vans and logs

[LDB]

I know logs are not required for under 10,001 gvw except in a couple of states or when hauling hazmat. Recently something was posted about a van with a hazmat load being put out of service at a weigh station because of not having the last 7 days logs. I spend about 5 minutes a day keeping my logbook up to date, if that long. My question is, would it be a good idea for a van to keep daily logs so you'd have the needed 7 days prior in the event of a hazmat load or being stopped in one of those vans must log states?

Leo Bricker, owner trucks 3034, 4958
OOIDA 677319
73's K5LDB
EO Forum Moderator 1+ Years of Service
Expediters Online.com - The Best is Getting Better!
-----
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[redytrk]

This is a great question Leo. When I ran a van in the olden days for Roberts Express,our safety dept required only that we provide a log for the previous day. I can see why a DOT could claim,that you need the previous 7 days.

Fortunatly I never was stopped while loaded W/Hazmat.

 

[terryandrene]

Federal Regulations require vans to log when hauling more than 1000 lbs of HazMat. The States of New York and Alabama Laws require all commercial vehicles, including vans, to log when going to or passing thru those states.

Scale Houses that post signs for commercial vehicle to enter do not necessarily mean cargo vans hauling commerce. Each State is different, for example: Missouri requires vehicles with a registered weight over 12,000 pounds to log and scale. Illinois requires vehicles over 8 tons GVWR to scale. Wisconsin and Iowa are 6,000 pounds for the scales. Different States; different descriptions for Commercial Vehicles.

My carrier, for one, requires log copies for vans only when operating under Federal DOT regulations, not just State laws. When required to log, we indicate the last seven days to be off duty, because we were not on duty for logging purposes. When I log, I go on duty at the time I accept a run offer, and go off duty again the moment after the customer signs the Bill of Lading. Ihad no loggable HazMat during 2005, so I wouldn't bother to log just for drills.

Terry

 

[Moot]

This is a gray area. I use a form that list previous 7 days and total hours on duty for each of those previous 7 days. This shows only total hours on duty and is not boken down into drivng time or sleeper time. I can guess-ta-mate these hours because I keep my own personal trip sheet for every load I haul. I have presented this to DOT on two occasions along with my single log sheet and had no problems. Stating that you were off duty the previous 7 days when in fact you were working (though not required to log) could come back to bite you in the rear. As for scales I don't stop unless running placards. If they ever come after me Ill just plead ignorance. I'm good at that!

 

[LDB]

I guess using the prior 7 days off duty you could always say you took a sight seeing vacation for the last week after delivering or something but then they might ask to see POD 8 days ago.

I presumed it wasn't a major issue but while sitting here with too much time on my hands got to thinking about vans and wondering if it wouldn't just be easier to take the 3 to 5 mintes a day to have the log ready just in case.

Leo Bricker, owner trucks 3034, 4958
OOIDA 677319
73's K5LDB
EO Forum Moderator 1+ Years of Service
Expediters Online.com - The Best is Getting Better!
-----
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[redytrk]

I think you are right Leo. In the event of an accident,I think the lawyers would have a field day, if you said you were off duty,if in fact you were working your butt off. They can come up with all kinds of ways to get you.Fuel,toll reciepts,cell phone records etc.

 

[ConfusedMuse]

I seriously think the day is coming when all commercial vehicles will be required to log. All it is going to take is one whiz bang pile up with loss of lives,
with a cargo van or other smaller size commercial vehicle as the culprit and everyone will have to log. So it is good practice to do them. Let's face it while they ( logs) are at times a pain in the patooie, they do force us to run legal, somewhat humane hours.

 

[greg334]

>I guess using the prior 7 days off duty you could always say
>you took a sight seeing vacation for the last week after
>delivering or something but then they might ask to see POD 8
>days ago.
>
>I presumed it wasn't a major issue but while sitting here
>with too much time on my hands got to thinking about vans
>and wondering if it wouldn't just be easier to take the 3 to
>5 mintes a day to have the log ready just in case.

Leo,

I wonder how I can log the use of my van as a personal vehicle. I mean right now it is the only vehicle I use, my wife’s van is used for her work and my dodge is mothballed until I get enough money to get it road ready. I cold pull my Packard out of storage and use that, but driving a 55 year old car seems too eccentric around my neighborhood. So if I have to go get groceries, under the premise that if I am in the truck I am on duty or driving.

Here is a stupid example that is extreme. I am sitting here at home watching CNN (yea I know yuk!), I am in service - I assume I am not on duty. My day started at 5 AM and have not been in the truck but loaded it for the day. I get a call at 3PM (10 hours after I woke up) for a pickup to take a load to Hartford Conn, around 550 miles away with a 9am delivery, easily a 13 hour drive. If I had log and have been on duty while waiting for a load, I can’t take that load, can I?

I like Terry’s comments, it makes too much sense. I already had a hazmat load and fortunately I could create the 7 days from my bol copies. I am more nervous making sure the load is correctly loaded and secured than my log.

Oh ya, Moot – you must have been one of those guys I sat next to in Waddy Ky, they were peeved at me because I told them I always scale in KY.

 

[tec1959]

Leo hi,I was wondering when you are going to share the photos of your new truck....Have a good one..

 

[LDB]

Greg,

Technically, when I'm home I can drive my D unit to the grocery store if I want to and that isn't on duty because it's personal use around home the same as if I were in my car. In your example, the only conflict I see is the 13 hours driving. I wouldn't start my on duty clock until I was leaving to get the load. I was just thinking about a post I read where somebody lost a big pile of money because they didn't have the logs and the officer put them out of service. That made me wonder if it wasn't better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them.

And for everyone, as soon as the forum accepts .jpg images I'll post a photo of the truck.

Leo Bricker, owner trucks 3034, 4958
OOIDA 677319
73's K5LDB
EO Forum Moderator 1+ Years of Service
Expediters Online.com - The Best is Getting Better!
-----
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[barney]

How about keeping a log for tax reasons. Every day on the road is a deduction.

 

[DannyD]

Hiya Leo,

You seem to ask insightful questions. My first impulse was to answer "no" to your question. Thinking it out a lil bit more, it might not be a bad idea. Then again, one of the reasons people drive B units is so they don't have to keep logs.

I have no facts to back this up, but if ya count the time people who generally don't need to log would spend logging vs. the time those same people get hung up in a situation, I would think that to have all the B unit drivers logging when they don't have to would add up to more time than would be spent being detained.

Example: If 1,000 B unit drivers spent 5 minutes/day logging, that would be 5000 minutes/day. 300 working days would = 1,500,000 minutes logging yearly. Divide by 24 & you would have 62,500 hours logging. I don't think B unit drivers get held up for a total of 62,500 hours per year because of not logging.

Because of the above reason, I would say to not log.

Interesting Q from ya & take care,
Danny

 

[LDB]

Danny,

The only problem with looking at it that way is it doesn't address my original question/thought. Specifically the one B unit driver who lost a run worth about $900 to the truck plus being put out of service for 10 hours plus having a pretty good deadhead to somewhere decent after the 10 hours.

If the company was paying the logging time on an hourly basis there might be reason to follow your theory. Since each individual is their own entity it's just a matter of maybe 3 minutes per day times the days on the road. It might amount to a total of 15-16 hours per year weighed against the potential loss of hundreds of dollars of revenue plus 10 hours out of service.

I appreciate all who have responded so far and hope we can continue an interesting and civil thread. Thanks.

Leo Bricker, owner trucks 3034, 4958
OOIDA 677319
73's K5LDB
EO Forum Moderator 1+ Years of Service
Expediters Online.com - The Best is Getting Better!
-----
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[Packmule]

Leo,

I'm a little confused on the issue of logging when you are home and out of service. I was told in another post that if I drove my truck to the truck wash 10 miles from my home that I needed to log it as on duty driving. Yet you stated in an earlier post that you could drive your truck to pick up groceries and not log anything as on duty.
What am I missing?

Dan

 

[jaminjim]

Driving your truck to the truck wash is logged because it's the same as getting work done on it. If while at home you drive your truck to be serviced it needs to be logged.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/truck/driver/hos/hos-faqs.asp

A good link to refer to.

 

[geo]

when i saw the new rules that were coming and they said more was to come though could only get harder to make a living in a truck you had to log, so i though van's don't need to log only if they have a hazmat load on over 1,000 lbs, so if it's over a l,000 lbs and has to have signs on don't carry it plus don't have a seal bulk head
so don't care alot of hazmat and when it come's time to renew my lic this next time no hazmat on it or tanks

only thing i miss from my western star is the sleeper, as sometimes were waitting for H01 truck to come in and could take a nap while waitting

also found out don't wish for something to happen because sometimes it will happen so don't wish to log in a van only if you have to
so stay safe and have fun

 

[terryandrene]

Let me try this approach.

Let's assume all vans (B truck) are less than 10,000# GVWR. Federal Regulations related to logs do not apply to vans (unless they are carrying a placarded amount of HazMat).

During those periods a van driver is not Federally regulated, they are not "on duty"; therefore, they are "off duty". Vans have no requirement to log this status while off duty. At such a time that a van driver enters a logging status, the driver must account for seven days of loggable activity. A this point, the last six days were "off duty" so you fill out one log sheet indicating zero miles driven and six days off duty. On duty begins with the pre-trip inspection prior to enroute pickup and ends at the moment delivery is complete; even though you will continue driving to layover, but in an off duty status as far as Federal Regulations is concerned.

I have no quarrel with anyone who wants to log all day, every day, but it is unnecessary. For those using the transportation workers Standard Meal Allowance, a ledger indicating time left home and time returned, is all that is required.

Concerning the personnel use of van issue, when I'm on duty, and I'm using the van to go to Home Depot, I consider this business use for tax purposes. My justification for this is the Qualcomm which is my contact with the carrier. Since the van is transporting my Qualcomm, I'm using it for business.

Kentucky Scales. Ky no longer requires vans to enter the scales. This according to Officer Upshur, the scalemaster at Elizabethtown. Don't believe me though. Stop at the scales next time thru and go inside and ask what the minimum sized commercial vehicle is required to enter. I trust you'll get the same answer I received.

Terry

 

[DannyD]

>The only problem with looking at it that way is it doesn't
>address my original question/thought. Specifically the one B
>unit driver who lost a run worth about $900 to the truck
>plus being put out of service for 10 hours plus having a
>pretty good deadhead to somewhere decent after the 10 hours.

Hiya Leo,

Ok, so lets figure the above driver lost out on $1500.

If a driver is to spend 5 minutes/day logging & works 300 days a year, he'd spend 1500 minutes, or 25 hours logging. If this same driver averages $15/hour, that would be $375 for those 25 hours.

So in a sense is what this driver is doing is buying an insurance policy for $375 that has a payoff of $1500.

My thinking here would be that if someone feels they'll get caught once approx. every 4 years or less, it's wise to log.

Now, none of the above factored in that ya can't put those 5 minute segments together & get one good run out of em. So based on that ya might wanna take 5 minutes & get the feeling of security. On a purely time/money spent for return though, I would think one is overpaying for insurance.

Enjoying the point/counterpoint aspect here,
take care,
Danny

 

[cheri1122]

Thank you, Terry & Rene, & everyone who responded to my original post (on the Newbies forum, because there was a question on HOS that reminded me of my problem).
The fact that it is a gray area is what causes the trouble, & I've been advised to log for my own protection, & also not to log, for the same reason. My inclination would be to not log if it isn't required, mainly because in case of a lawsuit situation, an attorney could point out any error or discrepancy, as evidence of an untruthful entry.
I am glad to know that I can legally log "off duty" for the previous seven days, when I am required to log for hazmat. Had I known that before, I wouldn't have been put OOS when the issue came up at a scale in Ohio.
My van is also my personal transportation, and I don't consider myself "on duty" when I am not dispatched on a load, but it's good to know that I'm also not "on duty" when not required to log.
I too, think the day will come when every commercial vehicle is required to log - mainly because I think logging is typical govt BS - inconvenience the many for the misdeeds of a few, and exempt enough categories to make it all meaningless.

 

[LDB]

Excellent point/counterpoint. I'll see your counterpoint and raise you another point. It would be nice if all those 5 minutes's could be put together into one nice run but unfortunately there's no way to save and reassemble them into a continuous segment. What we have then is one driver who is taking 60-90 seconds 2 or 3 times a day to draw a few lines and another who isn't. One could go on the theory it's costing the driver some of that $15 per hour but one could just as easily go on the theory it's during down time which is off duty personal time and therefore isn't revenue generating or paid time. If the driver was disciplined it could all be done at the end of the day since it would only be needed if hauling hazmat the following day. In that case the driver is "paying" about 20 hours a year premium with no actual out of pocket expense for "insurance" that might pay off $1000-1500.

GREAT THREAD!!! This is how threads should go. Excellent discussion with no "banter".

Leo Bricker, owner trucks 3034, 4958
OOIDA 677319
73's K5LDB
EO Forum Moderator 1+ Years of Service
Expediters Online.com - The Best is Getting Better!
-----
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.