van question
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guido4475
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Not many, really.Gas engines have been proven to have the same longevity as a diesel, for far less cost during the lifetime of the vehicle.The difference between gas and diesel cost can be as much as 50 cents a gallon, sometimes more.The ease of mind in the winter not having to worry about fuel gelling up, the extra added expense of buying fuel treatment.Gas engines start easier and quicker in the cold.This also makes it easier on the battery and charging system.The advantages to a gas engine are endless.I had a diesel van, and went to a gasser, and so glad I did.
The main advantage of a diesel is fuel mileage. The pre-07 sprinters are capable of 23+ mpg. The new Sprinters are 20mpg. Most of the gas vans that are as long and tall as a sprinter are going to be in the 13-15 mpg range. A std cargo van will do better, but not as good as a Sprinter.
But, with that said, when comparing newer vehicles and looking at the whole picture.... it's a toss up. There are several threads on the subject.
Ford is building the new Transit van (next year supposedly) with a dual turbo V-6 gasser. It has the potential to be the best van seen in this market to date.
But, with that said, when comparing newer vehicles and looking at the whole picture.... it's a toss up. There are several threads on the subject.
Ford is building the new Transit van (next year supposedly) with a dual turbo V-6 gasser. It has the potential to be the best van seen in this market to date.
Having driven both gas and diesel, it works like this: The diesel I drove was an '05 Sprinter, it got fuel mileage in the 20s, somewhat variable and perhaps a bit lower than it could have been because I was a lead-foot. While diesel fuel does tend to be more expensive per gallon, the difference between what the Sprinter burned and what the Chevy gasser I drive now burns would favor the Sprinter every time. I could pay for diesel fuel and a 300.00 a month truck payment for less than gasoline alone is costing me in the Chevy.
However: Sooner or later these machines break down. They're made by men, they have a limited shelf life, and sooner or later you'll need parts and probably a mechanic to fix the thing. Now the scales tip dramatically. I can replace my entire van with a three-year-old van down at Liberty Motors for about what a replacement engine-- just the engine, mind you-- would cost for the Sprinter. I had to replace the tension pulley on this Chevy, and the water pump. Total cost including installation about a third of what the same items cost on the Sprinter.
About winter and wet weather starting-- something of a toss-up here. I live near Chicago, it gets cold, so putting anti-gel in the fuel any time it gets below freezing is a must. If you do that, and if your glow-plugs light reliably, relax. It will start in the morning. I never had to worry about the Sprinter starting as long as I remembered to keep the fuel doctored, not even on the occasions when it was apparent that a couple of glow plugs hadn't lit up. The initial start was rough, but as soon as the engine warmed-- within thirty seconds or so-- the bum cylinders lit up and the engine ran smooth the rest of the day.
Gas engines can have wet weather problems. You're pushing 40,000 or more volts through wiring to spark plugs, and it doesn't take much for that electricity to try to find a shorter way and not let your engine run. Diesels will run so long as their air intakes are above water, a gasser can be shut down by cracked wiring. So, I consider this a toss-up.
I'm going to vote gas in the vans, the expense of a breakdown is nothing to sneeze at and the fact is that gassers are cheaper to get repaired when they break. In anything-- absolutely anything-- over 10,000 GVWR I'll vote diesel.
If your rich uncle died and left you a boatload of money, buy the Sprinter. If you're like the rest of us, get a decent Ford or Chevy gasser and be happy with it.
However: Sooner or later these machines break down. They're made by men, they have a limited shelf life, and sooner or later you'll need parts and probably a mechanic to fix the thing. Now the scales tip dramatically. I can replace my entire van with a three-year-old van down at Liberty Motors for about what a replacement engine-- just the engine, mind you-- would cost for the Sprinter. I had to replace the tension pulley on this Chevy, and the water pump. Total cost including installation about a third of what the same items cost on the Sprinter.
About winter and wet weather starting-- something of a toss-up here. I live near Chicago, it gets cold, so putting anti-gel in the fuel any time it gets below freezing is a must. If you do that, and if your glow-plugs light reliably, relax. It will start in the morning. I never had to worry about the Sprinter starting as long as I remembered to keep the fuel doctored, not even on the occasions when it was apparent that a couple of glow plugs hadn't lit up. The initial start was rough, but as soon as the engine warmed-- within thirty seconds or so-- the bum cylinders lit up and the engine ran smooth the rest of the day.
Gas engines can have wet weather problems. You're pushing 40,000 or more volts through wiring to spark plugs, and it doesn't take much for that electricity to try to find a shorter way and not let your engine run. Diesels will run so long as their air intakes are above water, a gasser can be shut down by cracked wiring. So, I consider this a toss-up.
I'm going to vote gas in the vans, the expense of a breakdown is nothing to sneeze at and the fact is that gassers are cheaper to get repaired when they break. In anything-- absolutely anything-- over 10,000 GVWR I'll vote diesel.
If your rich uncle died and left you a boatload of money, buy the Sprinter. If you're like the rest of us, get a decent Ford or Chevy gasser and be happy with it.
A Sprinter is not a cargo van, different classes of vehicle really, so comparisons aren't really valid. A better comparison would be a Chevy diesel van to a Chevy gas van, or a Ford diesel to a Ford Gasser, or any diesel car to a gas car. Comparing a diesel Sprinter to a gas Chevy is about like comparing a Volvo straight truck to a a 10-ft Uhaul GMC truck, since they both have boxes on the back. Yes, a Sprinter will cost more to maintain than a cargo van, just like a straight truck will cost more to maintain than a used Penske box truck. Part of the mentality in trying to compare Sprinters and cargo vans is also evident in those who think they can maintain a Sprinter just like they would a cargo van. They're different. While it's true to you can buy a three year old van for the cost of a new Sprinter engine, you can also buy a three year old Sprinter for the cost of a new big truck Cummins diesel engine.
The original question asked, advantages of diesel versus gas....
Power/Torque
Advantage: Split Decision
Typically, gas engines make more horsepower, while diesels produce more torque. Are you looking for off-the-line acceleration of an unloaded truck/van? Maybe you use yours around town where quick starts are important and you don't often tow a trailer or haul a load. If this is the case, then you'll want a gas engine. By design, gas engines rev faster and are able to reach higher rpm peaks than diesels. This allows them to attain greater horsepower numbers and quicker 0-60-mph times.
However, if towing capacity and brute pulling force are your game, a diesel is for you. The torque advantage of diesels is perfectly suited for pulling heavy loads up steep grades. Because of the relatively high-compression ratio necessary to ignite the diesel fuel (17:1 diesel versus 9:1 gas), a diesel makes all its torque and power low in the rev range. As an example, the GM 8.1L gasoline V-8 in Chevrolet and GMC pickups puts out 340 hp and 455 lb-ft of torque, while GM's 6.6L V-8 turbodiesel makes slightly less hp at only 300, but makes up for it in torque with a healthy 520 lb-ft of grunt.
Fuel Economy
Advantage: Diesel
Diesel fuel has a higher energy density than gasoline. One gallon of diesel contains approximately 147,000 BTUs of energy, while a gallon of gasoline only has 125,000 BTUs. This means it takes more gasoline to equal the power output of diesel, making diesel engines more efficient per gallon of fuel burned. Also, because diesel engines use the more efficient direct fuel-injection method (fuel injected directly into cylinder) compared to the port fuel-injection setup in gas engines where gas is mixed with incoming air in the intake manifold, the diesel system has little wasted or unburned fuel. Diesels also use about one third as much fuel at idle as gasoline units. Even though there are no official EPA-mileage figures for 3⁄4-ton and bigger trucks, you'll diesels get six to eight more mpg than similar-weight gas pickups. Over the life of the vehicle, this advantage could be significant, especially if you drive a lot of miles.
Initial Cost
Advantage: Gasoline
Because of the high-compression ratios and resulting high cylinder pressure in diesel engines, they must be built to withstand more punishment than gas engines. Beefed-up parts include a thicker block and cylinder heads and stronger connecting rods, pistons, crankshaft, and valves. These parts can be costly. As an example, if you want to upgrade an '02 F-250 from the standard 5.4L V-8 to the 7.3L turbodiesel V-8, you're going to spend around $4800. However, to go from the 5.4L to the 6.8L V-10 gasoline engine, the price is a more manageable $600. Another diesel disadvantage that comes as a byproduct of needing heavy-duty components is increased weight. A diesel engine can weigh several hundred pounds more than a comparable gas model.
Noise/Vibration
Advantage: Gasoline
Despite huge improvements in noise isolation and engine-noise technology in pickup trucks in the past 10 years, diesels are still louder and shake more than their gasoline brothers. However, a recent back-to-back drive in two Ford trucks, one equipped with a 5.4L gas V-8 and the other fitted with a 7.3L diesel V-8, demonstrated that diesels aren't that far behind. At idle, the clatter and shake of the diesel are clearly noticeable, while it's tough to tell if the gas engine is even running. Under low-speed acceleration, the diesel still makes more noise. But once you're up to speed, there's little difference between the two even when accelerating on the highway.
Cold Weather
Advantage: Gasoline
Anyone who's tried to start a diesel engine on a cold winter morning knows the winner in this category. Diesels don't have spark plugs like gasoline engines do. The fuel is ignited spontaneously once it's injected into the cylinder that's already under pressure. When it's cold (below 30), the air isn't hot enough to ignite the diesel fuel. To help counter this, today's diesel engines use a computer that senses cylinder temperature and injects the fuel later in the engine rotation. By injecting the fuel when the piston is closer to top dead center, the cylinder is under more pressure and the air inside is hotter, which aids combustion.
Short-Term Maintenance
Advantage: Gasoline
Regular maintenance on a diesel is more costly, thanks to several items including the larger volume of oil in the engine and the fact that fuel filters and water separators must be serviced more often, although Power Service or Howes reduces the service interval on these items. Modern gas engines have an advantage thanks to extended service intervals on spark plugs, though.
Long-Term Maintenance and Durability
Advantage: Diesel
The flip side of a diesel-engine's expensive initial cost is its excellent durability. Dodge, Ford, and GM learned long ago they were better off buying diesel technology from experts such as Cummins, International, Isuzu and Mercedes than spending tons of money developing it themselves. These manufacturers all have years of experience building heavy-duty, over-the-road diesels that have to log 100,000 miles a year for years on end, routinely haul heavy loads and may have to idle for days at a time. Think of the diesel engines found in GM, Ford, and Dodge pickups and SUVs as mini big-rig engines. The average gas engine is good for only around 125,000 miles before needing a rebuild and isn't designed to constantly pull a heavy load. A diesel can go more than three times this amount before needing an overhaul. It's simply in the way the piston rings work and how they are designed different for diesel engines.
Conclusion
Choosing between a gas or diesel engine comes down to what you'll do with the truck and where you live. If you use your truck like a car, desire quick, quiet acceleration, rarely haul a heavy load, and you don't plan on keeping it past 200,000 miles before pistons should be replaced, you may want to consider a gas engine. They run smoother, fuel is easier to find, and they're easier to start in cold weather. However, if you use your truck for towing or hauling freight, like good fuel economy, and plan on racking up loads of miles, diesel is an ideal choice.
If I had a choice between a Ford E-350 gasser or a diesel, I'd go with the diesel.
The original question asked, advantages of diesel versus gas....
Power/Torque
Advantage: Split Decision
Typically, gas engines make more horsepower, while diesels produce more torque. Are you looking for off-the-line acceleration of an unloaded truck/van? Maybe you use yours around town where quick starts are important and you don't often tow a trailer or haul a load. If this is the case, then you'll want a gas engine. By design, gas engines rev faster and are able to reach higher rpm peaks than diesels. This allows them to attain greater horsepower numbers and quicker 0-60-mph times.
However, if towing capacity and brute pulling force are your game, a diesel is for you. The torque advantage of diesels is perfectly suited for pulling heavy loads up steep grades. Because of the relatively high-compression ratio necessary to ignite the diesel fuel (17:1 diesel versus 9:1 gas), a diesel makes all its torque and power low in the rev range. As an example, the GM 8.1L gasoline V-8 in Chevrolet and GMC pickups puts out 340 hp and 455 lb-ft of torque, while GM's 6.6L V-8 turbodiesel makes slightly less hp at only 300, but makes up for it in torque with a healthy 520 lb-ft of grunt.
Fuel Economy
Advantage: Diesel
Diesel fuel has a higher energy density than gasoline. One gallon of diesel contains approximately 147,000 BTUs of energy, while a gallon of gasoline only has 125,000 BTUs. This means it takes more gasoline to equal the power output of diesel, making diesel engines more efficient per gallon of fuel burned. Also, because diesel engines use the more efficient direct fuel-injection method (fuel injected directly into cylinder) compared to the port fuel-injection setup in gas engines where gas is mixed with incoming air in the intake manifold, the diesel system has little wasted or unburned fuel. Diesels also use about one third as much fuel at idle as gasoline units. Even though there are no official EPA-mileage figures for 3⁄4-ton and bigger trucks, you'll diesels get six to eight more mpg than similar-weight gas pickups. Over the life of the vehicle, this advantage could be significant, especially if you drive a lot of miles.
Initial Cost
Advantage: Gasoline
Because of the high-compression ratios and resulting high cylinder pressure in diesel engines, they must be built to withstand more punishment than gas engines. Beefed-up parts include a thicker block and cylinder heads and stronger connecting rods, pistons, crankshaft, and valves. These parts can be costly. As an example, if you want to upgrade an '02 F-250 from the standard 5.4L V-8 to the 7.3L turbodiesel V-8, you're going to spend around $4800. However, to go from the 5.4L to the 6.8L V-10 gasoline engine, the price is a more manageable $600. Another diesel disadvantage that comes as a byproduct of needing heavy-duty components is increased weight. A diesel engine can weigh several hundred pounds more than a comparable gas model.
Noise/Vibration
Advantage: Gasoline
Despite huge improvements in noise isolation and engine-noise technology in pickup trucks in the past 10 years, diesels are still louder and shake more than their gasoline brothers. However, a recent back-to-back drive in two Ford trucks, one equipped with a 5.4L gas V-8 and the other fitted with a 7.3L diesel V-8, demonstrated that diesels aren't that far behind. At idle, the clatter and shake of the diesel are clearly noticeable, while it's tough to tell if the gas engine is even running. Under low-speed acceleration, the diesel still makes more noise. But once you're up to speed, there's little difference between the two even when accelerating on the highway.
Cold Weather
Advantage: Gasoline
Anyone who's tried to start a diesel engine on a cold winter morning knows the winner in this category. Diesels don't have spark plugs like gasoline engines do. The fuel is ignited spontaneously once it's injected into the cylinder that's already under pressure. When it's cold (below 30), the air isn't hot enough to ignite the diesel fuel. To help counter this, today's diesel engines use a computer that senses cylinder temperature and injects the fuel later in the engine rotation. By injecting the fuel when the piston is closer to top dead center, the cylinder is under more pressure and the air inside is hotter, which aids combustion.
Short-Term Maintenance
Advantage: Gasoline
Regular maintenance on a diesel is more costly, thanks to several items including the larger volume of oil in the engine and the fact that fuel filters and water separators must be serviced more often, although Power Service or Howes reduces the service interval on these items. Modern gas engines have an advantage thanks to extended service intervals on spark plugs, though.
Long-Term Maintenance and Durability
Advantage: Diesel
The flip side of a diesel-engine's expensive initial cost is its excellent durability. Dodge, Ford, and GM learned long ago they were better off buying diesel technology from experts such as Cummins, International, Isuzu and Mercedes than spending tons of money developing it themselves. These manufacturers all have years of experience building heavy-duty, over-the-road diesels that have to log 100,000 miles a year for years on end, routinely haul heavy loads and may have to idle for days at a time. Think of the diesel engines found in GM, Ford, and Dodge pickups and SUVs as mini big-rig engines. The average gas engine is good for only around 125,000 miles before needing a rebuild and isn't designed to constantly pull a heavy load. A diesel can go more than three times this amount before needing an overhaul. It's simply in the way the piston rings work and how they are designed different for diesel engines.
Conclusion
Choosing between a gas or diesel engine comes down to what you'll do with the truck and where you live. If you use your truck like a car, desire quick, quiet acceleration, rarely haul a heavy load, and you don't plan on keeping it past 200,000 miles before pistons should be replaced, you may want to consider a gas engine. They run smoother, fuel is easier to find, and they're easier to start in cold weather. However, if you use your truck for towing or hauling freight, like good fuel economy, and plan on racking up loads of miles, diesel is an ideal choice.
If I had a choice between a Ford E-350 gasser or a diesel, I'd go with the diesel.
Why? Initial cost is more. Curb weight is significantly more than a gasser, which is important in our line of work. Fuel cost per gallon is generally more than gas, although a diesel will get better fuel mileage. Factor in fuel additives, call it a wash or slightly favor the gasser. Longevity, I will vehemently dispute the article you quoted: The average gas engine is good for only around 125,000 miles before needing a rebuild and isn't designed to constantly pull a heavy load. I've got 640,000 miles on my gasser and haven't touch the engine. Oh, I forgot it's a GM, but Ford gassers are going well over 125,000 before a rebuild.
If I were hauling a travel trailer, cargo trailer or a large boat, I would certainly recommend a diesel engine in a pickup truck. Expediting in a Ford or GM van, go with gas. If you're like me and I know I am, gas kicks donkey. Oooh, racial slur on Election Day 2012. Beg your fûcking pardon!
I drove Ford gassers before I got my Sprinter. I never had an engine rebuild, what sunk the Fords seemed to be bad electrical stuff-- not related to the engine. My first, an E-150 with the 5.0 engine and automatic overdrive, gave me almost 350,000 miles. A leaking rear main seal had to be replaced in that time, but--- that was it. An E-250 followed that. Fuel pumps were the bane of that vehicle, I couldn't keep one for any length of time. It had the 5.7 couple to an electronic overdrive, that was a much happier powertrain. After that, I was in local work so I had a Mercury Sable wagon. Drove the wheels off of that machine, then a Windstar followed that for 250,000 before being totaled in an accident. Then, another E-150. It was still running strong when dispatch demanded I get a larger vehicle, so I got the Sprinter--- and watched my pay drop like a rock. I had made 2100 a week at one time in the Ford, by the time I left that company I was doing good to make 950 in the much larger Sprinter. Drove the Sprinter until July of last year, got the Chevy I'm driving now. This beast is old as Methuselah and has over 300,000 miles on it, and the gas engine is still healthy as a young horse. So, when do I have to do the major engine rebuild? I haven't done one yet.
Why? Better fuel mileage and better long term return on investment, including resale value. Fuel additives like Power Service increase cetane, which gives cleaner burns and increases fuel economy far more than just "a wash". When higher cetane is available in the fuel at the pumps there's no need for additives.
Just because your engine is still running at 300,000 miles doesn't mean three piston rings are pristine and don't need to be replaced. The way gasoline gets ignited and burns (the way the fuel is mixed with air) in an engine dictates that the pistons cannot hold full compression like they do when new. On the other hand, the way diesel combines air and fuel for ignition ensures pistons hold compression for far more miles. The reason people dump gassers after 500,000 miles is because they won't rebuild the engine after a couple hundred thousand miles like they should. If they rebuilt them, and did so well before the engine becomes worthless, the van would last 800,000 miles or more. Pistons in gas engines are designed very differently than those in diesel engines, and they have a much shorter lifespan. Big truck diesel engines don't last longer than gas engines just because they're bigger.
I still think it's funny how people compare cargo vans to Sprinters and think their comparing apples to apples, when they're not.
And, BTW, there is really no need in this thread for the creative use of the Character Map. If you prefer a gasser, then you should have a gasser. If I prefer a diesel, what do you care?
If you were to inspect the pistons and rings, you might not say that.
When do you think an engine rebuild should be done? When the engine stops working? Do you wait for all wear parts on the vehicle to completely fail before you replace them?
Before I run to spend money on an engine rebuild, I do a bit of checking. First thing, how much oil is the engine using? If it's got worn rings it will use a noticeable amount of oil. Like in a lot more than it should. This one doesn't use much at all, really surprisingly little. So, I think it safe to say rings and valve seals are still in good shape.
Second, before you plop big money on a rebuild, get a compression tester. A healthy engine should show fairly high pressures and the pressures should be consistent across all the cylinders. If there's more than a 15% difference between the lowest and highest readings, it may be time for a rebuild.
Has the engine been making loud noises, like bearing knocking or piston slapping? You may have to re-build.
Otherwise, if the engine is running clean, giving good power and not using excessive oil, why spend money on a rebuild you don't need? Just because you have 150,000 miles? If you've been doing regular maintenance, you probably have at least that many more without too many worries. Doing an engine rebuild "just because" only makes sense if you're a gearhead spending lots of your daddy's money.
Second, before you plop big money on a rebuild, get a compression tester. A healthy engine should show fairly high pressures and the pressures should be consistent across all the cylinders. If there's more than a 15% difference between the lowest and highest readings, it may be time for a rebuild.
Has the engine been making loud noises, like bearing knocking or piston slapping? You may have to re-build.
Otherwise, if the engine is running clean, giving good power and not using excessive oil, why spend money on a rebuild you don't need? Just because you have 150,000 miles? If you've been doing regular maintenance, you probably have at least that many more without too many worries. Doing an engine rebuild "just because" only makes sense if you're a gearhead spending lots of your daddy's money.
I wasn't comparing cargo vans to Sprinters. You mentioned comparing an E-350 gasser to an E-350 diesel. Let's forget about Sprinters for awhile.
Better fuel mileage I will grant you, but how much better? 3 to 4 MPGs? My cost for gas for this year, through the end of October is .21/mile and 16.97 mpg. Does any body have any numbers for a Ford diesel that include the costs of fuel additives? A new Ford diesel will also require factoring in the price of DEF. An intangable to consider is lost loads due to the extra weight of the diesel. I'm guessing that maintenance costs are probably higher for the diesel also.
...better long term return on investment, including resale value. At what mileage point are you basing the resale value? Sure at 30,000 to 50,000 a diesel might come out ahead on resale. But again we are talking expediting here. At 500,000 miles is that diesel going to have a higher resale value? High enough to offset the initial $4000 cost over the gasser?
...far more than just "a wash". Some real world numbers like fuel cost per mile and mpg would be helpful in determining if the price diifference between the diesel and gasser is really more than just a wash.
I've got 640,000 miles on my gasser and I'm quite sure none of my piston rings are pristine. I don't need pristine! It doesn't use any make-up oil between changes and the fuel mileage hasn't changed.
You lost me on this one with the fuel air mixture stuff. Diesel have a higher compression ratio than gas engines and are built to handle that higher compression ratio by incorporating different piston designs, stronger connecting rods etc which results in a heavier engine.
Why rebuild a gasser at 200,000 miles when it will go 3 times that? If you are rebuilding at 200,000 miles then it stands to reason another rebuild will be due at 400,000 and 600,000 miles to achieve your stated 800,000. What is an E-350 worth with 800,000 miles, even if it has a brand new engine in it?
Hey, I've got so little self control.
I prefer a gasser and I do have a gasser. I really don't care if you prefer a diesel. You injected the E-350 gas vs. diesel into this thread and I'm just trying to state my case why I believe a gas Ford for expediting is a better choice than a diesel Ford.
I know you weren't. But I still think it's funny when those who do, do.
20-30 percent better is normal.
I'm not basing it on any specific mileage, I'm basing it on the comments of the owner of Parker Ford in Murray, KY who states that diesels retain their value better than gassers.
Take 20 percent on the low end, and 30 percent on the high end of better fuel economy, use the price of gas and diesel, and do the math. Diesel has 30 percent more energy than gasoline does, so it's rare to get more than that out of it, but most people get at least 20 percent better, usually closer to the 30 percent mark.
Excellent.
Sorry, didn't mean to lose you, but there's more to it than just higher compression and heavier parts. It has to do with how the air/fuel mix happens, and where in the chamber it happens, and when in the ignition cycle it happens. Diesel wins out because the compression forces the rings to have a tighter seal. A loose seal might not necessarily result in a lot of oil usage, but it will result in diminished compression, more carbon buildup, and loss of a few horsepower. It can also result in a few percent loss of fuel economy. The reduced fuel economy and horsepower might not even be noticed.
You wouldn't want to rebuild the engine solely because of the miles on the odometer, you'd want to have it checked out first, mainly with a compression test. But you also wouldn't necessarily want to just run the engine until it dies, either, unless you view the engine as a consumable to be used up and discarded.
Please make the effort, especially when not in the Soapbox.
I injected the E-350 gas versus diesel because the gas cargo van versus diesel Sprinter comparison is apples to oranges. People who think they are comparable are the ones who generally have the most problems with Sprinters, because they think it's just another cargo van, and they think it should perform and be maintained like one, and they don't understand why it can't. Cargo vans and Sprinters are under 10,000 pounds, but that's about as far as the comparisons can go. All I did was list several things from that article that show the pros and cons of both gas and diesel and the differences between the two. Some of those things will weigh more with people minds than others. People can make up their own minds, I really don't care which one they have.
When we trade these beasts in, I doubt that it will make that much difference whether it has a gas or a diesel engine. You're trading in a van with more than half a million miles on it. Buyers aren't exactly standing in line to buy one of these machines with that many miles, and in truth the next person in line to buy it is likely to be the scrapper. I buy my vans down the road here, and at that he's selling machines that are somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles. I doubt he'd give you much more than a scrap price for a van that has 640,000 on it regardless of what's under the hood.
So, I discount "resale value" when discussing these vans. The question is, which one will give you the best bang for the buck you're going to spend on it while you own it? Assume you're going to drive the wheels off of it and the next owner is going to shred and crush it.
So, I discount "resale value" when discussing these vans. The question is, which one will give you the best bang for the buck you're going to spend on it while you own it? Assume you're going to drive the wheels off of it and the next owner is going to shred and crush it.
In general, true, especially with pickup trucks. How many high mileage, expediter driven E-350s has Mr. Parker sold? I don't believe two identical E-350s, with 500,000 miles, that the diesel will sell for $4000 (initial cost of diesel) more than the gasser. So much for return on investment. Besides, ROI is a figment of our imaginations. It isn't real, just like movies and grilled cheese sandwiches.
I don't want to do the math, that's why I asked for some real world numbers on an E-350 diesel. I believe 20 mpg has been tossed out here on E.O. The pump price of diesel is generally more than gas, although last spring in Indiana I saw the cash price of diesel was cheaper than gas by .02. When factoring in the price difference of fuel, the cost of additives (cetane booster, anti-waxing), $4000 initial cost of diesel engine, 4 more quarts of oil per oil change and now DEF, I don't see any significant advantage for a diesel engine over a gasser in an E-350 used in expediting.
Then who cares? If I can get 600,000 or 700,000 out of an E-350 wthout any noticeable loss of power or fuel economy I would be very happy.
But the article you quoted recommended a rebuild at 125,000 miles and you suggested a rebuild at 200,000 miles. I strongly disagree with both sets of mileage figures.
Consumable and replaceable like a 5 cylinder Sprinter engine? Sorry, I couldn't resist. I really should work on my impulsiveness and lack of self control.
The article was too general and probably applied more to pickup trucks rather than vans used in expediting. The original poster asked about gas vs. diesel. Being this is a board about expediting I assumed he was interested in the differences between the two engines for expediting in a cargo van. You were correct to limit the comparisons to an E-350, I believe a fair comparison could also be made between a GM 3500 gas/diesel vs. a Ford E-350 gas/diesel. No huge difference between the two.
Whether it be Ford or GM cargo van, I still don't see any significant advantage for a diesel engine over a gasser in expediting.
Now that I think on it, that $4,000 markup on the diesel engine as opposed to a gas engine gets my interest. Again, when I buy I'll buy a seriously used vehicle so it won't be that much, but just for the sake of argument lets assume new: It takes a lot of miles, with the diesel not costing as much per fuel mile, to make up that difference. Throw in a couple of breakdowns with diesel parts costing significantly more than the gas version, and it's hard to see how diesel comes out ahead. Now we can also throw in all that EPA stuff about DEF--- I've been reading and it doesn't seem like you get much of a break at all.
Ive always been a Diesel guy but with the newer EPA compliant diesels Vs gassers unless your pulling a five ton trailer I would recomend the gas. The main reason is the EPA has pretty much destroyed the advantages of diesels. If you opt for the diesel look at the Cummings and second GM.
Bob Wolf
Bob Wolf
570,000 on my 06 chevy 4.8...still uses 0 oil between (10,000mi.) Changes...17-18 mpg....get 250,00-300,00 out of the plugs/wire...dont see any upside to diesels anymore..maybe fuel milage but @ $.70-1.00 more per gallon...its a toss up..
.think of it this way...reasons diesels lasted longer ..- less moving parts...todays gassers are just diesel's with spark plugs..
Sent from my Etch-A-Sketch
.think of it this way...reasons diesels lasted longer ..- less moving parts...todays gassers are just diesel's with spark plugs..
Sent from my Etch-A-Sketch
You keep bringing up the cost of additives, as if that cost is a lot. Per gallon, it's a very small amount, and the additional fuel mileage and cleaner, more efficient injectors, along with less carbon buildup gained from it, more than makes up for the difference.
Well OK then.
Yes, consumable and replaceable like a 5 cylinder Sprinter engine. Those who view their Sprinter engines as consumables take the same view of their engines as those with gasoline engines do. There are others who do not take that view. Some people replace their engines, some rebuild them. A rebuild kit is about $1800.
I agree.
I don't know that either one has a significant advantage over the other. It app depends on what you want and what you are comfortable with.