about drivers not inspecting their trucks either since they just don't feel the need to get out of the seat.
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Your OPINION is just that, opinion. Not fact. You are quoting others and that does not justify your beliefs as fact. To many good drivers on EO with ACTUAL experience say otherwise.
Oh did I mention that this truck has ATD.
Yep, it does. Now our old truck didnt have ATD we used chains.
In five years of driving the old truck I had to chain up twice.
I kind of chuckled at having to it, being from the snow belt in NEOhio, but, the law is the law.
So I chained and got to the next exit and parked, both times.
I will do the same with this ADT equipped truck.
Get safely off the road, as soon as possible.
As far as your ramblings about what I have said, well, sorry, I find your logic flawed.
Oh,here is the 2nd site I am posting:
Chain Requirements
The first was for the state of Washington.
Now this just isnt my guessing it is actually from CA and WA.
You are correct in saying that a vehicle equipped with ATD MAY also need additional chains,
But Hey, the LAW says that user of chains MAY need to use additional chains if condition warrant as well. Imagine that.
As for your asinine comments about my concerns for safety.
Lets just say, well, they are asinine.
Your decision not to purchase ATD, may be the best move for you.
There are some long time drivers, here on EO, who posted their preference
of ATD.
I value their input based on "practical" experience rather than your opinion based on "lack of practical" experience.
Doggie Daddy
Veteran Expediter
Well, this thread has certainly taken some strange twists and turns.
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Yeah, well... YOU mentioned the Twinkies.
Doggie Daddy
Veteran Expediter
Doggie Daddy
Veteran Expediter
I've never started a thread that went to over 100 posts before, is some sort of prize involved?
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Sent from my DROID BIONIC using EO Forums
paullud
Veteran Expediter
I never said my opinion is fact, I actually stated before it was simply my opinion. By "To many good drivers..." did you mean 2? I am telling you about people with ACTUAL experience but you just dismiss that and act like your opinion and only those users that agree with you are right.
I stated the same thing as well before, chains should be used to get out of a situation not taking the risk of getting into one. I will not chain up to make it down the road, if you need to chain up it is time to park. I know others will do it but that is their call to make.
What ramblings and how is my logic flawed? This statement is exactly what I am talking about, you simply say that I must be wrong because you are right but never back it up with facts.
So I guess you posting this is just to say I am right that just having ATD's does not meet all the safety requirements. Thank you but I was aware of that before which is why I quoted the rule from CalTrans and mentioned it before but was told I was wrong and needed to prove it.
Great example of showing how I am wrong. Oh wait, no you just resorted to an insult and saying I am wrong because you are right. Are you noticing a theme in your posts yet? I wouldn't even mind having my comments called asinine if you followed up with something to counter what I said. The problem you know you have is you can't say you use ATD's because they are safer since users and the company admit that they are not as good as full chains.
I mentioned websites and users with practical experience and that I used actual users to make a decision. You dismiss any negative I mention about automatic chains and will only believe or accept the positives from users. The problem with that is the negatives I mention are actual facts or opinions from actual users.
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"I believe states that make you chain up will want the entire axle chained which the Insta-Chains only go under the inside tire. These are a dangerous item because they will make a driver think he has the traction of a truck that has chained up but clearly they do not."
And your proof is???
"Have you not seen the stupidity of government before? Some lying sales rep walked in for a meeting and showed how the system works and some foolish person that has never done the job and has no knowledge of how tire chains work gave it his stamp of approval. This may or may not have also resulted in a bribe/campaign donation as is customary when getting a product approved."
And your proof is???
"I would say the weight added is about equal to chains but it is considerable for something that provides little benefit and adds danger. "
And your proof is???
"It is only small time state reps that they need to be influenced so no lobby group is needed, just a few bucks from a company will get the votes needed. I can see where the auto chains could get you out of a parking lot that hasn't been plowed but I see no value when moving faster than 5-10mph. Poor visibility is the biggest issue since being able to stop only has value if you know that you need to stop."
And your proof is???
"The reaction time of the driver combined with the time it takes to engage would add up to seconds, I hope they wouldn't use that obvious lie as a testimony. "
And your proof is???
"That's exactly my point, they are good for moving around in parking lots that were recently plowed or if there was only a few inches of snow fall. If you are on a public road you have a duty as a responsible citizen and professional driver to be moving at a reasonable speed to prevent accidents. If everyone else is moving at 30mph and you are only able to move at 15mph, that can become a big problem."
And your proof is???
"Have you had a chance to think about how a vehicle traveling 100% faster than another vehicle in poor visibility might have more of an issue than a vehicle traveling 21.5% faster than another vehicle in clear weather? Haven't you ever heard of the accidents that happen in blizzard, fog, or smoke?"
And your proof here???
"The reasons you seem to have for not wanting to use tire chains is you have to get out of your heated seat, you get cold, and you get dirty which says you will put the safety of yourself, your wife, and the families around you at risk so you don't have to do your job. I guess you don't care about drivers not inspecting their trucks either since they just don't feel the need to get out of the seat."
And your Proof here???
"So I guess you posting this is just to say I am right that just having ATD's does not meet all the safety requirements. Thank you but I was aware of that before which is why I quoted the rule from CalTrans and mentioned it before but was told I was wrong and needed to prove it."
I didnt say you were wrong on this point. I just included the statement from California thats said regular chains may need additional chains as well. No different than ADT.
"Great example of showing how I am wrong. Oh wait, no you just resorted to an insult and saying I am wrong because you are right. Are you noticing a theme in your posts yet? I wouldn't even mind having my comments called asinine if you followed up with something to counter what I said. The problem you know you have is you can't say you use ATD's because they are safer since users and the company admit that they are not as good as full chains. "
You know nothing of my driving skill or my concerns. Yet, and I quote:
"The reasons you seem to have for not wanting to use tire chains is you have to get out of your heated seat, you get cold, and you get dirty which says you will put the safety of yourself, your wife, and the families around you at risk so you don't have to do your job. I guess you don't care about drivers not inspecting their trucks either since they just don't feel the need to get out of the seat." end of quote.
That is a prime example of an asinine statement. Sorry if it is insulting to you, I know you didnt mean anything towards me. eheheheheheeh
"I mentioned websites and users with practical experience and that I used actual users to make a decision. You dismiss any negative I mention about automatic chains and will only believe or accept the positives from users. The problem with that is the negatives I mention are actual facts or opinions from actual users."
And your documentation is????
And your proof is???
"Have you not seen the stupidity of government before? Some lying sales rep walked in for a meeting and showed how the system works and some foolish person that has never done the job and has no knowledge of how tire chains work gave it his stamp of approval. This may or may not have also resulted in a bribe/campaign donation as is customary when getting a product approved."
And your proof is???
"I would say the weight added is about equal to chains but it is considerable for something that provides little benefit and adds danger. "
And your proof is???
"It is only small time state reps that they need to be influenced so no lobby group is needed, just a few bucks from a company will get the votes needed. I can see where the auto chains could get you out of a parking lot that hasn't been plowed but I see no value when moving faster than 5-10mph. Poor visibility is the biggest issue since being able to stop only has value if you know that you need to stop."
And your proof is???
"The reaction time of the driver combined with the time it takes to engage would add up to seconds, I hope they wouldn't use that obvious lie as a testimony. "
And your proof is???
"That's exactly my point, they are good for moving around in parking lots that were recently plowed or if there was only a few inches of snow fall. If you are on a public road you have a duty as a responsible citizen and professional driver to be moving at a reasonable speed to prevent accidents. If everyone else is moving at 30mph and you are only able to move at 15mph, that can become a big problem."
And your proof is???
"Have you had a chance to think about how a vehicle traveling 100% faster than another vehicle in poor visibility might have more of an issue than a vehicle traveling 21.5% faster than another vehicle in clear weather? Haven't you ever heard of the accidents that happen in blizzard, fog, or smoke?"
And your proof here???
"The reasons you seem to have for not wanting to use tire chains is you have to get out of your heated seat, you get cold, and you get dirty which says you will put the safety of yourself, your wife, and the families around you at risk so you don't have to do your job. I guess you don't care about drivers not inspecting their trucks either since they just don't feel the need to get out of the seat."
And your Proof here???
"So I guess you posting this is just to say I am right that just having ATD's does not meet all the safety requirements. Thank you but I was aware of that before which is why I quoted the rule from CalTrans and mentioned it before but was told I was wrong and needed to prove it."
I didnt say you were wrong on this point. I just included the statement from California thats said regular chains may need additional chains as well. No different than ADT.
"Great example of showing how I am wrong. Oh wait, no you just resorted to an insult and saying I am wrong because you are right. Are you noticing a theme in your posts yet? I wouldn't even mind having my comments called asinine if you followed up with something to counter what I said. The problem you know you have is you can't say you use ATD's because they are safer since users and the company admit that they are not as good as full chains. "
You know nothing of my driving skill or my concerns. Yet, and I quote:
"The reasons you seem to have for not wanting to use tire chains is you have to get out of your heated seat, you get cold, and you get dirty which says you will put the safety of yourself, your wife, and the families around you at risk so you don't have to do your job. I guess you don't care about drivers not inspecting their trucks either since they just don't feel the need to get out of the seat." end of quote.
That is a prime example of an asinine statement. Sorry if it is insulting to you, I know you didnt mean anything towards me. eheheheheheeh
"I mentioned websites and users with practical experience and that I used actual users to make a decision. You dismiss any negative I mention about automatic chains and will only believe or accept the positives from users. The problem with that is the negatives I mention are actual facts or opinions from actual users."
And your documentation is????
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zorry
Veteran Expediter
Not only is Slacktide missing from the T1000 thread but he was excited when I said if you leave a dealer with only one set of auto-chains you are not ready for the real world.
He went MIA when people started asking what vendor or supplier he represented.
You'd think he would comment here. Maybe he's waiting for someone to tell him what to say.
He went MIA when people started asking what vendor or supplier he represented.
You'd think he would comment here. Maybe he's waiting for someone to tell him what to say.
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paullud
Veteran Expediter
The fact that drivers are sold the idea that they are as good as tire chains but they are only good in relatively shallow snow.
This is how our government works, a bureaucrat that has no experience or special knowledge of a job or device makes laws or approves it. The businesses donate money and then they get special favors and legislation in return, please don't tell me you weren't aware of this before.
As I stated before I have never felt the need to chain up in 4 inches of snow and I don't see any other drivers doing it so as stated they provide little benefit. I do see where they would provide a benefit at docks that are on an incline since the water will run down and freeze where your drive tires would be. As far as the added danger I answered it in the previous question.
Already answered first part. As you get moving faster the centrifical force will start drawing the chain in shorter and give you less traction. The weight of the truck and load will certainly apply force down on the chain to keep it under the tire but there is more weight and momentum pushing the truck forward and off the chain. If you get into a situation where you are braking hard and the wheels start locking up even momentarily with ABS you will no longer have any chain under the tire.
Well the only company I saw advertise how fast the chains deploy claimed it happened in 1.5 seconds, it would take about .5 seconds to realize the problem, and .25 seconds to react which equals 2.25 seconds which if you lost control already is to long. The next obvious issue is that this driver would have to fight the natural instinct of getting the vehicle under control which would be to brake, steer, or let off the throttle so really these would have been the first reactions and then you have to add in even more time for the reaction to engage the chains. The other issue would be that this guy apparently lost control unexpectedly while driving along, if he was going slow enough to engage the chains then all he really needed to do was let off the throttle to get traction back.
Well by what users here have said and what the company says it seems they are only good in a few inches of snow maybe a little more if it is dry powder.
I guess you have never heard of the pile ups in poor visibility then. Use Google to search accidents caused by fog, smoke, poor visibility, etc. there are plenty of them. They are frequently caused by a vehicle moving at a slower rate of speed which causes vehicles behind them to brake and go even slower, pretty soon you have a chain reaction where vehicles in the back almost come to a complete stop. When you have poor visibility and a vehicle that is barely moving being approached by a vehicle that does not see them and on slippery roads it is obvious what will happen.
The proof is in your statements and your reasons for using automatic chains. Everyone seems to acknowledge that they are not as effective as full chains so you know very well that you are using a less effective device which decreases safety and could also put the truck in a situation where the snow is to dense or gets over a few inches deep so the auto chains won't even work. You can't sit there and say the chains give better traction so that is why you use them, you use them because they are easier and don't require you to work.
My point was simply that just having the auto chains does not make you legal as some seem to believe and that they are marketed as being legal and meeting the stringent requirements of chain laws which is very misleading.
I never said anything about your driving skills but it is clear what your concerns are.
I was simply pointing out the truth about why you use auto chains, as stated before they are not better in any way other than you don't have to get out of your truck and you do know they are not as good. I have no problem with you considering my statements to be asinine and would not be insulted by it if you actually showed me how I am wrong. If you simply say this comment is asinine or wrong but have no proof or any counter to it other than because you say so then it is an insult and just proves my point that you have nothing to back up your statement after I gave specific reasons and examples.
I said I researched the possibility of getting them, anytime you research something you can simply search terms like automatic chain problems, complaints, issues, etc. and find websites of people that say a product is junk or people that stand up for it. You have mentioned that you accept the user's opinions here because they have actual experience but I have none so my opinion isn't valid despite the fact mine is based off of a much larger pool of people than the 3 total here. If they work for you that's fine but you know very well you are using a product at the expense of decreasing the safety of yourself and everyone around you so that you don't have to get out of the truck. You have not proven that statement to be wrong and there really is no way to given the facts of the effectiveness of automatic chains vs full chains. Why not try and actually show proof that I am wrong instead of just saying I am wrong?
ChanceMaster
Expert Expediter
[QUOTE
Oh did I mention that this truck has ATD.
Yep, it does. Now our old truck didnt have ATD we used chains.
In five years of driving the old truck I had to chain up twice.
I kind of chuckled at having to it, being from the snow belt in NEOhio, but, the law is the law..[/QUOTE]
Interesting ! I have been OTR for just a few years and have only chained up 3 times...and being from Michigan, I thought those 3 times were unnecessary. Conditions really were not "that bad" . Unlike you we kept rolling after chaining / unchaining, dodging pieces of broken and lost chains in the roadway.
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Oh did I mention that this truck has ATD.
Yep, it does. Now our old truck didnt have ATD we used chains.
In five years of driving the old truck I had to chain up twice.
I kind of chuckled at having to it, being from the snow belt in NEOhio, but, the law is the law..[/QUOTE]
Interesting ! I have been OTR for just a few years and have only chained up 3 times...and being from Michigan, I thought those 3 times were unnecessary. Conditions really were not "that bad" . Unlike you we kept rolling after chaining / unchaining, dodging pieces of broken and lost chains in the roadway.
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