I see. Youd think the company you run for would be a little more organized that that.
The S Word
- Thread starter Moot
- Start date
I see. Youd think the company you run for would be a little more organized that that.
my new carrier doesn't do QC I was referring to past history with my last 2 carriers...
Oh yeah, Blizzard made the comment. My bad, lol.
Don't worry about it....this site should sometimes be called ECO....
Expediters Confused Online......
Blizzard;
There's always a good reason why carriers have certain rules. Sometimes the rules are mandated by the government, sometimes the rules are "suggested" by the underwriting insurance company, and sometimes the rules just plain make good business sense by limiting the exposure to liability. I can assure you that no carrier just makes rules to blackball, mess with, limit income to it's drivers and owner operators [Gosh, I found myself wanting to use more street-wise well known verbage here
Why would an insurance company force a driver to take a break when they are not tired and then have them drive when they are tired? I have friends at panther who have to drive like maniacs and complete a 800 miles run like Moot just posted about just so they don't get swapped out. Some of them actually needed to stop for an hour or two for a break and they would have been safe to drive, but once they stop for a break they fall behind on the computer generated 50 MPH average. They end up driving the whole 16 hours just to keep the load. How is that safe? Why is it only safe for a big truck driver to drive 11 hours a day, but a cargo van driver can drive 16 hours before they need a break? If it was about safety, they would force the cargo van drivers to take a break after 11 hours of driving, and that break would be for 10 hours. That would eliminate a lot of the cowboy carriers and drivers out there. Why should there be two different sets of rules? Some of the crap NLM and other 3PL's pull on cargo van loads is just down right dangerous.
It might have even been the same person who told me to stop for a break who called me and asked me why I was stopped. lol. They had over 600 cargo vans back then. I don't think a small handful of dispatchers would even remember what is going on dealing with so many people. That is just how the big cat rolls.
I have driven 1000 mile loads and I have been wide awake. I have also struggled to keep awake on a 100 mile load and had to stop for a fifteen minute nap. Arbitrary rules and carrier implemented safety systems are not going to make drivers safer. What makes a driver safe is a driver knowing when he is tired and taking a break when he actually needs that break. What if a driver needs a 2 hour break 100 miles into that 800 mile load. Well, he can't take it, because he has to drive so far before he can take his five hour break and still have enough time to deliver the load on time (according to the computer system that is tracking his truck). How is that safe? What if the driver took a two hour break 100 miles into the load, then another three hour break after another 400 miles? What if the driver is not tired after sixteen hours and can't sleep? Is that safe? The only reason why Panther can do all of these swaps like they do is because they have 11 cargo vans sitting in very major city in the country. They have way too many vans to play around with. The smaller companies can't pull this sort of crap with their drivers. You can't regulate when a driver sleeps. That is all I'm trying to say!
Maybe carriers shouldn't book drivers on 1000 mile delivery direct loads. Also, there are no regulations on the amount of hours a cargo van can run, so driving 24 hours straight isn't really against the law. If I would have gotten into a wreck on that load to Arlington, the carrier would have still been found liable, because they forced me to take a break when I was not tired. Every carrier out there big and small runs their cargo van drivers like crazy and turns a bind eye to it.
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obviously they should ....John and other safety officers from other mid sized carriers should check on their own operations..it happens all the time....I don't consider 1,000 miles unsafe to say,,even at 50 mph thats 20 hrs....BUT even at a cruising 60 its 16.5 plus fuel time.....many years ago the average speed was calculated on 45 mph till someone got the bright idea to compete on the speed factor which I was verbally against back then..... bigger carriers for the most part are a POS and the downfall of this business and I stand by my opinion.
Blizzard, Moot and VanMan;
I always love your posts in EO. You three are very experienced expedite drivers who are very passionate about your career just as I have always been about mine. You also post with thought and knowledge - not just here-say. Makes me not only respect the van but some of you folks that drive them. Honestly some of you van drivers ask better regulatory and compliance questions than the drivers that are subject to the regulations.
I agree with you folks that DRIVERS should determine when they are tired and be able to take the breaks that are needed for them to become rested at that particular time. The Hours of Service Regulations do nothing to ensure drivers are well rested. The Hours of Service Regulations actually require drivers to continue to drive even when they are fatigued. Let's face it no "one size fits all" regulations can ever account for differences in individuals and differences in circumstances.
Again I am just trying to better explain to you about some of the behind the scenes reasoning why companies have to limit the van drivers because of exposure to liability.
I really do appreciate and respect you.
Thanks,
John
I always love your posts in EO. You three are very experienced expedite drivers who are very passionate about your career just as I have always been about mine. You also post with thought and knowledge - not just here-say. Makes me not only respect the van but some of you folks that drive them. Honestly some of you van drivers ask better regulatory and compliance questions than the drivers that are subject to the regulations.
I agree with you folks that DRIVERS should determine when they are tired and be able to take the breaks that are needed for them to become rested at that particular time. The Hours of Service Regulations do nothing to ensure drivers are well rested. The Hours of Service Regulations actually require drivers to continue to drive even when they are fatigued. Let's face it no "one size fits all" regulations can ever account for differences in individuals and differences in circumstances.
Again I am just trying to better explain to you about some of the behind the scenes reasoning why companies have to limit the van drivers because of exposure to liability.
I really do appreciate and respect you.
Thanks,
John
I completely understand....and its reasonable....one set of standards is almost and probably impossible to apply across the field...
It's appropriate that carriers protect themselves from lawsuits and as much risk as possible....
I would strongly suggest an internal study on just how dispatch handles long loads and see where you can minimize said risks...There are times one must just say no to a possible lawsuit in the making, if the appropriate van is not in the area to safely cover that load...in these tough times of steep competition I realize letting a long load go might not be the profitable thing to do....but to be seen as hypocritical about profit over safety only increases the doubt we drivers have about carriers...what we see is management policy vs dispatch operations....one preaches safety while the other hand is dispatching them out and crossing thier fingers....
I don't know how many times I've been asked the opening question with...Did you get enough sleep or Are you well rested?....we have this load.....if you must ask then IMO it shouldn't be even considered.
I don't have a problem with Panther's 16 hour. It's some of the stupidity as to how it is implemented that bothers me. Aslo, not being up front with actual delivery times.
I have done longer loads that deliver in the morning when the consignee opens for business. I have 18 hours to complete the load yet the 16 hour rule eliminates 2 hours I could use for resting. On these loads I ignore the 16 hour rule and stop when I want and pretty much do my own thing. For the most part dispatch leaves me alone and I like it like that.
I have done longer loads that deliver in the morning when the consignee opens for business. I have 18 hours to complete the load yet the 16 hour rule eliminates 2 hours I could use for resting. On these loads I ignore the 16 hour rule and stop when I want and pretty much do my own thing. For the most part dispatch leaves me alone and I like it like that.
Express 1 had a flex rule as well when it suited the purpose...how can you say $$$$$$$
Because there are two different sets of vehicles on the road - Regulated and Unregulated. The DOT regulates the vehicles that pose an unreasonable risk to the general public (heavy truck, buses, and HAZMAT). When a cargo van has an accident, the damage is pretty much the same as when a car, SUV or pickup has an accident, meaning cargo vans represent the same risk to the general public as the general public. Heavy trucks, buses and HAZMAT is a whole different deal, where most every accident is a major, devastating accident.
NLM and the other 3PLs need freight picked up and delivered at specific times. Whether the vehicle transporting the load is a solo or team is of no concern to NLM or other 3PLs. They don't have a cargo van load and think to themselves, "This needs to go on a team cargo van, not a solo." What they think is, "This needs to go a cargo van and get there on time."
I remember one time a dispatcher told me that I was making good time, already way ahead of the computer, so I had plenty of time to take a break whenever I wanted it. 2 shifts later the same dispatcher called me and said it needs to swap because I don't have tome for a break, and that whoever told me I did was crazy.
I also remember having a rare bad day and just went off on a dispatcher, really showed my ass on the phone (granted, it was because she was applying a rule in a hard and fast manner without using any common sense or intelligence, but still). It was embarrassing when I thought back about it. 2 hours later I ended up on the phone with the same dispatcher. I apologized for my earlier behavior, and she didn't have a clue what I was talking about. After I refreshed her memory, she said they don't have the time to let rants like that stay with them after the phone conversation is over, because they're already dealing with the next thing. So, basically, I was ranting to myself (and felt bad about it later for nothing LOL).
Loads up to about 750-800 miles, 50 MPH is fine. 750 miles is about 12 hours. But longer than 750-800 miles and there are additional fuel stops involved that take up precious time needed for naps along the way (if needed). That 1000 mile run is going to require 3 fuel stops, assuming you're full at the start. 3 fuel stops is 45 minutes at an absolute minimum, but more likely it's an hour or more. So you're looking at closer to 18 hours to get it there inside ot 20 hours. If you need a 2-3 hour nap because you're tired, or to prevent you from becoming fatigued, there's no time. If the load had been scheduled at 45 MPH, it would be 22:15 hours instead of 20, which gives you 4 hours to spare, leaving time for a 2-3 hour nap and still time to get it there, even accounting for construction and other delays.
Longer loads, like 1500 miles, booked at 50 MPH is 30 hours. Actual driving time at 60 is 25 hours, plus at least an hour for fuel stops, and you're at only 4 hours to spare for sleep on a 30 hour run. That's crazy. Book it at 45 MPH and you end up with 33.5 hours scheduled, with 7.5 hours to spare for getting the sleep necessary along the way, whether it's 5-6 hours in one whack, or 3 hour and then 2 hours to break it up.
Panther dispatchers are required to leave their common sense and intelligence in the car when they get to work. If they fail to faithfully implement a hard and fast rule, they get in biiiig truble.
and state safety laws will allow for a double shift at 16 hrs deemed safe with even less break for a machine operator or a lift truck operator maybe even the one unloading us......many a time I did a week of double shifts....all legal by government standards.....
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Well, there are federal OSHA regulations that come into play.
Blizzard..its the wild world of expediting, where anything goes, its a free for all....you have to realize the membership here might, might be like 1% of the total active drivers out there....our opinions and thoughts mean nothing...
I am not getting any deeper we've discussed this to death.....driving tired, exhausted is just plain silly...but I am not going to tell anyone what their personal limitations might be...they want to do it, be my guest....
we are all free to chose the carrier that best meets our driving style and needs....
now going for a nap..I drove 39 miles today and I am whacked....
we are all free to chose the carrier that best meets our driving style and needs....
now going for a nap..I drove 39 miles today and I am whacked....
I am not getting any deeper we've discussed this to death.....driving tired, exhausted is just plain silly...but I am not going to tell anyone what their personal limitations might be...they want to do it, be my guest....
we are all free to chose the carrier that best meets our driving style and needs....
now going for a nap..I drove 39 miles today and I am whacked....
Pretty sure I beat you at 40 miles from the coffee pot and back.