Far too many absent parents these days. Too many don't make the children that they chose to have the MAIN priority once they have them.
Underage drinking
- Thread starter EnglishLady
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Far too many absent parents these days. Too many don't make the children that they chose to have the MAIN priority once they have them.
Like most laws, the underage drinking laws treat the symptom, not the problem.
And like most laws they go after normal activity and try to legislate the lives of law abiding citizens. Government not only has little reason to be involved they have NO idea what may or may not work. It still boils down to the parents.
And like most laws they go after normal activity and try to legislate the lives of law abiding citizens. Government not only has little reason to be involved they have NO idea what may or may not work. It still boils down to the parents.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Well see the idea that just because someone joined the military gets to do something is BS. They volunteer to do a job and if they join for other reasons beside being part of the group that defends the country shows their lack of character.
NOW with that said, I go back to a serious issue with some who went overseas and fought. They ended up with severe cases of PTSD and with access to alcohol to help them coup, it would be worst for them and society at large. In addition to this, the lack of a formal experience with life issues (economic downturn, depression, etc...) coupled with the overall lack of parenting that has taken place in the last 40 years, we have a formula for disaster with the military.
Many have been traumatized by the mere fact of facing someone (**DI**) who screams at them to do something and others by the mere fact that they have had everything handed to them (Private Benjamin syndrome).
So for those who think they earned it, you need to put this in perspective that a lot of military people do not mature as one would think and the excuse of someone who has nothing to do with combat can use that he is going to be put in harms way by just the fact he wears a uniform and should be allowed to do something a citizen can't do is ... well ... dumb.
NOW with that said, I go back to a serious issue with some who went overseas and fought. They ended up with severe cases of PTSD and with access to alcohol to help them coup, it would be worst for them and society at large. In addition to this, the lack of a formal experience with life issues (economic downturn, depression, etc...) coupled with the overall lack of parenting that has taken place in the last 40 years, we have a formula for disaster with the military.
Many have been traumatized by the mere fact of facing someone (**DI**) who screams at them to do something and others by the mere fact that they have had everything handed to them (Private Benjamin syndrome).
So for those who think they earned it, you need to put this in perspective that a lot of military people do not mature as one would think and the excuse of someone who has nothing to do with combat can use that he is going to be put in harms way by just the fact he wears a uniform and should be allowed to do something a citizen can't do is ... well ... dumb.
witness23
Veteran Expediter
Same in Ohio. One thing to add to that, the establishment has the right to not serve minors even under the supervision and approval of their parents.
Why do so many want to reward our children with allowing them to drink alcohol because they have decided to serve in the military? I just don't get it.
I can see where you are coming from here, but again, why would we want to reward our children with allowing them to drink alcohol before they are of legal age?
I was in the Navy from 90-94. There isn't any difference between 18-25 year olds, military or not. Believe me.
May I ask when were you in the service? Once you report to your duty station, you are pretty much left on your own, you know, you're a big boy(or girl) now. The military is not a babysitter. Once you report to your duty station you pretty much work just like a civilian job. Muster(head count if you will) at 7:00 a.m., then start working, then around 3-4 in the afternoon you were off for the day(if you were lucky)or if you had duty that day, then in which you would have to stay on the ship overnight. Once you were off the ship you were free to go and do as you pleased. Unless, of course you did happen to stay on the base, as you stated above. Just because you were on the base and if you happened to be an E-1 through E4 had no relevance at all on you being "supervised" or not.
18-25 year old civilian running willy nilly at all times? Wow, what a grandious view you have of our military, and what a surprisingly dim view you have for our college students. I am not saying one is better than the other, military life or college life. Military life was good for me, wasn't for others. I actually drank more alcohol in the military than I did before I went in. I worked and lived with others in the military that I would've never been around before I went in. I worked with a member that was an active member of the "Crips" gang in LA. I was once at his house, in "Navy Housing" and he had a party in which other members of the gang were there. I could go on and on with examples of members of the service not being "mature" at any age or rank. It depends of the individual. I will tell you one thing, the military is very good at keeping things "in house" if you will. Not saying that is a bad thing or good thing, just reality.
Let me add this, most servicemen conduct themselves properly and professianally and wear their uniform proudly, as they should. Be careful on your characterizations of our military men and women and our college students. There are bad apples and bad examples in both, along with that there are individuals, both military and college that show exemplary behaviour and make our nation great.
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Witness' last paragraph makes an important point: sweeping generalizations [military members are more mature, college students are irresponsible, parents are irresponsible, Democrats are left wing nuts, Republicans are right wing nuts - whatever] serve no purpose except to reinforce a preexisting condition of thought.
Greg bemoans irresponsible parenting as if it's a recent phenomenon, but it's not - as long as anyone could be a parent, a lot of irresponsible, immature, unready, unfit and even psychotic people have done so.
Was it Socrates, Plato, or Aristotle [the original, not ours] who bemoaned the "ill mannered youth of today"?
Greg bemoans irresponsible parenting as if it's a recent phenomenon, but it's not - as long as anyone could be a parent, a lot of irresponsible, immature, unready, unfit and even psychotic people have done so.
Was it Socrates, Plato, or Aristotle [the original, not ours] who bemoaned the "ill mannered youth of today"?
The biggest difference between college and the military is that military personal are ON THEIR OWN. They earn a paycheck, take care of their own bills, they are independent ADULTS. They support themselves.
That is NOT the case for LARGE numbers of colleges students. Their parents PAY their tuition, room and board etc. They DO NOT totally support themselves if at all. They are NOT independent adults. They live off of loans or mommy and daddy and have no REAL responsibility other than classes.
Just generalizations. I KNOW that their are students who pay their own freight.
That is NOT the case for LARGE numbers of colleges students. Their parents PAY their tuition, room and board etc. They DO NOT totally support themselves if at all. They are NOT independent adults. They live off of loans or mommy and daddy and have no REAL responsibility other than classes.
Just generalizations. I KNOW that their are students who pay their own freight.
witness23
Veteran Expediter
Witness' last paragraph makes an important point: sweeping generalizations [military members are more mature, college students are irresponsible, parents are irresponsible, Democrats are left wing nuts, Republicans are right wing nuts - whatever] serve no purpose except to reinforce a preexisting condition of thought.
Greg bemoans irresponsible parenting as if it's a recent phenomenon, but it's not - as long as anyone could be a parent, a lot of irresponsible, immature, unready, unfit and even psychotic people have done so.
Was it Socrates, Plato, or Aristotle [the original, not ours] who bemoaned the "ill mannered youth of today"?
Thank you cheri. Very well said.
witness23
Veteran Expediter
Man.....I am biting my tongue here and counting to 10 before I respond.
You are absolutely delusional, that is the only thing I can think of for the reason you post what you post sometimes.
Let's start with this:
Yes you are right to a certain extent, but there were people I knew that joined the military knowing that they would be "taken" care of and joined to keep themselves out of jail/prison. They new they would have a paycheck, a roof over there head, 3+ square meals a day, and not have to spend time in a cell. The guy that was a "Crip" I talked about earlier is just one of the few I knew of personally. I also knew a guy who was from a family with money and they had bought him a car, and a condo across the bridge from Long Beach in San Pedro and sent him money all the time.
This is were I have a real problem with your "generalizations". This is why. My wife came from a broken home with an abusive father both physical and sexual. Her and her 5 siblings spent 5 years in and out of foster homes. Her mother when she got them back, raised them by herself for 2 years before she remarried. They were poor as poor can be. My wife went and graduated from Bowling Green University, she worked 1 sometimes 2 jobs to put herself through college with no help from home, except for encouragement and moral support. She has her Masters now and has been a school teacher for the last 16 years. That's my real life experience with a college student. I personally, know of more college students putting themselves through college than those that are having everything handed to them, as you have suggested. These would include niece and nephews to friends and family that have kids in college today. I only know of two that are fortunate enough to pay their children's tuition along with helping out with a place to stay other than a dorm. You are truly naive.
Indeed
Do you?
You are absolutely delusional, that is the only thing I can think of for the reason you post what you post sometimes.
Let's start with this:
Yes you are right to a certain extent, but there were people I knew that joined the military knowing that they would be "taken" care of and joined to keep themselves out of jail/prison. They new they would have a paycheck, a roof over there head, 3+ square meals a day, and not have to spend time in a cell. The guy that was a "Crip" I talked about earlier is just one of the few I knew of personally. I also knew a guy who was from a family with money and they had bought him a car, and a condo across the bridge from Long Beach in San Pedro and sent him money all the time.
This is were I have a real problem with your "generalizations". This is why. My wife came from a broken home with an abusive father both physical and sexual. Her and her 5 siblings spent 5 years in and out of foster homes. Her mother when she got them back, raised them by herself for 2 years before she remarried. They were poor as poor can be. My wife went and graduated from Bowling Green University, she worked 1 sometimes 2 jobs to put herself through college with no help from home, except for encouragement and moral support. She has her Masters now and has been a school teacher for the last 16 years. That's my real life experience with a college student. I personally, know of more college students putting themselves through college than those that are having everything handed to them, as you have suggested. These would include niece and nephews to friends and family that have kids in college today. I only know of two that are fortunate enough to pay their children's tuition along with helping out with a place to stay other than a dorm. You are truly naive.
Indeed
Do you?
I knew a few who put their way through school, most I knew did not.
You know, as well as I do, that you have to maintain your affairs while in the military. No one pays your bills, balances your check book etc.
Many kids today EXPECT their parents to pay the freight for them. Even this stupid, so-called, health care reform goes along with that idea. Why else would they expect a given company to PAY for the insurance for ADULT offspring until they are 26? To cover them while they are IN SCHOOL and unable to provide for themselves.
You know, as well as I do, that you have to maintain your affairs while in the military. No one pays your bills, balances your check book etc.
Many kids today EXPECT their parents to pay the freight for them. Even this stupid, so-called, health care reform goes along with that idea. Why else would they expect a given company to PAY for the insurance for ADULT offspring until they are 26? To cover them while they are IN SCHOOL and unable to provide for themselves.
witness23
Veteran Expediter
I am sure those that didn't pay their way through college are a bunch of no good hippies living off the Govt. and can't balance a checkbook huh? And the ones that paid there way through college are all upstanding citizens, right?
I guess if you are a college student you don't have to do any of those things stated above. Wow, what a twisted view of our society you have. If I didn't know any better I would imagine all college campuses look like a seen taken out of National Lampoon's Animal House.
I know some kids like that and I know many kids that don't EXPECT anything from their parents, other than them being responsible, loving parents that they are supposed to be. I don't know who your friends or family members are, but from the sound of it, I wouldn't want to know them. If you know more kids that EXPECT anything from their parents or anyone else, I feel sorry for you. I have a feeling that isn't the case though, I think it's more of you, dwelling on the negative than anything else, but I could be wrong.
Nice try to divert the conversation by bringing Obama and the Healthcare bill into the fold. So scripted.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
You know a lot of you don't really spend time on campus or think that because what appears to be a rational group of adults is the norm for all You should visit some schools and see for yourself what has changed and what hasn't.
Sorry Cheri, a lot of kids have a different attitude which is illustrated through MANY MANY issues facing them that are talked about in the press and a lot of these issues can be leviated by good partenting. JUST because your kids turn out ok doesn't mean a lot of others did and parents, especially those who didn't do much other than to be a freind of their child (that in itself should be considered a disease) didn't teach kids how to behave or how to deal with pressures of life, mainly because they didn't have to.
Sorry Cheri, a lot of kids have a different attitude which is illustrated through MANY MANY issues facing them that are talked about in the press and a lot of these issues can be leviated by good partenting. JUST because your kids turn out ok doesn't mean a lot of others did and parents, especially those who didn't do much other than to be a freind of their child (that in itself should be considered a disease) didn't teach kids how to behave or how to deal with pressures of life, mainly because they didn't have to.
Brisco
Expert Expediter
"Sweeping Generalizations"
Yes, I guess that about covers it all.
So much said here.........I wish I hadn't taken that Tylenol about an hour ago because my response would be much different and more straight forward than it's about to be.
Quote-Quote-Quotes........Everybody knows who said what so I'm not even going to add name tags.
Reward??? Never had the thought of rewarding Military Personal the privilege of drinking if they voluntarily joined.
??Navy?? If you call that Military Service, so be it. What was your basic training like? 9 to 5, Monday through Friday?? How many push-ups and sit-ups required to pass the PT Test?? 20?? 2 mile run?? 21 minutes??? Some of the most immature and out of shape veterans I know were from the Navy.
US Army - '83 - '88. 95B - Military Police
In the Army, at least back then, E1's through E4's were not allowed to have off post housing. Only exception was for the married personnel. They were required to live in Base Housing. Once you hit E5, then you had all the freedom in the world to live where you wished as long as you made formation every morning. While on Base, Yes, you were "Supervised", not "Baby Sat". (Guess that's a Navy Term) Lights out 10-10:30, Curfews if you did happen to go off base, log in/log out sheets, etc. I believe it was done to adhere to Discipline and Accountability.
"Surprisingly Dim View"? It's called REALITY when it comes to todays college students. Yes, I have a Grandious View of our Military(Marines-Army) I see the DISCIPLINE and MANNERS that these young men and women have when compared with other youths of their same age.
Would've never happened in a true, front line soldiers defending our nation, Military housing unit.
Yes, there are bad apples and bad examples in both, that I agree with. But, the negative examples within todays college students far far outweigh the bad apples/examples within our true Military Personel.
Above you said this:
Totally false in todays Military Requirements for admittance. The days of "Military or Jail" as issued by a Judge are long gone. The days of High School Dropouts joining the Military are also long gone. All of our Military Branches now require either a High School Diploma, or a GED with I believe 15-30 hours of College Credits before they will even look at your application. Any sort of a "Criminal History", even sealed juvenile records, are an automatic denial into Military Service. Sure, I've heard of waivers being given for certain criminal elements that have looked to join to better their lives, but the majority are not accepted. The Military has evolved over the last 2-3 decades into a more Technology Based operating machine, and the old 'pot smoking dropouts/idiotic morons who believed they were above the law throughout their teen years' are no longer welcome.
I guess, and this is my opinion, my belief, when comparing todays 18-25 year old Military Men/Women with the Civilian/College population, it all boils down to discipline, accountibility, and consequences each have and must face. In the civilian world, a college student goes and ties one on on a Wednesday night. Gets so drunk that he skips all his classes the next day. What consequences does he suffer for this action??? None. A soldier does the same on a Wednesday night and skips formation the next morning, skips PT, and is not accounted for until noon or so. Does he suffer by the choice he made the night before?? You bet he does. Same college student does this over and over, what consequences does he suffer?? None. Sure, he'll get dropped from class, Mommy and Daddy will probably pay for him to enroll in same class next semester, and so on. Soldier tries same lifestyle, there is no "do overs". Soldier is DISCIPLINED. Disciplined to the point to where he either matures and takes responsibility for his own actions, or suffers the consequences that will effect him his whole life. (Dishonorable Discharge - but that's after time in the Brig - Soldier cannot turn to Mommy and Daddy to get them out the mess they created upon themselves)
You are in the minority here. We have become a "Nanny" state when it comes to our children. While I have yet to cross that threshold, having kids, I have plenty of neices and nephews, and have a LOT of friends who's children have had their asses wiped for them their whole lives. It is todays society whether you see it or not, or accept it or not. The parental discipline days that we went through back in the 60's and 70's are long gone. Todays children know it, and take advantage of it every chance they get, leaving the parents no choice but to adhere by todays societal rules as they are so called "unwritten". This has followed these chidren into their advanced learning stages (college academic studies) where they apply the same set of unwritten rules upon the staff of these learning institutions to advance their "agenda", and not to better themselves to be better role models for society all together.
I would fully support a mandatory 2 year enlistment into the Armed Forces(yes, even the Navy) for all 18 to 25 year olds in this country. One would not believe how much better off this country would be if we would do just that.
Yes, I guess that about covers it all.
So much said here.........I wish I hadn't taken that Tylenol about an hour ago because my response would be much different and more straight forward than it's about to be.
Quote-Quote-Quotes........Everybody knows who said what so I'm not even going to add name tags.
Reward??? Never had the thought of rewarding Military Personal the privilege of drinking if they voluntarily joined.
??Navy?? If you call that Military Service, so be it. What was your basic training like? 9 to 5, Monday through Friday?? How many push-ups and sit-ups required to pass the PT Test?? 20?? 2 mile run?? 21 minutes??? Some of the most immature and out of shape veterans I know were from the Navy.
US Army - '83 - '88. 95B - Military Police
In the Army, at least back then, E1's through E4's were not allowed to have off post housing. Only exception was for the married personnel. They were required to live in Base Housing. Once you hit E5, then you had all the freedom in the world to live where you wished as long as you made formation every morning. While on Base, Yes, you were "Supervised", not "Baby Sat". (Guess that's a Navy Term) Lights out 10-10:30, Curfews if you did happen to go off base, log in/log out sheets, etc. I believe it was done to adhere to Discipline and Accountability.
"Surprisingly Dim View"? It's called REALITY when it comes to todays college students. Yes, I have a Grandious View of our Military(Marines-Army) I see the DISCIPLINE and MANNERS that these young men and women have when compared with other youths of their same age.
Would've never happened in a true, front line soldiers defending our nation, Military housing unit.
Yes, there are bad apples and bad examples in both, that I agree with. But, the negative examples within todays college students far far outweigh the bad apples/examples within our true Military Personel.
Above you said this:
Totally false in todays Military Requirements for admittance. The days of "Military or Jail" as issued by a Judge are long gone. The days of High School Dropouts joining the Military are also long gone. All of our Military Branches now require either a High School Diploma, or a GED with I believe 15-30 hours of College Credits before they will even look at your application. Any sort of a "Criminal History", even sealed juvenile records, are an automatic denial into Military Service. Sure, I've heard of waivers being given for certain criminal elements that have looked to join to better their lives, but the majority are not accepted. The Military has evolved over the last 2-3 decades into a more Technology Based operating machine, and the old 'pot smoking dropouts/idiotic morons who believed they were above the law throughout their teen years' are no longer welcome.
I guess, and this is my opinion, my belief, when comparing todays 18-25 year old Military Men/Women with the Civilian/College population, it all boils down to discipline, accountibility, and consequences each have and must face. In the civilian world, a college student goes and ties one on on a Wednesday night. Gets so drunk that he skips all his classes the next day. What consequences does he suffer for this action??? None. A soldier does the same on a Wednesday night and skips formation the next morning, skips PT, and is not accounted for until noon or so. Does he suffer by the choice he made the night before?? You bet he does. Same college student does this over and over, what consequences does he suffer?? None. Sure, he'll get dropped from class, Mommy and Daddy will probably pay for him to enroll in same class next semester, and so on. Soldier tries same lifestyle, there is no "do overs". Soldier is DISCIPLINED. Disciplined to the point to where he either matures and takes responsibility for his own actions, or suffers the consequences that will effect him his whole life. (Dishonorable Discharge - but that's after time in the Brig - Soldier cannot turn to Mommy and Daddy to get them out the mess they created upon themselves)
You are in the minority here. We have become a "Nanny" state when it comes to our children. While I have yet to cross that threshold, having kids, I have plenty of neices and nephews, and have a LOT of friends who's children have had their asses wiped for them their whole lives. It is todays society whether you see it or not, or accept it or not. The parental discipline days that we went through back in the 60's and 70's are long gone. Todays children know it, and take advantage of it every chance they get, leaving the parents no choice but to adhere by todays societal rules as they are so called "unwritten". This has followed these chidren into their advanced learning stages (college academic studies) where they apply the same set of unwritten rules upon the staff of these learning institutions to advance their "agenda", and not to better themselves to be better role models for society all together.
I would fully support a mandatory 2 year enlistment into the Armed Forces(yes, even the Navy) for all 18 to 25 year olds in this country. One would not believe how much better off this country would be if we would do just that.
witness23
Veteran Expediter
Hopefully you weren't driving or operating any heavy machinery after taking that Tylenol.
With your statement above it sounds like you are already apologizing to the reader for what they are about to read. Interesting.
Well, if you consider what ever state you may be stationed in, and that's states legal drinking age is 21, and you allow someone under the age of 21 to drink alcohol legally, you are rewarding that individual. Should there be any other priviledged group that should be allowed to drink if they are under the legal drinking age? Say.....a police officer or fire fighter? They put their lives on the line everyday to protect the citizens of the United States.
Wow.....Belittling someones branch of the military? I didn't realize one branch of service was better or more admirable than another. hmmm.....who woulda thunk?
Basic was easy for me at least, maybe some thought it was difficult, but I can't speak for others though . 9 to 5? Navy boot camp is 24/7 for nine weeks. I'm not sure why you would think it was 9 to 5?
When I was in you had to complete a mile and half run under 13 minutes if I remember correctly. For sit-ups you had to complete 50 in two minutes. You had to complete a minimum of 45 sit-ups in two minutes. Piece of cake if you are in any kind of shape.
What are the requirements for the Army?
Well that proves it then, your observations of veterans from the different branches show that the Navy is by far, inferior compared to them. That is very sad, I had no idea that Navy veterans were so below standards than the other branches of service, I'm glad you have brought these deficiencies of our Navy veterans to our attention.
hmmm.....I guess the Navy is different. You could live off base at any rank on your own dime, you didn't receive the "housing allowance" unless you were married.
So, if you are married and an E-4 or below you had to stay in base housing? What if there wasn't base housing available?
So, from E-1 to E-4 you had to spend every night in the barracks, with a curfew? And you had to sign in and out every time you left the base? Sounds like babysitting to me. In the Navy, if you were on-duty, which was every 4 days for our ship, you were required to stay onboard for 24 hours and had to have permission to leave the ship and couldn't leave the base, unless you had permission.
So now, in your opinion, the Army and Marines are the only real branch of the military. Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. I think you will find many here in the EO community and across America that may look at it a different way.
You might be surprised.
Somewhat of a narrow minded view of our youth in my opinion. But hey, maybe that is your experience with our nations youth. I on the other hand have seen both good and bad in my experiences with college students and military personel. To be honest, I've never sat down and counted or compared the two together.
Have you talked to a recruiter lately? I have, and I will say that they do make it more difficult for the "bad apples" to get in, but they are still getting them through the process, believe me. I didn't know a judge was able to tell someone to join the military in the first place. I've heard of a judge being leniant and taking that decision of joining the military into consideration when deciding his punishment.
I do not know all of the protocol that goes into getting someone with a criminal background into the service, but I do know you do not have to have a clean record to get in. Is it more difficult, yes, but they are still letting those in with a criminal record.
So, the military 20-30 years ago wasn't as good as it is today? And the youths 20-30 years ago were just the same as they are today? You're kind of proving my point.
I will agree with you on the consequences compared to military and civilian life. Only because in the military you not only have to live by civilian laws but also the UCMJ.
None, really? Hey okay. It really depends on the individual, if he is bright enough to catch up on whatever he missed out on, then yeah, he really wouldn't have any consequences. That person definately wouldn't want to make a habit of doing that though. On the other hand, if you miss a day of classes, you are taking a risk of falling behind and never catching up and eventually failing the class. In which the consequences can be very severe. I hope I do not have to explain those to you though. If you would like me to, I would be more than happy to.
I'm curious, what would be the consequences of that action? Remember......I was in the military.........
Again, really? That person may or may not suffer any consequences from their actions? hmmmm.....
Seriously? Oh there are students that benefit from having parents with deep pockets but their are certainly consequences from this behavior in college. Again, I would be happy to point those out for you but I would think I wouldn't have to.
The same could be said for a college student. Instead of the Government discipling them they run the risk of being punished by the university, parents, local law enforcement, etc, etc.
Ohhhhh....their are a number of examples of the priviledged getting bailed out by their mommy and daddy in the military. Come on, you can't be that naive, can you?
That's okay, I'm used to it. To be honest, I would much rather be in the minority here in the Soapbox than the majority
.
Speak for yourself my friend. I wouldn't throw that word "we" around too much. I get it though, it is easier that way.
That's depressing. I know of few parents and kids that somewhat fit that description, but the opposite far outweigh what you have described. Man, from what you describe you must have a miserable life.