RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Doin' just fine .... I've had other fish to fry ....
Two Wins for FREEDOM!
- Thread starter layoutshooter
- Start date
Again, I did NOT EVER DO ANYTHING IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT WAS DANGEROUS TO OUR CONSTITUTION! NOR DID I BREAK ANY LAWS.
IF you have PROOF other wise, please post it.
AS I HAVE STATED TIME IN AND TIME OUT, WHEN I GOT THE FIRST ORDER THAT WAS IN VIOLATION OF THE CONSTITUTION, ISSUED BY BILL CLINTON, I RESIGNED! That order was given to use US assets that, under US law, was not legal to use against US citizens. Because I lived up to my oath I will not likely never be able to retire. I gave up my career. I lived up to my principles, which then, and mow, more important than my financial security.
Now, does that make it clear?
Countering the threat from SS-25's in no way hurts or is in any way against my oath to protect and defend the Constitution.
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Why would you construct the strawman above .... and then spend so much time afterwards trying to argue it ?
I never said that you broke any laws .... or that you personally did anything that was dangerous to our Constitution ....
.... I merely pointed out that you had been part of an organization, and a larger community, that had ....
Due to the practice of compartmentalization and "need to know" within the intelligence community, there are probably many, many things that you are unaware of .... just like the rest of us ....
Of course, if anyone were aware that any of these assets that you refer to were actually used against US citizens, it would be nice to see it condemned ....
Of course, such a condemnation should naturally include the agency that did it.
For that you have my admiration .... not that it's worth all that much (if I had the coin, I'd buy ya the boat ..... but only if I could come along and go fishin' too
..... it was a center console right ?)It never was cloudy ....
No argument from me on that ....
Why would you construct the strawman above .... and then spend so much time afterwards trying to argue it ?
I never said that you broke any laws .... or that you personally did anything that was dangerous to our Constitution ....
.... I merely pointed out that you had been part of an organization, and a larger community, that had ....
Due to the practice of compartmentalization and "need to know" within the intelligence community, there are probably many, many things that you are unaware of .... just like the rest of us ....
Of course, if anyone were aware that any of these assets that you refer to were actually used against US citizens, it would be nice to see it condemned ....
Of course, such a condemnation should naturally include the agency that did it.
For that you have my admiration .... not that it's worth all that much (if I had the coin, I'd buy ya the boat ..... but only if I could come along and go fishin' too
It never was cloudy ....
No argument from me on that ....
What you are missing is that the 'larger community' was not at fault, ever. A few individuals, mostly political appointees, were.
The control of those who DID do wrong came from the Congress and Presidents.
MANY agencies were tasked with the 'so called' anti drug work by Bill Clinton. His justice department sent the tasking to the agencies. Targets included only selected drug cartels and any possible American's involved. Other know cartels and the possible American's involved were NOT to be targeted.
100% of all tasking, legal or other wise, was controlled by the civilian government.
Hundreds quit the Agency at the time I did.
I did not quit for anyone's 'admiration' and expect nothing for doing what was right. It was, however, a tiller steer boat and you are always welcome out on the "Straights of Detroit' for some walleye fishing with me.
Also much of what people have thought about the intell agencies is just so wrong it is funny! My wife and I always get a good 'chuckle' when we see how Hollywood depicts NSA.
I posted a link a while back when they declassiifed the KH11 program. The stories that were out there about that program were just,well, silly. Funny, now that it is all in the open so to speak, no one seems to step up and admit how wrong they were.
I looked up an 'area' I used to have to visit from time to time on the net. VERY funny stuff!! Not even CLOSE to reality. That 'area' is still in operation so I won't go into locations. the part I used tho have to attend meetings in was 7 or 8 (cannot remember which now) stories below ground. It was a COOL place! I had LOTS of battles in there. Even won one once. Not easy to do. I was 'up against' the big guys. One for three there.
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Yeah .... we wuz just followin' orders ...
Sorry, but that don't work for me (.... and it didn't work too well for them dudes that wound up in the dock right in Nuremberg after WWII either ....)
From my perspective, at the point where one becomes aware where there is wrongdoing by an organization or entity which one is a member of, it is incumbent on one to act to correct it and to act to ensure that those responsible for the wrongdoing are held accountable), or failing to do so, to leave (as you did)
Anyone failing to do either of the above, while being aware of such wrongdoing, is themselves criminal.
Well, since you have personally seen the abuse (or potential for it) up close and personal, I would think you - of all people - would ultimately understand where it's all heading (and as a consequence, would speak out):
Originally created to spy on foreign adversaries, the NSA was never supposed to be turned inward. Thirty years ago, Senator Frank Church, the Idaho Democrat who was then chairman of the select committee on intelligence, investigated the agency and came away stunned.
"That capability at any time could be turned around on the American people," he said in 1975, "and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn't matter. There would be no place to hide."
He added that if a dictator ever took over, the NSA "could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back."
"I don't want to see this country ever go across the bridge," Senator Church said. "I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return."
"I don't want to see this country ever go across the bridge," Senator Church said. "I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return."
And that was back in 1975 .... the potential for abuse is far worse today ...
Civilian .... military .... makes no difference to me ...
All of 'em are part of the government ....
I can handle the other citizens who might pose a threat to me or mine (who are relatively few in number, in comparison to those who don't) ... the government however is another matter entirely ....
Oh, I understand .... however who or what I choose to admire is my call .... and mine alone ....
Excellent !It was, however, a tiller steer boat and you are always welcome out on the "Straights of Detroit' for some walleye fishing with me.
I dunno about what most people, other than myself, have "thought" about the intel agencies .... I've seen all kinds of opinion out there ... some of which appears well-informed and reasonable ... and some which is quite outlandish ....
I do know that there is a substantial amount of evidence on the record - much of it as a consequence of declassification, some as a consequence of whistle-blowers (and victims), some as a consequence of very creative use of the FOIA - and mistakes on the part of agencies in "improperly" releasing things that they later really wish they hadn't - that indicate that the intelligence community has been involved in some the most sick, heinous, and barbaric crimes man has ever seen .... in many cases against unwitting US citizens, without their consent or knowledge ....
I rarely get a "good chuckle" out of what I look at which pertains to the US intel community .... possibly because it doesn't come from "Hollywood" .... more often than not, it's from their own (often previously classified) docs ....
To be completely honest, I tend to look at your comment above (and the rest pertaining to it which I didn't bother quoting) as an effort to misinform and misdirect .....
That's something that the intel community is particularly well known for .... for very good reasons ....
Perhaps you have no ulterior motive to do that .... and it's all just entirely innocent opinion .... dunno ...
Last edited:
Yeah .... we wuz just followin' orders ...
Sorry, but that don't work for me (.... and it didn't work too well for them dudes that wound up in the dock right in Nuremberg after WWII either ....)
From my perspective, at the point where one becomes aware where there is wrongdoing by an organization or entity which one is a member of, it is incumbent on one to act to correct it and to act to ensure that those responsible for the wrongdoing are held accountable), or failing to do so, to leave (as you did)
Anyone failing to do either of the above, while being aware of such wrongdoing, is themselves criminal.
Well, since you have personally seen the abuse (or potential for it) up close and personal, I would think you - of all people - would ultimately understand where it's all heading (and as a consequence, would speak out):
Originally created to spy on foreign adversaries, the NSA was never supposed to be turned inward. Thirty years ago, Senator Frank Church, the Idaho Democrat who was then chairman of the select committee on intelligence, investigated the agency and came away stunned.
"That capability at any time could be turned around on the American people," he said in 1975, "and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn't matter. There would be no place to hide."
He added that if a dictator ever took over, the NSA "could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back."
"I don't want to see this country ever go across the bridge," Senator Church said. "I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return."
And that was back in 1975 .... the potential for abuse is far worse today ...
Civilian .... military .... makes no difference to me ...
All of 'em are part of the government ....
I can handle the other citizens who might pose a threat to me or mine (who are relatively few in number, in comparison to those who don't) ... the government however is another matter entirely ....
Oh, I understand .... however who or what I choose to admire is my call .... and mine alone ....
Excellent !
I dunno about what most people, other than myself, have "thought" about the intel agencies .... I've seen all kinds of opinion out there ... some of which appears well-informed and reasonable ... and some which is quite outlandish ....
I do know that there is a substantial amount of evidence on the record - much of it as a consequence of declassification, some as a consequence of whistle-blowers (and victims), some as a consequence of very creative use of the FOIA - and mistakes on the part of agencies in "improperly" releasing things that they later really wish they hadn't - that indicate that the intelligence community has been involved in some the most sick, heinous, and barbaric crimes man has ever seen .... in many cases against unwitting US citizens, without their consent or knowledge ....
I rarely get a "good chuckle" out of what I look at which pertains to the US intel community .... possibly because it doesn't come from "Hollywood" .... more often than not, it's from their own (often previously classified) docs ....
To be completely honest, I tend to look at your comment above (and the rest pertaining to it which I didn't bother quoting) as an effort to misinform and misdirect .....
That's something that the intel community is particularly well known for .... for very good reasons ....
Perhaps you have no ulterior motive to do that .... and it's all just entirely innocent opinion .... dunno ...
It would be interesting to find out the percentage of people in the intel agencies that you believe went 'bad'.
When I was talking about how my wife and I often get a good laugh it was at the 'Hollywood' idea of what the Agency was like. The way they portray the 'toys' that we used is beyond funny. They never even get close. Even when portrayed in a good light, like on NCIS, it is outlandish.
It is a hard job. High stress, little to no reward. There is often not even the 'personal satisfaction' of completing the job. It never ends. People in that business die young, very young, compared to the general population.
I am not saying that the 'just following orders' thing is a valid excuse. I am saying that it often difficult to know when lines are crossed. Most agents are NOT lawyers. There is no possible way to know, in ever case, when that happens. Most of the time, as in the Clinton orders, it was clear. Easy call. Many times it was not.
I also know, for a fact, that at least when I worked there the restrictions placed on us made it almost impossible to do the job that the Agency was meant to do. It is difficult to explain.
Keep in mind, I spent more that 20 years in that business, it was my career. I am VERY proud of my service. I am VERY proud of the work that I did. I am VERY proud of the people I knew and worked with. Never, and I mean never, have I spent time with so many dedicated, honest, hard working people.
Also keep in mind that many, by no means all, 'whistle blowers' are not the most upstanding of individuals. Many, like the author of the "Puzzle Palace" were people who were NOT good at their jobs, were passed over for promotions, and other wise, lacking. I did not know that author, I DID know two of his naval supervisors. The stack of 'paper' for his inabilities and trouble making was a mile high. One 'whistle blower' that I knew, I was his supervisor, liked to not show up for work. He was often drunk when he bothered to show up. His 'uniform' , he was in the Navy, often consisted of Micheal Jackson outfits, including the 'glove'.
It took almost a year of documentation to get him booted out of the Navy. When it FINALLY happened he got on to his congressman about Agency abuses. It was a joke. A proper waste of time and money. The 'investigation' took almost as long as it took to get that bum his rightly deserved dishonorable discharge, cost the taxpayers a fortune, and proved only that he was an idiot. At least he was not smart enough to go to the press, or his 'claims' would have been deemed, 'real and evil'
Yes, the potential for abuse is real, VERY real. No one knows that better than me. It is going to occur, and on a daily basis. It would NOT surprise me on bit if it is not already happening. That is just ONE of the reasons that this president is gutting the agencies and military, to insure that HIS KIND OF SLIME is working there.
I remember Frank Church. NO 'investigative committee' is good if it has a predetermined goal. It is one thing to provide needed and required oversight. The congress is ALWAYS lacking in that. It is totally another to ASSUME wrong doing then set out to prove it. Pretty good show he put on. That was during the time he was running for president, got him self a LOT of free campaign time. Still lost to Carter.
Your the one tricked. Yes, soda does exist. Yes, soda is better than straight or diluted poison. No, the diluted poison isn't guaranteed to kill you like the undiluted is. The problem is that soda isn't always on the menu and some of the times that it is on the menu it's there as a mean trick not as a legitimate option. Soda should always be preferred. It should always be desired. The problem is, if you choose the soda at the wrong time the evil powers substitute the undiluted poison after you've made your choice. If you opt out of choosing they force the undiluted poison on you as well. Knowing when the soda is only a tease is the key to avoiding guaranteed death.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
I'm curious layout, you don't have to answer this but when there was a threat to the US internally by one group or another, and with foreign connections, the intel agency under several administrations spied on those threats. I am wondering if you understand that the organizations that you were part of broke the basic laws of our country under the guise of security?
AMonger
Veteran Expediter
Wait, are we talking about the analogy or real life? Because you can shape the analogy to your whim but real life is kind of fixed. In real life, both the straight poison and the lesser poison will kill us, and dead is 100% regardless of whether it's intentional strychnine poisoning or an infection that sets in after a splinter and gets out of control. And yes, Dr. Paul is whatever non-poison you care to name in your analogy, and you could have had him if
you and the rest of the public hadn't been duped into believing you couldn't.
That truth will be extra bitter when we have to show our papers to walk down the street, or when a loaf of bread costs $5000.
--
You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Ummm ... I'd like to suggest that in your replies, (this one appearing, as near as I can discern from using various thread display modes, to be to a post in reply to LOS - something that seems rather unlikely, even if one is able to decipher any possible meaning from the gibberish I've quoted above) that you somehow reference who or what comments you attempting to address in your commentary.
Beyond that, the only thing I can offer is:
1. "24" has been cancelled/not renewed ....
2. "Jack Bauer" and the incidents depicted in show were never "real" ....
3. If it is currently airing in syndication, just turn off the TV, put down the remote, and step away .... at the barest minimum, consider changing the frickin' channel ...... mebbe try Animal Planet or something ....
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
I think it would be far more interesting to know the actual facts surrounding criminal activity on the part of not only the intelligence community, but the government generally, against it's citizens.
Of course, I'm sure there's much of it we'll never know - because there is a history of the inmates that were running the asylum at the time destroying the evidence (or illegally withholding it), or being less than responsive to oversight (not that many in Congress are overly interested)
Naturally, most criminals seek to hide their crimes - "National Security", being a phrase that tends to generate lickspittle in many, is one way that tends to be fairly effective.
If you wanna have a little look at the history of some of this stuff try the following link (WARNING: it may make you think twice about accepting any "treatment" from the Veterans Administration):
Human medical experimentation in the United States
CIA Director Bill Colby, who appears to be maybe have been one of the ones that was at least somewhat inclined towards honesty, may well have been snuffed .... so he ain't gonna be writing a book or talkin' ....
Speaking of idiocy, I had CSPAN on this morning and caught a little of a couple of military 'tards (an Army and a Navy guy - lotsa bars and stars) up on the Hill testifying to a Senate committee .... it was like these guys were channeling Westmoreland ... all about how wunderbar it was over in Afghanistan and how we were "winning" ..... (just don't mind the frickin' IED's and riots of course)
YES SIR ! ... CAN DO ! .... HOO-RAH !
Of course neither of those putzes will be attending and having their limbs blown off .... however I am fairly certain that they would be quite willing to send your kids - or mine - over there to do so ...
Again with the "Hollywood" meme ... do you not understand that this sort of activity on your part comes across (from my perspective) as a deliberate attempt at mis-direction? I fail to understand why you are so fixated on it to the point that you nearly always raise it (in an apparent effort to discredit any knowledge in the public domain) whenever there is a discussion of this nature in regards to the criminality of the USG (intel in particular).
FWIW, beyond seeing a minute or two (at most) while channel-surfing (itself a fairly rare occurrence) I have never seen an entire episode of either "24" or "NCIS" ... I simply don't have any interest.
I might however have been to known to frequent various medical libraries at institutions of higher learning, pulling published papers on studies (of human experimentation) - and then, with others, tying that to back to stuff available (either in the public domain or obtained through the FOIA) to see all manner of interesting things (like who it was that was funding the studies ....)
Once ya figure out who the players are, you have a path .... and it gets a lot easier to pull the string ..... it just sorta builds on itself.
Same deal with the Feds .... ya know: ya file FOIA requests with multiple agencies in the alphabet soup group .... and when Agency "A" tells ya they ain't got nuthin' .... but then ya get a response from Agency "B" that shows yes indeedy, there is docs .... and Agency "A" just happens to be on the distribution ....
Well then, Agency "A" now has a little problem ... and is often suddenly afflicted by better memory ....
Sometimes it gets even better - ya get docs from both - but the redactions are different - so between the two ya get far more info than you may have ever gotten from either one alone ....
Find the threads and pull .... until the ball unravels ...
Allow me to break out my fiddle ....
Life's tough - we all make choices that we ultimately have to live with ... I know that I'm sure living with mine.
I understand - and I can see who might be true in certain circumstances ..... but I can assure you that while the above may have been true for whatever you were involved in, the above is definitely NOT TRUE .... when it comes to other things you have not been involved with or had any knowledge of ....
BTW, I've had a look at USSID 18 (redacted version) - I get what you're saying about clarity as to when lines are being crossed and agents not being lawyers.
Having that said that, it's my position that the present level of sophistication of technology in the wrong hands will ultimately result in tyranny. It's also my position that, at present, there are no "right hands" ....
Well, "blowback" happens for all kinds of reasons .... abuse by a relative few bad apples is probably one of them .....
I got what you're saying.
Do you wish me to comment further on what you have just said immediately above ?
Far be it from me to claim that they were all saints ....
A good example was Daniel Ellsberg - the man who was an "analyst" at RAND and released the Pentagon Papers (and thought by some to a hero) - probably very few people know that in 1961 he was in Vietnam and working with the CIA ICEX "special ops" program - which was the forerunner to the "Phoenix_Program" - which essentially was a program of kidnapping, brutal interrogations, and assassinations that targeted civilians ....
You know - fun stuff like this:
Military intelligence officer K. Milton Osborne states he witnessed the following use of torture:
"The use of the insertion of the 6-inch dowel into the canal of one of my detainee's ears, and the tapping through the brain until dead. The starvation to death (in a cage), of a Vietnamese woman who was suspected of being part of the local political education cadre in one of the local villages ... The use of electronic gear such as sealed telephones attached to ... both the women's vaginas and men's testicles [to] shock them into submission."
No .... no illusions here ...
Yeah .... well .... it's interesting given these deficiencies, that the NSA ended up decided to use The Puzzle Palace as a core textbook in its Defense Intelligence College ...... and ultimately hired Mr. Bamford to teach a class there ...
And the latter might just say a little something about their standards for employment ....
Of course, given all of the above, Bamford may not be what he appears to be .... (... a disinfo tool .... rather than solely an investigative journalist with altruistic motives)
But now compare that with the criminal psychotic lunatic (and former CIA Director) Richard Helms ..... who "went along" with Johnson's request to criminally meddle overseas in order to be a "good soldier" .... who ordered the destruction of all docs related to Project_MKULTRA (which essentially documented some of the most horrific crimes the CIA was involved in, involving human experimentation) ..... and subsequently was convicted of lying to Congress (but of course he only got a slap on the wrist - $2000 fine and suspended sentence)
Fortunately for the rest of us - the ones that aren't completely nutso and are relatively normal, sane individuals (not infected by the "national security" disease), not all of the documentary evidence was destroyed - and in '77 about 20,000 docs got uncovered thru FOIA (but that was conveniently after the Church Committee and the Rockefeller Commission IIRC) ....
So we have at least some idea how far the truly whacked-out will go in their efforts to keep the "boogey man" away ....
Was Helms dedicated ? .... undoubtedly ...
Hard-working ? ..... I'd imagine ...
Honest ? ... not even close ... but I'll bet he would have said that he was ...
I can think of whole host of adjectives to describe "Dirty Dick" Helms ... none of them in the least complimentary .... subhuman, anti-American scum might be good for starters ....
A glove eh ? .... heavens .....
Geeze ... yeah, sounds like a really bad and evil guy ....
I'm talking about criminal violations of civil and human rights (including the loss of life - or murder) ..... and you're talking about people's apparel and their medical problems (alcoholism) ...
Are you frickin' serious ?
As the Anon's would say: .... docx ? (as in you got documents ?)
There's a lot of that that occurs .... these days most of it is agit-prop and mis-info - supplied or planted by the government itself ...
The CIA has a long history of being in bed with American media ...
FWIW, I'd probably trust RT (Russia Today) before I'd trust American media when it comes to covering matters related to the USG (but not when it comes to Putin or Russia)
Well then, at least we're on the same page on that ....
Of course it's happening ... it is the nature of the thing ... it's been happening the entirety of my life ... and that's better than half a century.
Sorry - but if you are expecting to engage me in any kind of a reasonable conversation by using the hyperbolic language above you are very sadly mistaken.
The president's proposed 2013 budget for the military is $525.4 billion - a one percent reduction from current year spending.
The president's proposed 2013 budget for intel is $52.6 billion - which is about equivalent to what is approved for current year spending.
That ain't "gutting" .....
The fact is we are broke .... and the attempted use of hysteria as regards to any reduction in funding to military/intel branches is just a non-starter ....
That's an unfortunate choice of words .... it would have been far better had you said:
"NO 'investigative committee' is good if it has a predetermined outcome - of anything less than ascertaining the truth."
I'll assume that's what you really meant - say that I'm onboard with it with ya.
..... often because of the Executive Branch and the intelligence community itself is unwilling to be honest and straight ..... (See Richard Helms above)
Of course, Congress being the gutless scum that most of them are, don't really want the responsibility either ....
By the time Church got going it was already fairly widely known (publicly) that there was wrong-doing .... the only question really, was:
How much ?
Fact is there were areas that Church avoided (apparently intentionally) - same as the Rockefeller Commision later did .....
They didn't go "there" ..... because of the effect that it would have had - there would have been absolutely no doubt whatsoever in the mind of the American public that our government (or more accurately: large portions of it) was thoroughly criminal and corrupt ....
To a large a degree most of the public knows it .... it's just that they don't have the nut to really look at it and see it for exactly what it is ...
Better just to go along with the rest of the herd .... cheer the troops .... go shopping at Walmart and get "stuff" .... then come home and watch the NFL or something ...
Last edited: