The Trump Card...

ATeam

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Our posts crossed each other as we each wrote and posted. Please see my edited post above. Main question, how exactly does one match "a healthy economy" with a presidential election result? When you say, "healthy economy" what do you mean exactly?

Part of my problem with this is "the economy" is such a broad term. It can mean nothing or everything, depending on the speaker's intent. To have a proper discussion about this, is it not first necessary to define what we mean by "the economy?"
 

ATeam

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Retired Expediter
Regarding the effect of "the economy" on election results, I came across this interesting piece, "Which Economic Indicators Best Predict Presidential Elections?"

Excerpt: "The first thing to notice is that no individual economic variable has an r-squared higher than .46, meaning that none [of the economic indicators] can explain more than half of election results in the post-war period."
 

Turtle

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Main question, how exactly does one match "a healthy economy" with a presidential election result? When you say, "healthy economy" what do you mean exactly?
Well, GDP and overall economic growth is a better indicator than the unemployment rate, but more than that, "a healthy economy" correlates most closely to psychological mood of the people in general. That mood can be, and often is (especially in an election year) manipulated, as all thing psychological are wont to be. But in particular, economic "experts" can proclaim the economy is bad, or certainly will be soon, and that consumer confidence is down, or will be soon, and little by little it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, thanks to businesses and consumers latching onto the fear and uncertainty and suddenly stop spending and/or expanding. This can happen when all of the classic economic indicators show the opposite, and in a good economy. Election years in and of themselves do not have a negative effect on the economy, except for the fact that copious amounts of news reports of doom and gloom suddenly start appearing in an election year, particularly when such reports can hurt the incumbent (or the incumbent of the party). It's fascinating to watch, albeit predictable.

So, by "a healthy economy" I mean the perception of the voters. In polling, if the question asked is "Do you think the economy is on good shape?" or "is headed in the right direction?" If the answer is NO, whoever gets the credit or the blame for that perception will have a very tough time winning the presidency. Couple a NO answer with with "Who is better qualified to handle the economy?" and there's your likely winner.

All throughout the campaign, economists (who are wrong at an astonishing rate) overwhelmingly (two-thirds) preferred Clinton or Johnson to Trump. Yet the voters preferred Trump by the same staggering proportions in polls throughout the campaign. And exit polling by voters showed that the same two-thirds of all voters thought A), the economy was bad, and B) Trump would handle it better than Hillary (90-something for Republicans, 50-something for Democrats).

To have a proper discussion about this, is it not first necessary to define what we mean by "the economy?"
Well, I'm not all that certain I want to have a proper discussion on this topic, because while it is somewhat interesting to me in the psychology of the social science realm, it's mostly boring (both for me and I would imagine nearly everyone reading this thread). And I don't think a proper discussion will end with any kind of agreement, as the entire topic is more one of an ongoing intellectual pursuit of study than anything.

But since you asked, as with most intangible things, particularly opinions, it can mean whatever you want it to mean. I look at the perception of the populace, and at the newspaper headlines during the campaign, and draw my conclusions accordingly. If the populace perceives the economy to be good or bad, then that's what it is. And people vote their psychological perceptions.

There are, as I said, plenty of exceptions to this. For example, even if the economy at the time was the bestest of the best, both in reality and in perception, there was no way Jimmy Carter was going to be re-elected.

Between Trump and Hillary, Trump clearly has more (perceived) experience in handling an economy, so between those two it seemed like it would be, and was, a slam dunk. Having said that, both Hillary and Trump were perhaps the two luckiest major party presidential candidates in history, as each was running against the only person they could have beaten. <snort>

Excerpt: "The first thing to notice is that no individual economic variable has an r-squared higher than .46, meaning that none [of the economic indicators] can explain more than half of election results in the post-war period."
Excellent example of the aforementioned studies that go to great tortured lengths to dispel the conventional wisdom, in the quest to academia-ize it with some magical mathematical formula that can be a quantifiable predictor.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
So, by "a healthy economy" I mean the perception of the voters. ...

But since you asked, as with most intangible things, particularly opinions, it can mean whatever you want it to mean. ...

Your interest is in social science, mine is more inclined toward hard data. You're right. A meaningful discussion about the effect of "the economy" on presidential elections is impossible if we cannot agree on the objective standards that would set the context for such a conversation.

Excellent example of the aforementioned studies that go to great tortured lengths to dispel the conventional wisdom, in the quest to academia-ize it with some magical mathematical formula that can be a quantifiable predictor.

The aforementioned article lays things out quite clear. The writer selects a number of economic indicators and studies their relationship to subsequent election results. While he does not talk about "the economy" in a larger sense, he does a pretty good job in demonstrating that no economic indicator has predictive value regarding an election outcome.

You want to talk about sentiment and psychology and that's fine. As a former financial professional who maintained a daily awareness of economic indicators, I found the piece to be informative, credible and fascinating.
 
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Turtle

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So, by "a healthy economy" I mean the perception of the voters. ...

But since you asked, as with most intangible things, particularly opinions, it can mean whatever you want it to mean. ...

Your interest is in social science, mine is more inclined toward hard data. You're right. A meaningful discussion about the effect of "the economy" on presidential elections is impossible if we cannot agree on the objective standards that would set the context for such a conversation.
The only way you're going to get hard data is by using fractal equations.

Excellent example of the aforementioned studies that go to great tortured lengths to dispel the conventional wisdom, in the quest to academia-ize it with some magical mathematical formula that can be a quantifiable predictor.

The aforementioned article lays things out quite clear. The writer selects a number of economic indicators and studies their relationship to subsequent election results.
I never said things weren't clear. Every writer and study that uses economic indicators ends up with a very clear argument and result.

While he does not talk about "the economy" in a larger sense, he does a pretty good job in demonstrating that no economic indicator has predictive value regarding an election outcome.
Correct. That's more or less what I've been saying here. No economic indicator can predict the sociological and psychological process that happen in the voting booth. It would certainly be nice to plug the numbers into a logical algorithm of (If A and B, then C, therefore D) to predict an outcome. But that's more or less what they did to predict Hillary's landslide victory.

You want to talk about sentiment and psychology and that's fine. As a former financial professional who maintained a daily awareness, I found the piece to be informative, credible and fascinating.
The piece is certainly all of the above, but just because no economic indicator can be used as a reliable predictor for an election outcome, it doesn't mean that reliable predictors do not exist elsewhere, outside of the hard data of economic indicators. It is, afterall, the sociological and psychological factors of the people that create the economic indicators in the first place.

People are actually quite predictable if you know where to look and what to look for. Human nature under a given circumstance and stimulus, along with history, can be used very effectively to predict an expected reaction.
 

Turtle

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Tell me he didn't really say that..... !

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I take it you didn't want the interview. In the interview, it was very clear what he was talking about. Of course, some of The Press, like The Washington Post, spin it as Trump wanting to consolidate his power, pretty much bypass Congress altogether. Others have spun it to mean Trump thinks the Constitution itself, which defines the three branches of government, is archaic.

He was talking about, specifically, some of the rules of the Senate and the House, and because of those rules the inability of Congress to get things done with any semblance of common sense. The full quote of, "But I think, more than anything else, I'm a person of common sense. I understand what has to be done. I get things done. I've always been a closer. We don't have a lot of closers in politics, and I understand why. It's a very rough system. It's -- it's an archaic system. You look at the rules of the Senate, even the rules of the House -- but the rules of the Senate and some of the things you have to go through, it's -- it's really a bad thing for the country, in my opinion. They're archaic rules.

Contrary to what the Cracker Jack Constitutional journalists at the Post, Times and others in The Press (and too many in the public) think, the Constitution doesn't prescribe most of the "archaic" rules in the Senate and the House. There are Formal rules and Procedural Rules, almost all of which have been put in place and evolved over time only in the manner that a government-run operation can come up with. Everything the government has its hands in is screwed up, and the more they have their hands in it, the more it's screwed up. And there's nothing the government has its hands in more than the Congress. A smooth operation, a well-oiled machine, Congress is not.

The archaic rules of Congress is how we wind up with a lot of feel-good legislation that doesn't really do what it started out to do, packaged mostly with unintended consequences that end up making things worse, not better.

"I think the filibuster concept is not a good concept to start out with. If you're going to filibuster, let somebody stand up for 20 hours and talk and do what they have to do, even if they are reading comic books to everybody, let them do it. With so many bad concepts in our rules, it's forcing bad decisions. Decisions that nobody wanted are made because of archaic rules. That's something I think we're going to have to change."
 
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Ragman

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Tell me he didn't really say that..... !

Twitter
I take it you didn't want the interview. In the interview, it was very clear what he was talking about. Of course, some of The Press, like The Washington Post, spin it as Trump wanting to consolidate his power, pretty much bypass Congress altogether. Others have spun it to mean Trump thinks the Constitution itself, which defines the three branches of government, is archaic.

He was talking about, specifically, some of the rules of the Senate and the House, and because of those rules the inability of Congress to get things done with any semblance of common sense. The full quote of, "But I think, more than anything else, I'm a person of common sense. I understand what has to be done. I get things done. I've always been a closer. We don't have a lot of closers in politics, and I understand why. It's a very rough system. It's -- it's an archaic system. You look at the rules of the Senate, even the rules of the House -- but the rules of the Senate and some of the things you have to go through, it's -- it's really a bad thing for the country, in my opinion. They're archaic rules.

Contrary to what the Cracker Jack Constitutional journalists at the Post, Times and others in The Press (and too many in the public) think, the Constitution doesn't prescribe most of the "archaic" rules in the Senate and the House. There are Formal rules and Procedural Rules, almost all of which have been put in place and evolved over time only in the manner that a government-run operation can come up with. Everything the government has its hands in is screwed up, and the more they have their hands in it, the more it's screwed up. And there's nothing the government has its hands in more than the Congress. A smooth operation, a well-oiled machine, Congress is not.

The archaic rules of Congress is how we wind up with a lot of feel-good legislation that doesn't really do what it started out to do, packaged mostly with unintended consequences that end up making things worse, not better.

"I think the filibuster concept is not a good concept to start out with. If you're going to filibuster, let somebody stand up for 20 hours and talk and do what they have to do, even if they are reading comic books to everybody, let them do it. With so many bad concepts in our rules, it's forcing bad decisions. Decisions that nobody wanted are made because of archaic rules. That's something I think we're going to have to change."
No, I didn't see the interview. I just ran across the tweet.
Thanks for the clarification.
;)
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
He was talking about, specifically, some of the rules of the Senate and the House, and because of those rules the inability of Congress to get things done with any semblance of common sense. The full quote of, "But I think, more than anything else, I'm a person of common sense. I understand what has to be done. I get things done. I've always been a closer. We don't have a lot of closers in politics, and I understand why. It's a very rough system. It's -- it's an archaic system. You look at the rules of the Senate, even the rules of the House -- but the rules of the Senate and some of the things you have to go through, it's -- it's really a bad thing for the country, in my opinion. They're archaic rules.

This is an understandable comment, the sentiment of which is probably shared by any president who feels obstructed by Congress. It would be a stretch to imply from these words that Trump has it in mind to somehow undermine the Constitution or the system of checks and balances it provides. We could gain more insight into Trump's view of the Constitution if he offered specifics about the system changes he'd like to see, but in the words quoted above he does not.

Regarding Trump and Congress, his approach toward Congress seems to be mostly passive. He wants Congress to do this and that but, unlike his predecessors, he is not approaching Congress with specific bills for them to take up. I understand that the president does not introduce bills. Senators and Representatives do that. But in previous administrations, the White House came to Congress with specific proposals that then became the basis for the debate that would follow. Previous administrations would find a senator or representative, or a group of them to sponsor a specific, fully-drafted bill they could all get behind. The Trump administration does not seem to be doing that. Thus my characterization of Trump's approach to Congress as "passive."
 

Turtle

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We could gain more insight into Trump's view of the Constitution if he offered specifics about the system changes he'd like to see, but in the words quoted above he does not.
Far as I know, the only thing in the Constitution that he's said he would like to change is to have term limits for Senators and Representatives, limiting members of the House of Representatives to three two-year terms and U.S. senators to two six-year terms.

"If I'm elected president, I will push for a constitutional amendment to impose term limits on all members of Congress. They've been talking about that for years. Decades of failure in Washington and decades of special interest dealing must and will come to an end.”

"He can push all he wants, but ultimately that's a campaign promise that Congress will not let him keep. “I would say we have term limits now. They’re called elections. And it will not be on the agenda in the Senate." - Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell

Personally, I'm a fan of congressional term limits. The Founding Fathers set things up so that the Senate would completely turn over every 6 years, and Representatives would come and represent their district for 2 years and then go back home to their regular vocations.

But it would take a joint resolution supported by two-thirds of both the Senate and the House, and then have the amendment be ratified by three-quarters (38 of 50) of the states in order to take effect. Politicians aren’t known for voting themselves out of office, so that's not gonna happen, because on the surface, such an amendment would mean half the current members of the House and Senate would ineligible to continue in office beyond the end of Trump’s first presidential term (assuming such a thing could happen even remotely that quickly, but regardless, half the members would necessarily be gone within 4 years). I do think that if such an amendment were put forth, it shouldn't apply to any current members of Congress at the time of the ratification, where they would be grandfathered in, so to speak, until such time as they lost the next election. It would take a few years, but eventually attrition would take care of it.

The only other way to get that done would be to go around Congress with a Constitution Convention, called by two-thirds of state legislatures. However, there are currently 27 amendments to the Constitution and not a single one of them has been implemented through a Constitutional Convention. Since that very first Constitutional Convention, in 1787, there has never been another. And a Constitutional Convention itself could bring all kinds of unforeseen consequences, because once convened, there would be no limit on the scope of the convention’s work beyond those it places on itself. It could literally rewrite the entire constitution.
 
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Grizzly

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I thought the only ones that would have expressed this sentiment towards Kim Jong Un were Dennis Rodman & Satan himself.

Trump referring to Kim Jong Un:

“If it would be appropriate for me to meet with him, I would absolutely, I would be honored to do it,” Trump told Bloomberg News in a Monday interview. “If it’s under the, again, under the right circumstances. But I would do that.”

Is this Trump at his best or where he falls short as POTUS?

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Ragman

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I thought the only ones that would have expressed this sentiment towards Kim Jong Un were Dennis Rodman & Satan himself.

Trump referring to Kim Jong Un:

“If it would be appropriate for me to meet with him, I would absolutely, I would be honored to do it,” Trump told Bloomberg News in a Monday interview. “If it’s under the, again, under the right circumstances. But I would do that.”

Is this Trump at his best or where he falls short as POTUS?

Sent from my VS987 using EO Forums mobile app
Honored? He would be Honored!

My God! I hope the trumpeters are proud!
 
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Turtle

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Honored? He would be Honored!
Honored to do what? Meet Kim? Represent the United States in a meeting with a foreign head of state? Honored to slam dunk him face-to-face? Honored to troll him like he does to reporters during interviews?

In the absence of those types of answers, let's just assume the most negative connotation. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Trump asks why we fought the Civil War, instead of trying harder to settle things without resorting to war. But people aren't having any of the "instead of," it's easier, and more satisfying, to just say Trump doesn't know why we fought the Civil War, that he's stupid, that he's ignorant of slavery.
 
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Worn Out Manager

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He enthralled with all the despots, From Russia, Turkey, North Korea, Phillapienes. He likes that they can speak and everyone follows, unlike here, although I'm sure he's working on it.

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Ragman

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Honored to do what? Meet Kim? Represent the United States in a meeting with a foreign head of state? Honored to slam dunk him face-to-face? Honored to troll him like he does to reporters during interviews?
Sorry, not this time.. I'm not buying this time.

Should FDR have met with Hitler? Kennedy with Castro?

I think not!

I hope the Trumpeters are proud.

Making America great again my ass!
,
 

Worn Out Manager

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By his words and actions he is making these regimes seem legitimate and empowering them to be more radical, at the same time spitting in the face of our allies that have joined us in an attempt to encourage these rogue nations to back away from the edge.

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Turtle

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Sorry, not this time.. I'm not buying this time.

Should FDR have met with Hitler? Kennedy with Castro?

I think not!
Trump said several times during the campaign that he'd talk to anybody. Doesn't hurt to talk. If you won't talk to someone it limits your options. If nothing comes from the talk, at least you gave it a shot.
 
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