Van markings

[grog111]

Over the last two months, two buddies of mine were pulled over in Jackson ,MI. They were given warnings for not having commercial markings on their vans. They were both told that "their" company name and the city they are based in must be clearly marked on the vehicle. They both run as independent contractors for local company's in Michigan and they both go into Ohio fairly regularly. They both have white panel vans with no markings. My two concerns are; 1. Is this something new? And 2. What would be the reasoning behind this?
I've been toying recently with the idea of selling the straight truck and buying a van for use with a small local delivery company. Believe it or not, after looking at the numbers, it's better money and your down time is spent at home. But, i can't help but wonder what could be coming down the road. Is this a step towards vans having to log? If you are a truly "independent" contractor, does that mean i have to get my own authority even to run as a "contractor"? Does that mean that i'm to be responsible for DOT log audits and "random" drug tests? If I'm "contracted" as an independent, (is that a dichotomy), can i run under the contractors authority or does that blur the line of "independent", (or even employer/employee status),. Why would i put My name on a vehicle that is contracted to someone else? I'm aware of the ambiguity of the 10,000lbs. GVW versus scaling law, but how does that apply to random DOT stops? Perhaps i'm making to big of a deal out of this, i know that commercial vehicles run up and down 94 all day long, but it would be just my luck to be pulled aside and made an example of.

 

[geo]

yes you need marking on your van or truck
right now egl is going to have ceva signs made up and i have mag signs right now with the everything on it and if i need them put them on door's have it sitting on dash right now
until get new signs on

 

[greg334]

Is this something new?
No this is not anything new, it is on the books and has been for years – all commercial vehicles regardless of size must have signs on them, even cab. But enforcement has been lax in the last 40 years. And they can not be magnetic signs; this is a technical violation of the laws because they do state that the signs can not be of temporary nature.

What would be the reasoning behind this?
The reason is to make sure that there are no people running illegally.

Is this a step towards vans having to log?
If there is money involved, Michigan will try to find a way but I think not for a while.

If you are a truly "independent" contractor, does that mean i have to get my own authority even to run as a "contractor"?


No, leasing to a company means that, you are leasing to a company but – BUT if you are running interstate, you need at least an MC number (please correct me on this if it is a MC or DOT number)

Does that mean that i'm to be responsible for DOT log audits and "random" drug tests?

I understand that if you get an authority, then yes that is the requirements.

If I'm "contracted" as an independent, (is that a dichotomy), can i run under the contractors authority or does that blur the line of "independent", (or even employer/employee status),. Why would i put My name on a vehicle that is contracted to someone else?

The whole state of Michigan is blurred, so I would say you have to put your company name and any other ID numbers on the vehicle.

I'm aware of the ambiguity of the 10,000lbs. GVW versus scaling law, but how does that apply to random DOT stops?

They have the right to stop any commercial vehicle for any reason at all, including spot checks. This is commerce, not private vehicles and they are regulated, meaning that it is just like a gun dealer’s license, you got to produce evidence of you running legally. As for scaling, Michigan requires vans to scale over 6500lbs GVW, so there is no 10K limit.

 

[RLENT]

Greg,

Are your comments above regarding markings being required on commercial vehicles based on Federal law, Michigan law, or both ?

 

[greg334]

Michigan law, wasn't that where grog111 said this took place?

 

[60MPH]

Greg is right I got stopped in OH. between washington court house and the chilli bowl about 3 years ago because I use to have magnetic signs and I did not have them on. The tropper told me that all vechicles that are used for commercial commerence must display a sign with the name,city and state and the MC #, he let me go because I had the sign's and was willing to put them on right then and there. and I think it will be a while before they make us log for all loads, but if they do start sooner than later, that will just mean I will be exiting back in to a 18 quicker pulling general freight down the road again burning up the companys fuel with not a care in the world

 

[starski]

Greg is right I got stopped in OH. between washington court house and the chilli bowl about 3 years ago because I use to have magnetic signs and I did not have them on. The tropper told me that all vechicles that are used for commercial commerence must display a sign with the name,city and state and the MC #, he let me go because I had the sign's and was willing to put them on right then and there. and I think it will be a while before they make us log for all loads, but if they do start sooner than later, that will just mean I will be exiting back in to a 18 quicker pulling general freight down the road again burning up the companys fuel with not a care in the world

Can the markings be regular type face(somewhat small/black letters and numbers)or are the markings bold and colorful logos?

 

[terryandrene]

My laptop is running too slow on the Flying J wi-fi to look up fed regs for you, but the name of the carrier and the DOT numbers must be legible from a distance of about 100 feet, might be a bit more or less. Consider looking at other name brand carrier igns and do what they do.


If you run interstate commerce, it is my understanding that the name and number are mandatory. If you just run intrastate, you should check with, and comply with the laws of your State

 

[TRUCKMNGR]

We have always had to maintain our logo's on any and all units whether sprinter, straight or Tractor Trailer. As far as the mention to sizing I was not aware of specific dimensions. I know on our sprinters the decal is approximately 10 in. tall by 36 in. wide or close to that.
To me it always seems like the vans are on the fence and depending on who you talk to with different enforcement agencies the requirements change. Especially when it comes to Logging.

 

[greg334]

Well first there is a difference between ID markings/permit markings and advertisement of what company is. The big panel on the side of the truck saying FedEx (for example) is not an ID of the company or DOT/MC numbers.

Like Terry said, they have to be seen from 100 or so feet and clearly marked. The use of old English font from what I was told was the on;y font that is not really welcomed. But it all depends on the individual officer.

 

[60MPH]

Terry and Greg are correct, must be seen at 100 feet in a contrasting color "so it stands out", You can't go with black decal's on a black truck or white on a white and etc,etc,etc. I know if you look at a fedex cc van you will see the little letters "in grey" on the lower part of the rocker panel behind the front doors. I would assume this is legal because I don't think fedex would put them there if they were not aloud to. And them letters are small compaired to some other company's out here.

 

[fastrod]

Vans 10,000# and under are only required to have markings if they (1) designed or used to transport 8 passengers including the driver for compensation (2) designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers including the driver and is not used to transport passengers for compensation. (3) is used in transporting a quantity of hazardous material requiring placarding. 390.5 in fmc safety regs book.

 

[greg334]

Vans 10,000# and under are only required to have markings if they (1) designed or used to transport 8 passengers including the driver for compensation (2) designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers including the driver and is not used to transport passengers for compensation. (3) is used in transporting a quantity of hazardous material requiring placarding. 390.5 in fmc safety regs book.

No really, each state has it's own requirements, and Michigan is clear that any commercial vehicle has to have proper markings, including cabs (passenger vehicles for hire) and courier vehicles.

When I was at the lab, we had MC numbers and had to have our company name on the side. We had locations in Florida, Ohio and several other states but only Ohio's vehicles were used to hand off the stuff in Monroe or in Dundee depending on the time of day. All the vehicles operated within their home states.

 

[fastrod]

If the van does not fall under 1 2 or 3 of what I posted then it is not considered to be a CMV by the feds. What does michagan define as a CMV?

 

[greg334]

If the van does not fall under 1 2 or 3 of what I posted then it is not considered to be a CMV by the feds. What does michagan define as a CMV?

OK here is what I posted a few days about vans and Michigan, some of it applies to what we are talking about.

OK let's assume this is about Michigan for a moment. I have to follow the states regulations and laws, the feds laws only if they are referenced, seeing the feds don't have rights over states on licensing... yet.

Here are is the actual statute;
257.312(c) A person, before operating a single vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating under 26,001 pounds or a vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating under 26,001 pounds towing a trailer or other vehicle and carrying hazardous materials on which a placard is required under 49 CFR parts 100 to 199, or designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver, shall procure a group C vehicle designation and a hazardous material or passenger vehicle indorsement on his or her operator's or chauffeur's license.

The group C vehicle designation means a Class C CDL so yes you would have to have a CDL running any commercial vehicle here in the state.
​

OH I am also told if you get pulled over and they do a log inspection and you don't have a med card and a CDL, you are put out of service and fined for improper operations of a commercial vehicle. I doubt if someone would actually have this happen but you never know with some attitudes out there.

Now here is the catch, many insurance companies rightfully refuse to allow chauffeur's licenses in place of a valid Commercial Drivers License. For Michigan I think it is a 10 question test and no driving test or medical card is needed, which does not qualify under federal law as a valid commercial drivers license.

AND just an FYI, there are (if I remember right) five, 5, different definitions of a commercial vehicle in this state by weight, one is any vehicle used for commercial purposes which means motorcycles (and falls under 257.7 “Commercial vehicle” defined), one starts at 5000 lbs for signs and markings, one starts at 6500 lbs as defining what has to scale, one starts at 8500lbs which was the old norm for weigh stations and one that start at 26,001lbs (and falls under 257.7a “Commercial motor vehicle” defined but I am told does not supersede 257.7).

AND according to these statutes, you have to scale if you own a commercial vehicle that is over 6500lbs in this state - stupid.

And here is the actual statute for the markings;

257.723 Commercial vehicles with certain weight and towing or platform bed wrecker road service vehicles; identification requirements; compliance; exception; violation as civil infraction.
(1) All commercial vehicles with a single or combination gross weight rating or total gross weight of more than 5,000 pounds and all towing or platform bed wrecker road service vehicles in operation upon the public highways of this state shall have the name, city, and state or the registered logo or emblem of the registered owner of the vehicle, and lessee of the vehicle if the vehicle is being operated under lease, painted or permanently attached on each side of the vehicle in letters of not less than 3 inches in height, not lower than the bottom edge of the door. This information shall be in sharp color contrast to the background.
(2) Except for towing or platform bed wrecker road service vehicles, the identification requirements of subsection (1) may be met through the use of removable devices which meet the requirements of subsection (1). These devices shall be of durable construction and securely attached to each side of the motor truck or truck tractor. The removable devices shall be attached so that the identification is in a horizontal position.
(3) A vehicle in compliance with the identification requirements of the federal motor carrier safety regulations, 49 CFR parts 390-399, is considered to be in compliance with this section.
(4) This section does not apply to a truck eligible for and registered under a farm or manufacturer license plate, that has a gross vehicle weight of less than 10,000 pounds.
(5) A person who violates this section is responsible for a civil infraction.

I am told that even though 257.723(2) say that magnetic signs are allowed, there is another law that says they are not, so it is up to an officer. But with that said remember the state considers you driving the vehicle to and from your home location as part of doing business.

Also 257.723(4) does not have to do with us, it is for them guys who run around on the freeways testing trucks out and cutting people off.

Even though 257.723does not specify cabs and smaller vehicles, there is a law under our commerce codes that do - this state can really use a real overhaul of the statutes.

And Finally, there is an additional statute that allows cities to come up with their own laws on this matter, but it is not used or I don't think it is.

Hope that clears it up.

 

[Run4biz]

I may be completely off here but don't the state laws which your vehicle is registered in govern that vehicle. In other words if my van was registered in Florida the Michigan law would not be applicable to me. Right???

 

[greg334]

I may be completely off here but don't the state laws which your vehicle is registered in govern that vehicle. In other words if my van was registered in Florida the Michigan law would not be applicable to me. Right???

You are right about that but many states have about the same thing on the books, Ohio I think has a similar weight requirement, but not sure.

 

[highway star]

I try to stay away from speculation, but having said that, if the law was worded something like "CMV's operated in the state" it could mean everyone. And then, of course, it would be that states definition of a CMV.

 

[terryandrene]

I "think" that commercial vehicle registration and commercial vehicle operation are two different issues. All States are required to recognize all other State's vehicle registration regulations. For example, Missouri law does not require any vehicle operator to maintain a certificate of registration in the vehicle; the tabs on the license plate are adequate. I may legally travel in any other State, because they will recognize Missouri's vehicle registration laws. Of course any given LEO may not, but that's another issue.

Commercial Vehicle operation regulation differ from State to State. I do not have to maintain a driver's log in Missouri, but I do in Alabama; so they say. I don't have to scale in Missouri but I must in MI, IA, WI and elsewhere, with or without HAZMAT.

Back to the sign. I 'spect that if Michigan law requires a commercial vehicle operator to display signs while doing business in Michigan, neither the trooper nor the judge will be concerned about that operator's State's law. The moral of the message is that it's best to know the laws of your home State and those of the State in which you are conducting your business.

 

[RLENT]

I may be completely off here but don't the state laws which your vehicle is registered in govern that vehicle. In other words if my van was registered in Florida the Michigan law would not be applicable to me. Right???

Like Greg said - you are not totally off-base.

What you are referring to is know as the "Full Faith and Credit Clause" of the Constitution of the United States, the supreme law of the land. It addresses the duties, states within the United States, have to respect the public acts, records, and judicial rulings of other states. IMHO, it is worth knowing about and you can read a little about it here:

Full Faith and Credit Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since, I'm not a constitutional lawyer, how exactly it applies in any given circumstance, and this one specifically, I'm not going to venture a guess - except to say that sometimes things been stated on here as empirical fact - without citing any specific source - like a specific statute of law, which brings me to:

Greg - outstanding post ! Appreciate the effort it took to find and quote the actual text of the statute. Thanks !!!