Understanding war.

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
War is a means to an end. The great Prussian military general Carl von Clausewitz defined war as "the use of force to compel an enemy to do our will." Violence is a characteristic of war. In total war, unlike many recent conflicts, the survival of a nation's independence and sovereignty is at stake.

Nowadays, many nations practice a politically correct form of warfare which often leads conflicts to drag on endlessly with no discernible victor nor resolution. Using the US-Iraq wars for example, the United States and her allies went to war against Iraq a second time because the first campaign was called off prematurely; necessitating a second campaign even bloodier and more horrific than the first. It should be no surprise if the US and allies will feel compelled to re-enter Afghanistan in a few years after the first withdrawal.

In this age of television, satellites and instantaneous communication... there is no political will for total war. So, we are left with military endeavors toppling a dictator here and there from which chaos and civil wars ensue.

A war not worth finishing is not worth entering. We have exchanged total war for feel-good military adventurism. When was the last time our war time objectives were met? World War II ??
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
War is a means to an end. The great Prussian military general Carl von Clausewitz defined war as "the use of force to compel an enemy to do our will."
Quite true. What is also true is, all wars, with only a scant handful of exceptions, be they fought between nations, inner city gangs, or in the school yard playground, are fought for one of two reasons: I don't like you, or, you have something I want. Sometimes for both reasons.

When was the last time our war time objectives were met? World War II ??
That's more of a loaded question that you may realize. It all depends on who is describing and setting the objectives, and whether those objectives are made clear in public.

The official objective of war of the US is always the same (I think it's even in a field manual): Direct every military operation toward a clearly defined, decisive and attainable objective. The ultimate military purpose of war is the destruction of the enemy's ability to fight and will to fight.

The fact that there are political objectives that are more important than that, resounds loudly as to why that simple objective of war is rarely achieved.

Back before 9/11, in May of that year, President George W. Bush delivered his first presidential speech to students of the US Navy Academy in Annapolis and declared that drastic measures must be taken to start preparation of the US armed forces for wars of tomorrow. He emphasized at that, these should be high-tech armed forces to perform no-contact operations all over the world. In the years since 9/11, we have seen that objective be persistently carried out. That's precisely how the Iraq war was fought, and largely the Afghanistan war, as well. Smart bombs and drones, stealth fighters... what good are all those toys if they have to main sealed up, mint-in-box, like a Star Wars collectible Wookie or Millennium Falcon?

It would seem the current objective of war is to keep the makers of military toys in business, so the generals can play with new toys as they tire of the old toys. And if you can take out a few brown people at the same time for a higher purpose, excellent.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Nowadays, many nations practice a politically correct form of warfare ...
Nowadays nations engaging in war are constrained by, and ultimately subject to, international law and world public opinion ... it really has nothing to do with so-called "political correctness" ...

If you have any doubt of this, I'd suggest you pay closer attention to the Shrub's modifications of his travel itinerary:

'Avoiding the Handcuffs': George Bush Cancels Swiss Trip, After Human Rights Groups Seek Arrest on Torture Charges | The Nation

G.W. Bush Cancels Europe Speech to Avoid Prosecution, Protest - Debra Sweet - Open Salon

You know, I would think as someone who possesses a legal background, you - of all people - would know this ... although perhaps your legal education failed to cover the finer points of the laws of war and applicable international law ...

The days of "we're-gonna-go-to-war-and-fight-just-cause-we-want-to" are beginning to fade into the annuals of history ... as befits a civilized humanity ...

Using the US-Iraq wars for example, the United States and her allies went to war against Iraq a second time because the first campaign was called off prematurely;
The first war happened because April Glaspie - the then US Ambassador to Iraq - functionally green-lighted Saddam to go ahead and invade Kuwait. There are several versions of the transcript of her meeting with Saddam over the issue, the following is from one:

We can see that you have deployed massive numbers of troops in the south. Normally that would be none of our business, but when this happens in the context of your threats against Kuwait, then it would be reasonable for us to be concerned. For this reason, I have received an instruction to ask you, in the spirit of friendship — not confrontation — regarding your intentions: Why are your troops massed so very close to Kuwait's borders? ...

We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America.

Another transcript, which was published in the NY Times, is quoted below:

But we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait. I was in the American Embassy in Kuwait during the late 1960s. The instruction we had during this period was that we should express no opinion on this issue and that the issue is not associated with America. James Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction. We hope you can solve this problem using any suitable methods via Klibi (Chedli Klibi, Secretary General of the Arab League) or via President Mubarak. All that we hope is that these issues are solved quickly.
In light of the subsequent behavior of the United States, the above may be considered highly irresponsible at best ... and throughly duplicitous at worst ...

necessitating a second campaign even bloodier and more horrific than the first.
There was no necessity ... as evidenced by the fact that when it became clear that the US would be unable to obtain United Nations Security Council authorization for military action, the United States withdrew the proposed UNSC resolution which would have authorized it. The lack of any vote by several of the permanent members of the UNSC - which the US knew would happen - would have effectively vetoed the measure.

That, and lack of a clear jus_ad_bellum, are precisely what made it an illegal war_of_aggression ...

It's also what makes Junior a war criminal under international law if he served there ...

Legality of the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It should be no surprise if the US and allies will feel compelled to re-enter Afghanistan in a few years after the first withdrawal.
Good luck with that ... with the older armchair militarists greying and dying off at a fairly quick clip, and with the younger generation having had their fill of illegal wars of aggression which were based on lies and went far beyond the confines of what normal common sense would dictate, the likelihood of the citizens of the US allowing us to dive back into unnecessary foreign conflicts is about nil ...

Just in case you weren't paying attention: Syria ...

In this age of television, satellites and instantaneous communication... there is no political will for total war.
And that's despite the fact of the US military's efforts - which were largely successful - to largely sanitize and censor real news from on the ground about the most recent wars ...

So, we are left with military endeavors toppling a dictator here and there from which chaos and civil wars ensue.
You're making the exact opposite case than the one you think you are making ... (as if "total war" doesn't result in chaos ... :rolleyes:)

But, by all means: please do continue ...

A war not worth finishing is not worth entering. We have exchanged total war for feel-good military adventurism.
You speak of "total war" and "feel-good military adventurism" as though they are mutually exclusive things ...

They are not.

You know, there was a time when I was largely anti United Nations ... but as I've grown older and witnessed the inclinations (and the results that flow from them) of those like yourself - which are grounded in pompous self-righteous arrogance - I've become convinced that the UN very much has its place ...

Just as a people (ie. a nation) has the right to implement just laws to deal with its own criminal malefactors within it who violate the rights of others, so too does the world community.

As this becomes more and more the norm, you should reflect back on these words and recall very clearly that it was you - and others of your ilk - who were actually the cause of it ...
 
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cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
The last word on war: "War doesn't prove who is right - only who is left."

When will we understand that - when we lose so badly we learn what it's like to live under occupation, while the victor apportion the spoils?
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
The last word on war: "War doesn't prove who is right - only who is left."

When will we understand that - when we lose so badly we learn what it's like to live under occupation, while the victor apportion the spoils?


The United States mainland isn't going to be occupied by a foreign military presence in our lifetime. With thousands of nuclear warheads at our disposal, we can intimidate or repel any conventional military land or sea assault.

It perturbs some on the Left, but the United States cannot be defeated in the sense that a victor would remain to rule over us. Mutually assured destruction is not beyond the realm of possibility, but we would render any attacking nation nonexistent.
 
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