Thoughts on the new HOS rules.

louixo · Jan 6, 2004

I must have posted this on the wrong forum first time around, as it ended up in the newbies forum. I´ve been lurking for sometime on this issue, because there is so much confusion. Now that the enforcement has started, I hope that the enforcement experiences will be posted here on EO, and on this forum. My personal thoughts are, that the new rules were as well thought out as any bureaucratic major change, and will be refined as they find out where the new rules are lacking. Also, as with any change, you can´t please everybody. The efficient operations will adapt and flourish, the inefficient ones will flounder until they do adapt, or they will go down the tubes. The powers that be, are NOT going to back off on these new rules. There have been some good posts, and good points brought up on the whys and wherefores, and the main one in expediting is, that many seem to think the single driver will suffer. I don´t. If the new rules lead to fewer loads because of mandatory shut downs, when a driver reaches his hours of service limits, I think that the shippers and receivers will have to compensate, if they want to use expediting, and it will make them more efficient in the future if they want to improve thier bottom line. That should improve our(drivers) bottom line too. The business changes will not happen overnight. But, I think it will all shake out in short order. There is opportunity in change, and the better operations will figure out where that opportunity is, and I personally think there will be more expediting freight in the short term, because of mandantory shutdowns in general freight hauling, and it hopefully will continue into the long term. I´m reminded of the air controllers strike several years ago, when controllers thought that thier union PATCO was the "tail that was going to wag the dog". The Secretary of Transportation said they would fire everbody that didn´t comply. So did the then president Reagan. On national TV. I had a friend at the time, a senior controller who didn´t beleive that could happen, and he and his comrades thought chaos would reign supreme at the nations airports, and that would bring the government to it´s knees. Thereby giving in to the unions demands. They all thought PATCO would overcome. PATCO didn´t, and all were fired. I mean ALL..across the nation. Though this is not the same scenario, trucking is a critical industry, and if they say the new rules are so, that will be the order of the day, until further notice. No, ifs, ands , or buts. I , for one, look forward to the change, and am looking for that opportunity I mentioned, for the reasons I mentioned.

MattMO · Jan 6, 2004

I like you think it will take some shakedown time and some fine tuning will probably be done as well. I can envision some senarios that would be a real problem for the driver but at the same time I keep thinking that if you cant make a living with a 14hr day....thats a problem the industry will eventually be forced to resolve. Yep there will be some issues and incomes may even suffer but I think that once the dust settles things will work out to the benefit of the driver.(I hope)

D Green · Jan 7, 2004

I hope things work out, but today, I got bit by the new rules. (I've decided to attempt to run by them for the first 30 days)

Did a Houston local this morning, three hours, started at 6:30. At 4pm, had a call for a hot load to Baton Rouge, would have taken a minimum of 6 hrs, no go. Would have been out of the 14 hr clock at 8:30 pm. I was at home, so no sleeper time was logged. Penalized for being at the house, resting.

I know I joked of loose-leaf logs, but there will come a time...

Dennis

geo · Jan 7, 2004

we all have to write letters and say this is our problem and also
give ans to questions we are asking that will help fix the problem

i run local in hampton roads area of virginia , and to do runs i have
i log 4 hours of sleeper time each day and then come home
park truck in driveway and finish up 6 hours in sleeper and than
go in house and finish the 10 hours of off time i need

from ooida if you use sleeper time at any time you have to compete sleeper
time example 2 hours in sleeper you have do 8 more in sleeper
to make up 10 hours of sleeper time
it cracks up the hood, they can't believe, but letter of the law

Weave · Jan 7, 2004

That is where loose leaf logs or running a computer log book program come in handy, you could have just switched the time at home to sleeper berth to hold the 14 hour clock, who would have known if you were at home or in your sleeper? Then you could have ran the load safely and legally on your books. I am not one who condones breaking the rules, but if the rules are stupid rules written by stupid people, you have to find smart ways to work around them if you want to keep your job and keep making money. The safety is all up to you, and always will be. That log book does not drive your truck. I for one know I can get better rest at home than in my truck, so I judge that rule as stupid on behalf of safety and will work around it if I have to. Whatever it takes, I am not going to coward down and give up a job I like for that log book rule. If it means cheating, then cheating it is... like the title of that movie "Catch me if you can."
When these lawmakers wake up and realize that truck driver fatigue IS NOT the top cause of big truck accidents, then maybe I'll respect them. By the way, speeding and too close of following distance are the top causes.

-Weave-

Weave · Jan 8, 2004

Just change that 6 hours of sleeper berth time you "finish up" to 10 hours of sleeper berth time Geo, and you are good to roll another 11 hours of driving without having to log the additional 10 hours off. Just gained you 6 legal hours;-)
-Weave-

davekc · Jan 8, 2004

I think the new rules were designed around lobbying and state revenues. It sure wasn't around safety, common sense, or even a basic knowledge of how the trucking industry works. Look at any other typical government program and see how well it works. Pretty much the same results.

Weave · Jan 8, 2004

DaveKC wrote: "I think the new rules were designed around lobbying and state revenues."
I think he is exactly right. It looks like the government is pretty set on not allowing these log rules to change at this point. That 14 hour rule is like prohibition- everyone is just going to cheat and break it, and the only way it will end up getting dropped is when enough people go to court and fight its lack of sense there.
-Weave-

Just read an article http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-01-05-truckers_x.htm where the makers of this rule estimate it will save a whopping 75, yes 75, lives a year. I know every life is important, but that does not sound justified to me for what this law is costing business. Some better enforcement of the current laws, such as speeding, (not only for trucks but 4 wheelers too) will save a lot more than 75 lives without wrecking havoc on an entire industry or costing billions of dollars. This article also stated that fatigue related fatal truck crashes only account for 3-6% of all truck accidents. That says to me they could have just left well enough alone-it's like they are trying to fix something that isn't broken.
The new rules were designed around revenue potential only.

D Green · Jan 8, 2004

Weave, I agree whole-heartedly. This rule will *not* work in the hot-shot industry. There are too many split days, an early load, then a hot call to a rig/plant later in the evening. Cannot be done, legally, with the 14hr clock.

I am currently building a flat-bed for one of the 3/4t pick-ups to salvage some of the lighter, wider, drilling rig freight (we haul a lot of clutchs & brake bands)

There will be a lot of audit failures amongst us folks, I imagine. And I don't think the market will bare the additional rates we will need to offset this fiasco. Too many large companies can hire new drivers to make up the lost hours, never mind the driver won't make any money.

May be time to return to the big trucks.

Time will tell.

Dennis

davekc · Jan 9, 2004

Team operations will have some advantages, but will still have to be creative in some situations. If a team runs 5 on and 5 off, on the next set, you are past the 14 hr. rule by one hour. We may try 6-4-4. Kind of a pain, especially on those west coast specials. Our carrier says they are allowing 5 & 5 logging. We will have to see how states react to that. There are some states that I am not sure are going to let one get away with that. One driver on the team would be illegal on a 5 & 5 split. The only other way is to stop for that hour or two, for one to recover on sleep time. The 6-4-4 is the only one I think that will work.

mcbride · Jan 10, 2004

Hi davekc,

I don't read the new rules the way you do...suprise! Ha ha. The way I see what your saying teams could not run over a 700 mile run. The way we are working it is A drives for 5, sleeps for 5, while B is driving, A then drives again for 5 while B then sleeps for 5. Thus, each team member has fulfilled the 10 hour sleeping rule so you can keep on running. Just think if you wanted to run a 2000 miles...If we had to work as a team within the rules the way you are stating teams would have no real advantage over solo's. For what is worth that is the way we are working within the new HOS rules.

mcbride-

davekc · Jan 10, 2004

maybe I am confused. With the 5 on and 5 off you would meet the sleep requirements. But, you would be in violation of the 14 hour rule. Third 5 hour period would put you over by one hour.
Am I understanding this right if a team ran 5 on and 5 off?

RichM · Jan 10, 2004

This past week we ran from Jacksonville FL to ElPaso Tx using the 5 on 5 off rule.The way I understand it is that the split sleeper time gives you a total of 10 hours off which then resets the 14 hour clock. We normally run 5 on 5 off but sometimes 8 on 8 off and sometimes when real tired do 4 on 4 off.Can!t do that anymore. Number one topic of conversation on the CB and in the truckstops was the 14 hour shutdown rule. Somehow I don!t think it will last.

davekc · Jan 10, 2004

ok, I am still confused. I thought you could not exceed 14 hours in the 24 hour period. 14 hours on duty and 10 hours sleeper. Since you are split/breaking the sleeper period I quess does the clock restart after a total of ten hours of sleeper? I am getting alot of different answers on this.

RichM · Jan 10, 2004

The way I understand it is that the clock restarts after a 10 hour sleeper break. The 10 hours can be split but must have a minimum of 2 hours per break.I think you can also take sleeper and off duty time provided it is consecutive to restart the clock. What a hell of a mess this nonsence is. How can organizations like PATT and Crash that probably have no more than 500 members dictate to the world and change the lives of 4 milllion hard working truckers.Blows your mind for sure.

Weave · Jan 11, 2004

Rich wrote:
"I think you can also take sleeper and off duty time provided it is consecutive to restart the clock."
Nope, that's the stupidness of this rule, and what the fight is over. You can split up sleeper time for at least 2 hours to stop the 14 hour clock, but it (14 hour clock) restarts once you start driving again unless you take a full 10 hours in the sleeper or 10 hours off duty. Off duty time can not hold the 14 hour clock, only sleeper berth. And then after all the "holding up" one does taking naps, etc with sleeper berth time to complete their 11 hours of driving, a full 10 hours in the sleeper OR off duty is required. Off duty will not hold the 14 hour clock from running.
-Weave-

OntarioVanMan · Jan 11, 2004

http://www.ontruck.org/info/information/HOS/
and some good news!

http://www.truck.net/showdetail/rec_id/1432
January 5, 2004

‘Twas the night before Christmas, but before the Canadian Trucking Alliance and the provincial trucking associations departed for the holidays, official word was received that the Council of Canadian Deputy Ministers Responsible for Transportation and Highway Safety approved the introduction of a sleeper berth exception to be incorporated in the Canadian proposal for a revised hours of service regulation.

The news was welcomed by Canadian Trucking Alliance CEO and OTA president, David Bradley, who said “it was the right thing to do. It makes the Canadian proposals more compatible with the new US rules; it will avoid putting Canadian carriers and drivers in an untenable situation; all without compromising safety.”

It is now expected that the sleeper berth exception will be duly approved by the Council of Ministers when they meet later this year. (The governments’ have indicated they want a final regulation written by September).

While this is a significant decision and one the associations worked hard to achieve, Bradley said their are still a couple of items that “need to be addressed” especially to avoid a situation where a driver’s driving time is compressed into a fixed window (it’s presently 14 hours in the US) and some rest time (e.g., when waiting to be unloaded) will not count for anything. “It’s important to carriers and to drivers that they get the rest required by the regulations, that they adhere to the new maximum driving/working times, and that they not be button-holed into a subjective, fixed window which would preclude them from maximizing their driving time.”

davekc · Jan 11, 2004

so if I am understanding this correctly, the 5 0n and 5 off would put you in violation of the 14 rule. You would be over one hour on the 3rd 5 hour drive period. Plus, you have not had 10 hours of straight sleeper time. I was so confused on this and our company says technically you are in violation with doing 5 and 5. They are not sure after this 60 day grace period as to what states are going to enforce this. What a pain!!! The only other way for this to work is to do 6-4-4 and be exactly legal.

RichM · Jan 11, 2004

As far as I understand it and with all that I have read ,the sleeper berth time of 10 hours resets the 14 hour clock to zero.So if you drive 5 hours,sleeper for 5 hours,drive 5 hours,sleeper for 5 hours the 14 hour clock starts up again.