The Trump Card...

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
As I suggested above, the talking heads on TV tend to over-interpret election results and impute more to the factual results than is actually there. Whatever happens in any election, numerous opinions are shared about what it means, and, often, the line between fact and opinion is blurred. Partisan enthusiasm often gets the better of these folks and rational, balanced analysis gives way to hyperbole. I try to be responsible in my posts by making it clear when I am rendering an opinion and stating a fact, and I try to monitor my emotions and desires to make sure they do not blind me to the facts or produce baseless interpretations of them.

Looking ahead to the mid-term elections of 2018 for US House and Senate, I believe it is reasonable to assume that the Democrats will do better than the Republicans. It may be reasonable to believe that the Republicans may lose the House to the Democrats, and maybe even the Senate. I was not willing to say so yesterday but after reading this piece I am.

It's not a piece about Trump or any other president in particular. It's about the history of mid-term elections and how they play out. It seems that since World War II, it has ALWAYS been the case that the party in power loses seats to the opposition in mid-term elections. What varies is the number of seats and there is a direct correlation between that number and the incumbent president's popularity numbers. The less popular the president is, the greater number of seats turn over.

When Trump supporters hear of polls that indicate Trump is less popular than previous presidents, they often dismiss the polls, pointing to the 2016 polls that predicted a Hillary win. Or they'll dismiss the poll based on the flawed methodology, questions or whatever else they see wrong with it.

That's fine at the ordinary-citizen level. It's NOT what the candidates and political operatives do. I can tell you from personal experience that Washington is a political data-obsessed town. It does not matter where you are -- hotel lobbies, conferences, the tunnels under the Capitol, Georgetown bars, office conference rooms, wherever -- the political professionals are talking politics ... constantly. No detail is too small. No rumor is too crazy. No opinion is not heard. They seldom talk to each other about family, sports and the weather. They talk shop 18 hours a day. They go to sleep and wake to the political news. Their antennas are always up and they're always looking for more info.They want to know that the senator is thinking. They want to know what the elevator operator is thinking (some high-end hotels have them in Washington).

While people on the street might easily dismiss a poll, the candidates and political professionals make their living by continually pouring over the data, comparing it to other data, generating even more data by initiating private polls.

The poll that has their attention now is Election Day, 2017, and the number very much on their minds is Trump's job approval rating or other popularity indicators. In a word, things don't look good for the Republicans in 2018, and the candidates and political professional know it.

With these facts in mind, what's a seated Republican legislator to do?

Some have already answered that question by announcing their retirements or decisions to not run again. That's an indicator to keep an eye on. If the number of such announcements increase above normal levels, it's an indicator of discouragement and a Republican unwillingness to face the voters.

That does not mean other Republicans will not step in to run for that seat. It does mean that Republicans will lose the advantages of incumbency in that state or district race. History shows that a candidate who already holds the office has a huge advantage over the challenger who does not. The more Republican legislators choose to not run again, the better it is for Democrats.

Some Republican operatives might dismiss the importance of that saying they are protected by gerrymandered districts (districts where the boundary lines are drawn to assure Republican majorities, and thereby assure a Republican-favorable outcome). They have a point. But it's also true that very-same gerrymandering can produce an election-year disaster if the Republicans in those districts become disappointed, disgruntled or discouraged.

I think we saw some of that in Tuesday's elections. The Democrats showed surprising strength in suburban districts, usually a place where Republican support is assured. The political professionals are certainly noting this fact and taking it into account.

So, if you are a Republican legislator who is not retiring and wishes to get re-elected, what is one to do? In an environment where Trump's approval rating is near all-time lows, and has consistently been lower than predecessor presidents at comparable times in office (first month, first 100 days, first year, etc.), one solution may be to get rid of Trump by impeaching him and bring in Pence.

Trump is not running for reelection in 2018. All US representatives and some US senators are. Far more than they care about saving Trump's skin, they care about saving their own.

Because of Tuesday's election results, the likelihood of Trump's impeachment is higher today than it was on Monday.

Having said that, I acknowledge that if you're a hammer, all the world looks like a nail. My central theme in this Trump thread is my prediction that he will be impeached. That opinion influences my perception of the facts. People see things in different ways. Where a two-job night-shift worker sees a sunrise and concludes it's time for bed, a well rested pastor will take the very same sunrise as a cue to praise the Lord.

I'm an impeachment-believing guy and that belief influences my interpretation of the facts. That said, the facts are indeed the facts, and they support the impeachment scenario, do they not?
 
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Turtle

Administrator
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Retired Expediter
That said, the facts are indeed the facts, and they support the impeachment scenario, do they not?
They do not. Please list the names of presidents who have been impeached due to low polling numbers.

So far, since Trump's inauguration, the special elections and this off-year election have produced no real surprises. The chances that the party in power will lose the House in the first midterm election are pretty high, and it's even possible that the Republicans will lose as many as 2 seats in the Senate. That's simply what history and the electoral map most strongly indicates. Neither of these outcomes will be earth-shattering or impeachment-inducing. When Democrats start winning in places they should not be winning, and Republicans start losing in places they should win, like Montana and North Dakota, people can cite a referendum on Trump and his polls as the cause.

When drawing conclusions from polling results, it would be wise to temper those conclusions with the simple fact that Trump has changed Washington more than Washington has changed Trump. Those (Republicans especially) steeped in swamp stink are having great difficulty in adapting to the new environmental changes.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Are these the same groups of polls that had slick willy's wife ahead of Trumpet before the election

The pollsters who predicted Hillary's win got it right. She won a clear majority of the popular vote. They got it wrong about the Electoral College but they were not as off target as their critics like to say.


She got what was predicted as far as liberal states. Mainly New York and California. She did very little in the middle of the country. That so far hasn't changed. Low poll numbers are only based on who was polled. Bush got pretty low in 08 and there were no impeachment hearings. If you even look at the house in Washington, they are still promoting his agenda. If he was on the verge of impeachment, just don't think you would see any cooperation.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Hillary was leading in the polls before the election in all three states: Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. Pollsters who predicted her victory there got it wrong big time.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
That said, the facts are indeed the facts, and they support the impeachment scenario, do they not?
They do not. Please list the names of presidents who have been impeached due to low polling numbers.

I’m not saying low presidential poling numbers cause impeachment and I think you know that. I am saying, that in the unique case of Donald Trump, they will be a contributing factor.

Mid-term elections are widely considered to be a referendum on the incumbent president. That impacts 2018 races because there is no president to vote for or against. People have only their votes for state and district candidates with which to express their approval. While many voters obviously vote for particular state and district candidates based on those candidates themselves, many other voters use these elections to express their approval or disapproval of the president then in office.

As shown in my post above, since World War II, it has ALWAYS been the case that the party of the president looses seats to the opposition in mid-term elections. How many seats are lost depends on a number of factors in combination.

At present we are seeing a high number Republican legislator retirements compared to past history and a super-high number of them compared to Democratic legislator retirements. It’s a phenomenon called “strategic retirements” that is explained here. These retirements are directly attributable to Trump’s low popularity. That low discourages Republicans and inspires Democrats.

In such a context, the idea of getting rid of Trump by impeaching him becomes more and more attractive to Republicans who desire to retain their seats and control of the House and Senate. They are this instant seeing Trump’s negative impact in the form of strategic retirements. Wanting to get re-elected themselves, the option to impeach is becoming more viable. With Trump out and Pence in, the low popularity issue can be resolved.

With a pro-impeachment vote on the Republican candidate’s record, he/she can boast to the voters that he/she stood for what’s right and placed principle over party.

Some Republicans will remain loyal to Trump to their dying day but for a successful impeachment vote their numbers won’t matter. The Democrats will vote to impeach. Those votes combined with some Republican votes will do the job.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I’m not saying low presidential poling numbers cause impeachment and I think you know that. I am saying, that in the unique case of Donald Trump, they will be a contributing factor.
It's certainly an interesting theory (wish, hope, fantasy, etc.) but there's nothing in history to support such a theory. Like you said, unique.

Mid-term elections are widely considered to be a referendum on the incumbent president.
Only by those who's party is not in the White House. The party of the White House loses seats in both chambers within a predictable range. Unless that range is blown up, and the party in the White House picks up a significant number of seats in both chambers, or the party not in the White House picks up an astonishing, unprecedented snotload of seats, then whatever happens means pretty much "nothing to see here, move along."

shown in my post above, since World War II, it has ALWAYS been the case that the party of the president looses seats to the opposition in mid-term elections.
Kinda blows that whole 'referendum' theory out of the water, doesn't it? Unless, of course, you can make the claim that every president since WWII was so bad that the voters voiced their displeasure during the midterms.

At present we are seeing a high number Republican legislator retirements compared to past history and a super-high number of them compared to Democratic legislator retirements.
Yes, it's a phenomenon called "draining the swamp" that is explained here.

It’s a phenomenon called “strategic retirements” that is explained here.
No, it's really called "draining the swamp." The strategy of quitting and giving up your seat in Congress in order to retain your seat in Congress is a strategy that could only be dreamed up by someone in Congress. These are the same people who will shoot off their foot to prevent their foot from being shot off. These are the same people who would destroy the Democracy thinking that by doing so is the only way to save the Democracy.

These retirements are directly attributable to Trump’s low popularity.
Really? Is that news or opinion? The reason I ask is, you state it like it's an irrefutable fact. I also ask because I haven't heard a single person who has announced their retirement that they are doing so because of Trump's low popularity.

You have some people, like Jeff Flake, who are leaving because they suck at their job and can't get reelected. And you have others who represent rock-solid Republican districts where they are a virtual lock to get reelected, but are leaving because the swamp stink no longer pleases their olfactory senses (they're having too much trouble getting their way, and don't want to have to work hard to get it, so they're taking their bat and ball and going home).

In such a context, the idea of getting rid of Trump by impeaching him becomes more and more attractive to Republicans who desire to retain their seats and control of the House and Senate. They are this instant seeing Trump’s negative impact in the form of strategic retirements.
Like I said before, retiring and giving up their seat is the exact opposite way to retain their seats and control of the House and Senate. These people retiring and giving up their seats have zero shot at getting reelected, mainly because they've announced they aren't running for reelection. It's weird, I know, but that's how it works.

Wanting to get re-elected themselves, the option to impeach is becoming more viable. With Trump out and Pence in, the low popularity issue can be resolved.
There are several problems with this theory, not the least of which is, the very people you think believe impeachment is a viable option to deal with Trump's low popularity problem are people with significantly lower popularity than Trump. And that's an even bigger problem for them than it is for Trump. With an impeachment of their own party's president on their record, they have zero chances of being reelected themselves. Absent Trump committing a high crime or misdemeanor, and I don't mean one that the Democrats come up with, or one that Mueller manages to cobble together out of soot and aluminum foil, but rather one that has his own base angrily demanding his head on a pike, Republicans who vote to impeach Trump would be committing political suicide (and maybe some broken ribs of their own while mowing the lawn).

With a pro-impeachment vote on the Republican candidate’s record, he/she can boast to the voters that he/she stood for what’s right and placed principle over party.
Such boasts would only play to Democrat voters. For Republican voters, they would demand the boaster pull the trigger of the gun he's holding to his head while boasting.

Some Republicans will remain loyal to Trump to their dying day but for a successful impeachment vote their numbers won’t matter. The Democrats will vote to impeach. Those votes combined with some Republican votes will do the job.
Don't underestimate the reluctance of a significant number of Democrats to impeach a president. They know full well that an impeachment in the absence of a blatant impeachable transgression would result in being viewed as an attempted coup d'etat which would spark a civil war, and liberals know who owns the guns.
 
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Turtle

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I'm willing to bet as many liberals own guns and in some areas more
How much you willing to bet? :D

In 1976, 50 percent of Republicans, 48 percent of independents, and 45 percent of Democrats owned a gun. That changed in the 1980s and 1990s. By 2000, 30 percent of independents and only 27 percent of Democrats reported having a gun in the home. That drop continued among Democrats; by 2016, only 23 percent owned guns. Meanwhile, Republican gun ownership has stayed fairly constant. In 2012, 54 percent of Republicans owned guns.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
It's certainly an interesting theory (wish, hope, fantasy, etc.) but there's nothing in history to support such a theory. Like you said, unique.

Exactly right. It's unique and it certainly qualifies as a theory or fantasy. I would not call it a hope or wish because I do not maintain an impeachment hope or wish. I'd call it an expectation.

If I was going to hope or wish for anything regarding Trump it would be that he ate healthier, slept better, exercised more; and thereby gained the benefits those behaviors produce. I'd further hope or wish that he stop Tweeting and found a way to overcome the narcissistic personality disorder I believe he has. And I'd further hope or wish that he would develop a sense of ethics such that the conflict of interest issues I also believe he has could be resolved.
 
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Turtle

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Retired Expediter
The really unnerving and disturbing thing (for many people) about Trump is, he's doing the things he campaigned on. People don't know how to process that because we've never seen it happen.

Jobs are coming back, the number of people working are up, unemployment is down, ISIS is on the run, border security is up, illegal immigration is down, immigration reform is happening, tax reform is happening, health care reform is still a work in progress, improvement in trade are happening, world leaders take us seriously now, and koi fish fear us.
 

Worn Out Manager

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Air Force
The really unnerving and disturbing thing (for many people) about Trump is, he's doing the things he campaigned on. People don't know how to process that because we've never seen it happen.

Jobs are coming back, the number of people working are up, unemployment is down, ISIS is on the run, border security is up, illegal immigration is down, immigration reform is happening, tax reform is happening, health care reform is still a work in progress, improvement in trade are happening, world leaders take us seriously now, and koi fish fear us.
Is pot legal in KY now?

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Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
but-american-jpg.136934
 

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
Seriously, what the heck is that all about? Didn't we go through this Honest Putin crap with Bush.
Trump can't be serious, can he ....?
Depends on the news outlet you read.

CNN Reports Trump said: "Every time he sees me he says, 'I didn't do that,' and I really believe that when he tells me that. He means it."

What Trump actually said: "Every time he sees me he says, 'I didn't do that,' and I really believe that when he tells me that, he means it."

CNN reports that Trump believes Putin. What Trump actually said was that he believes Putin believes what Putin is saying.
 
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