Udate on stupid mistake.
- Thread starter Yesteryear
- Start date
springrivergroup
Seasoned Expediter
If the owner doesnt pay they dont get the truck back! Put it in impound and it the carrer wont release you to work someware else then the carrer is involved in the dispute and taking the owners side. It pays to know the law and read it yourself, however, I agree with the others who said best to cut your losses early in business.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Sorry do not agree at all.
IT is always practical except it seems where the driver is desperate to make an easy buck. Nopt saying you specifically are that type but look around.
The problem with this industry is the idea that is propagated by a lot of people who want to look important by putting on a successful front is not a business, but something beyond that, like a frickn' paid vacation.
IT is without any doubt a business from the top down and should be treated as such without any exceptions.
A contract is there to limit liabilities and define obligations, not just to tell you the driver when you get paid. If there wasn't a need for it, then the carriers would not have used them for the owner and any owner or driver who doesn't operate with one is rather foolish.
The practicality comes in when other things happen, like accidents which most of the time the driver is on the hook for. Other things can be what this sister thread is about, a crappy truck and there again the driver admitted a bit of fault but the owner is at fault as much as the carrier.
One reason why the US DOT has specific regulations about drivers and carriers is the reason over verbal agreements, recognizing that there is no room for them.
IT is always practical except it seems where the driver is desperate to make an easy buck. Nopt saying you specifically are that type but look around.
The problem with this industry is the idea that is propagated by a lot of people who want to look important by putting on a successful front is not a business, but something beyond that, like a frickn' paid vacation.
IT is without any doubt a business from the top down and should be treated as such without any exceptions.
A contract is there to limit liabilities and define obligations, not just to tell you the driver when you get paid. If there wasn't a need for it, then the carriers would not have used them for the owner and any owner or driver who doesn't operate with one is rather foolish.
The practicality comes in when other things happen, like accidents which most of the time the driver is on the hook for. Other things can be what this sister thread is about, a crappy truck and there again the driver admitted a bit of fault but the owner is at fault as much as the carrier.
One reason why the US DOT has specific regulations about drivers and carriers is the reason over verbal agreements, recognizing that there is no room for them.
Put it impound and put a mechanics lien on the truck. Even if the owner never pays you what he owes you, he will still have to fork over storage fees in order to get his truck out the impoud yard.Just leave it parked in front of a business driveway in Philadelphia and the wreck chaser guys will get their hands on the truck. lol. Great advice.
Tennesseahawk
Veteran Expediter
And a great way to get put in jail.
ftp000
Expert Expediter
I've often wondered why, when some of these same characters keep doing the same thing over and over again to different drivers,
a. the carrier, after recieving the same complaint repeatedly, doesn't just refuse to allow anymore drivers into orientation until the owner settles up with the drivers and past drivers he/she have screwed over.
b. when enough drivers can be found to have been robbed by the same crooked owner they all contact the prosecuter in the area that the owner lives and push for prosecution, I know it's a long shot, but this is a crime, be it theft, larceny, or embezzlement. With enough complaints driving the dollar amount high enough, something might be done.
c. when enough drivers can be found to have been robbed by the same crooked owner they file a class action suit and all go after the owner for a large amount at once, their collective complaint will lend credibility and cause any attorney to start screaming 'SETTLE", they won't be able to afford it so you bankrupt them.
too often we cut our losses and just move on, we are not powerless, these people are common crooks and should be taken down
a. the carrier, after recieving the same complaint repeatedly, doesn't just refuse to allow anymore drivers into orientation until the owner settles up with the drivers and past drivers he/she have screwed over.
b. when enough drivers can be found to have been robbed by the same crooked owner they all contact the prosecuter in the area that the owner lives and push for prosecution, I know it's a long shot, but this is a crime, be it theft, larceny, or embezzlement. With enough complaints driving the dollar amount high enough, something might be done.
c. when enough drivers can be found to have been robbed by the same crooked owner they file a class action suit and all go after the owner for a large amount at once, their collective complaint will lend credibility and cause any attorney to start screaming 'SETTLE", they won't be able to afford it so you bankrupt them.
too often we cut our losses and just move on, we are not powerless, these people are common crooks and should be taken down
transporter
Expert Expediter
like greg said and tennesseehawk said.
refusing to return a truck to its owner can get you arrested for grand theft auto.
th00 you answered your own post-by not haveing a contract it boils down to he said she said. and it becomes the responsibility of the complaintent to show some kind of proof.
by law the driver of the truck is required to be paid for services.
so if a driver can prove money owed than driver can demand payment from shipper. shipper is required to pay driver even though shipper has already paid for that load to a carrier or broker. needless to say carrier will not be happy do to shipper being ****ed at carrier. if this happens much, it will get fleet owner dropped. so if owner doesnt pay i would advise carrier that you are going to bill their customer. this will defantly stur things up. you will not likely work for that carrier again
refusing to return a truck to its owner can get you arrested for grand theft auto.
th00 you answered your own post-by not haveing a contract it boils down to he said she said. and it becomes the responsibility of the complaintent to show some kind of proof.
by law the driver of the truck is required to be paid for services.
so if a driver can prove money owed than driver can demand payment from shipper. shipper is required to pay driver even though shipper has already paid for that load to a carrier or broker. needless to say carrier will not be happy do to shipper being ****ed at carrier. if this happens much, it will get fleet owner dropped. so if owner doesnt pay i would advise carrier that you are going to bill their customer. this will defantly stur things up. you will not likely work for that carrier again
No one is going to fight your battles for you. It takes time, effort and money to bring a civil case against someone but unless someone goes first, there is no safe way to deal with the issue in public. Once a case becomes an item of public record, it can be talked about in a careful manner to alert other victims to what is going on. Once you have a group of victims and documentation that actually proves that a crime was committed, you may be able to get a prosecuter's attention and/or arrive at a settlement with the fleet owner in question.
The world is full of disgruntaled drivers and their stories often change every time they are told. If you really want to do something about a crooked fleet owner that has multiple victims, you will have to rise to the level it takes to get it done.
The world is full of disgruntaled drivers and their stories often change every time they are told. If you really want to do something about a crooked fleet owner that has multiple victims, you will have to rise to the level it takes to get it done.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
First it is the problem that the drivers are at fault. They, like any other contractor needs to do;
- the Due Diligence to find out what they can about the owner
- protect themselves by getting the RIGHT tools - a lawyer and an accountant
- AND not to be desperate for money - which is the most important part of all.
IT is not the carrier's place to get in between two other parties who have an agreement, that is simply too much liability involved for the carrier.
Again, if someone investigates an owner, finds problems in their background, even financial issues, then the driver(s) should walk.
Actually this is not a crime where they will come after you. It is like not paying your credit card bill, they can take you to court, garnishee your wages or force a settlement on you but they can't throw you in jail for it.
See there is that term again "class action suit". Hey here is the thing, that has to be permitted by a judge and I can tell you in this case it will not be. This is an issue of money, not of wrongful death or mass fraud. AND if a judge would ever permit a frivolous lawsuit like this to happen, then what would be the outcome - everyone gets $50 each and their name mentioned in court.
Well think of it this way, this is my way of fighthing against these guys. By making a big deal about a contract, having to have others back it - maybe someone will get a clue and say to a perspective owner "where is your contract so my lawyer can look at it?" That may stop more BS from happening than threats of dragging them into court.
ftp000
Expert Expediter
Greg I'm sure you're a nice enough guy, and you seem to know a lot about this business as a whole, but on this subject you seem to be talking theory about something you've never experienced, the things you say sound good, in theory, but when they happen to you they really don't mean squat. No matter how much money I had in the bank when I started driving for this turd, it doesn't matter, he paid me weekly what I was owed, he kept up the truck and it passed the one DOT inspection we got pulled in for, I was warned right as we got in the truck (by the guy getting out, this was after the owner paid our way to orientation and for a hotel room the night before, so I felt obligated by his investment) that I would have to stay on him for pay, so I did, I made it clear from the start that if he messed with my money I'd bring the truck right back, he held no sway over me ever. he told us he'd reimburse weight tickets and truck washes, we weighed the truck one time, he didn't pay it back so the truck never got weighed or washed after that.
The only way he got us, the way that none of all of your due dilligence would have stopped was that because of what day we quit, it ended up he owed us 3 pay checks, we returned the truck and thought we parted friends, but when the next payday rolled around he stopped answering his phone and hasn't answered since.
The question is not was I too needy, or did I not check him out, or would a lawyer have helped, I kept him as honest as I could and had a decent reference for him, I also made him invest a little to get my wife and I to come drive. In the end none of that negates the fact that he owes us over 2600 dollars, and he shouldn't be left alone for stealing it. And I happen to know that in the last month 4 other couples have complained about this same guy to the carrier for the exact same thing, their comes a point where they become a part of the problem when they keep running people thru orientation for this clown, knowing that he intends to rob them, say what ever you want, its a matter of ethics.
I gather from your responses that you currently are an owner, or have always been an O/O, that makes it easy to see these things happening to others as cut and dry. They aren't
The only way he got us, the way that none of all of your due dilligence would have stopped was that because of what day we quit, it ended up he owed us 3 pay checks, we returned the truck and thought we parted friends, but when the next payday rolled around he stopped answering his phone and hasn't answered since.
The question is not was I too needy, or did I not check him out, or would a lawyer have helped, I kept him as honest as I could and had a decent reference for him, I also made him invest a little to get my wife and I to come drive. In the end none of that negates the fact that he owes us over 2600 dollars, and he shouldn't be left alone for stealing it. And I happen to know that in the last month 4 other couples have complained about this same guy to the carrier for the exact same thing, their comes a point where they become a part of the problem when they keep running people thru orientation for this clown, knowing that he intends to rob them, say what ever you want, its a matter of ethics.
I gather from your responses that you currently are an owner, or have always been an O/O, that makes it easy to see these things happening to others as cut and dry. They aren't
transporter
Expert Expediter
ftp0000 as i already posted if you have proof ie signed bills and have not been paid. and if your owner isnt claiming you owe him for what ever reason. than notify carrier that you will be demanding payment from the shipper. this is assuming you have givin owner enough time to pay you. again you wont likely work for that carrier again. however if you are not going to follow through than dont do this
I am sorry, but your chances of that being successful are slim and none.
Why? Because a lease operator doesn't have any Federal Operating Authority where the carrier in which he is leased does. The shipper has no obligation to pay you anything and would refer your request back to the carrier. If the shipper already paid the carrier, you can't go and recollect. You have no contract with the shipper. You are acting as a agent for the carrier. That language is likely in your fleet owners contract with the carrier.
You could go to court, but ultimately, you would have to sue the fleet owner. That is with whom you have your contract.
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transporter
Expert Expediter
ftp00 both ateam and gregg gave you good unbiased advise.
i do understand your frustration. there are drivers and o/o's that have been treated bady out there. greg hit on several of the problems in this post and other post. drivers dont (even though they dont half to) get a contract read it, and have lawyer go over it. this will protect you from any harm but it is a real good start. there simply is no GOOD reason to not have a contract. and what has also been said, alot of drivers base their choices out of desperation (not having enough money in reserve)
one thing not mentioned is there has been alot of drivers come into this business that are their own worst enemy but blame everybody else (owner cheated me, carrier doesnt keep me moving) but if you listen long enough a blind man can figure out why driver is having a rough time and it aint the carrier or owners fault. because of this knowledge carriers dont want to get involved in disputes with drivers and owners.
i guess greg could have said what he did with more compassion for your situation. but than again i dont think he was just talking to you. he was trying to help alot more people before they get in your position. as ateam said nobody is going to fight your battles for you. no
now evaluate yourself.----- was i wronged by owner
if yes,------- do i fight for whats right or do i take it and learn from my mistake.
only you can answer this
i do understand your frustration. there are drivers and o/o's that have been treated bady out there. greg hit on several of the problems in this post and other post. drivers dont (even though they dont half to) get a contract read it, and have lawyer go over it. this will protect you from any harm but it is a real good start. there simply is no GOOD reason to not have a contract. and what has also been said, alot of drivers base their choices out of desperation (not having enough money in reserve)
one thing not mentioned is there has been alot of drivers come into this business that are their own worst enemy but blame everybody else (owner cheated me, carrier doesnt keep me moving) but if you listen long enough a blind man can figure out why driver is having a rough time and it aint the carrier or owners fault. because of this knowledge carriers dont want to get involved in disputes with drivers and owners.
i guess greg could have said what he did with more compassion for your situation. but than again i dont think he was just talking to you. he was trying to help alot more people before they get in your position. as ateam said nobody is going to fight your battles for you. no
now evaluate yourself.----- was i wronged by owner
if yes,------- do i fight for whats right or do i take it and learn from my mistake.
only you can answer this
transporter
Expert Expediter
davek its been awhile since reading the regs but it said the driver is entitled to be paid for a load delivered. that you couldnt hold load hostage neither could pay be withheld do to shortages or damages. truck must be paid than a claim would be made for losses.
you are right it ussualy only used when a crooked broker doesnt pay carrier. even thought broker was payed carrier can demand payment from shipper. this is why double brokering is so frowned apon by shippers
you are right it ussualy only used when a crooked broker doesnt pay carrier. even thought broker was payed carrier can demand payment from shipper. this is why double brokering is so frowned apon by shippers
transporter
Expert Expediter
but to be honest it wil be along hard fight and cost you more money than load paid if shipper fights it. court cost and all.
but the carrier doesnt want to ruin its situation with shipper over this. they will get witrh owner and resolve this and if enough legit complaints comforward owner is done with that carrier.
but the carrier doesnt want to ruin its situation with shipper over this. they will get witrh owner and resolve this and if enough legit complaints comforward owner is done with that carrier.
The driver may be entitled to be paid, but it won't be through the acts of recovery you mentioned. If a broker failed to pay the carrier, then of course the carrier would go after that broker in which they had contracted to do the load. That is partially why they raised the bond on brokers because many were failing or slow paying shipments.
transporter
Expert Expediter
yes, a carrier can file against broker bond but they can also direct bill shipper. they were trying to raise broker bond to $100,000 but have not heard that pass yet. did it pass.
the way it was worded what i read was the driver is entitled to be paid.
the way it was worded what i read was the driver is entitled to be paid.
ftp000
Expert Expediter
well that's just plain crazy talk! A carrier contracts with the shipper, the carrier contracts with the owner of the truck, and I contract with the owner and the carrier as an independant contractor to carry the freight, their are 2 contracts between me and the shipper, and even if there weren't, your solution is the suicide solution. I like driving for this carrier, it's the owner/fleet manager who sucks, them I'll go after. Not the shipper who no doubt paid their bill.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Well here is the thing, don't assume it is theory. Everything I wrote about has been practiced in one form or another for the past 15 years. I won't get into the different situations, but this advice seems to work for everyone who takes it.
Managing a fleet of trucks for the past year has taught me more about the desperation of the driver than I never knew. I think this is a downfall of this entire industry. It is the driver(s) who are at fault for falling for the BS, not the one's who are spreading it. The carriers have a hand in it, from my point of view, there should not be any van fleet owners and I say that because it is a cheap vehicle to get into with thin margins.
BUT with that said, this is business, it has to be treated as business and not saying in any way you are wrong in your actions or even questioning them. I asked a simple question and expected a simple answer, wasn't going to and won't use you as an example of what not to do. However it is the guy/gal who is reading the 'positive stuff' and reading about this money being made by those who are boasting of their Success at the same time have either lost their job, want to try something different expecting to make replacement income, need extra money or what ever and want to jump into this with both feet. That is the target of my message.