The Clown in Chief

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Cannot be infringed upon unless and until at least 2/3 of the House of Representatives and 2/3 of the Senate agree to consider an Amendment to a standing amendment or 2/3 of the States agree to a Constitutional Convention to consider a change to the Amendment. Not a fallacy.
In other words, cannot be infringed upon unless you change the current conditions, parameters or context. Having to change the conditions in order to make you assertion true is a logical fallacy.

The phrase exists. yes.
Then all you have to do now is understand and acknowledge its meaning.

Who said it can change on a whim?
Everyone who has ever encountered or possessed an opinion knows full well that opinions can change on a whim.

I said it can be changed. It can.
What you said was, "Constitutional provisions aren't necessarily meant to exist unfettered or unrestricted." That's the statement I addressed, and it's an incorrect statement with regard to the one solitary Constitutional provision which specifically does not allow restrictions of any kind.

'Infringed" by definition is an absolute. That is not to say that word cannot be infringed upon using the official procedure outlined for a Constitutional Amendment. I suppose we could argue semantics if you want to.
It's not semantics. Semantics is the study of meaning, and you're using one thing (Constitutional Amendment) to mean something entirely different (apply future hypothetical conditions to the context of current conditions). If the official procedure is used to change the Second Amendment to allow for infringement of the right to keep and bear arms, then the "shall not be infringed" would no longer apply. It becomes a meaningless point, since by definition, it would no longer be an infringement. We would be discussing completely different conditions at that point.

What you are arguing is:

Parameters: "You can't eat a pineapple whole."

You: "Well, I can if I cut it up into smaller pieces!"

Semantics is understanding the parameters of a wholly in-tact pineapple to incorrectly mean the same as an entire pineapple in some other state of being.

True. So the question then remains should there be any restrictions?
Absolutely not. It doesn't say "shouldn't be" or "in most cases probably shall not" or even "may not," it's "shall not." Shall is an obligation, a must, an involuntary directive not open to defiance or contravenes, in the case of the Second Amendment, an obligation directive to not do something for which no exceptions are made. It is an absolute, and therefore there should be no restrictions.

That's not to say that society shouldn't be able to deal with certain individuals who demonstrate they are a danger to others by having arms. There are crazies who shouldn't be allowed to have a fork or a hammer, too. And we deal with those people appropriately, individually. What we don't do is outlaw forks and hammers because of the actions of a few crazies.
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
In other words, cannot be infringed upon unless you change the current conditions, parameters or context. Having to change the conditions in order to make you assertion true is a logical fallacy.

Well that's an entirely different animal now isn't it? This would mean infringement is, as you say, conditional and subject to revision. If it were truly an absolute there would be no "unless".


Everyone who has ever encountered or possessed an opinion knows full well that opinions can change on a whim.

Yes they can but in this case it was not a whim.

What you said was, "Constitutional provisions aren't necessarily meant to exist unfettered or unrestricted." That's the statement I addressed, and it's an incorrect statement with regard to the one solitary Constitutional provision which specifically does not allow restrictions of any kind.

An Amendment is itself a restriction.

It's not semantics. Semantics is the study of meaning, and you're using one thing (Constitutional Amendment) to mean something entirely different (apply future hypothetical conditions to the context of current conditions). If the official procedure is used to change the Second Amendment to allow for infringement of the right to keep and bear arms, then the "shall not be infringed" would no longer apply. It becomes a meaningless point, since by definition, it would no longer be an infringement. We would be discussing completely different conditions at that point.

Actually, If I do not, as you say, understand what "infringed" means, then we are arguing meaning.

What you are arguing is:

Parameters: "You can't eat a pineapple whole."

You: "Well, I can if I cut it up into smaller pieces!"

Semantics is understanding the parameters of a wholly in-tact pineapple to incorrectly mean the same as an entire pineapple in some other state of being.

There is more than one method of eating that same pineapple.


Absolutely not. It doesn't say "shouldn't be" or "in most cases probably shall not" or even "may not," it's "shall not." Shall is an obligation, a must, an involuntary directive not open to defiance or contravenes, in the case of the Second Amendment, an obligation directive to not do something for which no exceptions are made. It is an absolute, and therefore there should be no restrictions.

Death is an absolute. The boiling point is an absolute. Freezing is an absolute. The Periodic Table of Elements is an absolute. There are some others but the U.S. Constitution and it's provisions are not absolute.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Wrong, the boiling point of water is not absolute. It can vary, sometimes greatly, depending on altitude, purity etc. It is far from absolute.
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
That does not take into account the purity or lack there of, which also changes the boiling point. Too many frogs would change the boiling point as well.

You're making it too easy. :rolleyes:

Go on, have a shot at it!

boiling-frogs-socialism-subtle-propaganda.jpg
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Well that's an entirely different animal now isn't it? This would mean infringement is, as you say, conditional and subject to revision. If it were truly an absolute there would be no "unless".
You're the one who created the "unless" in order to create this entirely different animal. As written, the "shall not" of the Second Amendment is an absolute. The statement that, "Constitutional provisions aren't necessarily meant to exist unfettered or unrestricted," is patently false in the absence of this "unless" that you invented, as the Second Amendment contains no reference to "unless" whatsoever.

Yes they can but in this case it was not a whim.
? Huh? You said there are no absolutes, only opinions. There is no "in this case" since "shall not be infringed" is not an opinion, it's an absolute. Opinions can be changed on a whim, the Second Amendment cannot. And even if the Second Amendment were changed, it wouldn't matter.

An Amendment is itself a restriction.
A restriction upon government, yes.

Actually, If I do not, as you say, understand what "infringed" means, then we are arguing meaning.
Yes, I know, that's why I said it's not semantics when you rhetorically suggested we could argument semantics. In order to argue semantics, you have to at least know the meaning of the terms you are arguing, and you clearly don't know the meaning of "infringed" nor the meaning of using the procedures to change the language of the Second Amendment to change the meaning of the Amendment. So no, we really can't argue semantics.

There is more than one method of eating that same pineapple.
Not according to the stated parameters. The parameters specified eating the pineapple whole. There is only one way to eat something whole, and that's whole (undivided; in one piece: to swallow a thing whole). You want to ignore the parameters and create brand new parameters.

Death is an absolute. The boiling point is an absolute. Freezing is an absolute. The Periodic Table of Elements is an absolute. There are some others but the U.S. Constitution and it's provisions are not absolute.
You obviously don't understand the meaning of "absolute." Granted, death certainly seems to be, in every way that matters, an absolute, but we don't yet know what life is, much less what death is, to make such an absolute statement.

As was previously noted, absolute means free from restriction of limitation; not limited in any way. The boiling point and freezing point of a substance is limited to very restrictive circumstances and thus is not absolute. The boiling point of water, for example, is different in Ohio than it is in Cocoa Beach or Denver. Different conditions, primarily pressure, affect both the boiling and freezing point.

The atomic number of individual elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements is an absolute, but the Table itself is hardly an absolute, as there are exceptions and restrictions of the Table. The row of the Period 4 Elements is the classic and simplest illustration of that.

The U.S. Constitution and its provisions are a mixed bag, where some parts are absolute and some parts are not. For example, the part where it gives the percentage of the Congress and of the States that are needed to make a change to the Constitution is an absolute, as it does not allow for deviation from the stated parameters under any circumstances. Someone can't come along and decree, for example, that we only need 12 states, or 47 states, to ratify an amendment. There are only two ways in which the Constitution may be amended (one of which has never been used, incidentally). The Constitution does not allow for any other ways beyond these two. That's an absolute.

While the speech guaranteed by the First Amendment is not an absolute, the First Amendment itself is nevertheless is an absolute, as it absolutely prevents Congress from passing any law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Other laws can and have been created to restrict freedom of speech (and of religion, and of the press) in certain situations.... just not any laws by Congress. The Constitution doesn't guarantee free speech in any and all circumstances, it just guarantees that Congress won't make any law that abridges the freedom of speech.

The Second Amendment, on the other hand, is absolute, as it allows for no exceptions or restrictions of any kind (such as by Congress, as in the First Amendment). It says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, by anybody. The reason it makes no exceptions or hasn't any restrictions is because the right to keep and bear arms is considered to be an "absolute right." The Second Amendment was based in part on the long-standing English common-law which recognized the natural right of self-defense and self-preservation, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

Unlike the First Amendment's freedom of speech, where the courts have ruled that exceptions can be made under certain circumstances and in certain situations, the courts have made no such allowances for the infringements on the right to keep and bear arms. The first big affirmation came in the 19th century with the Cruikshank case where the court flatly stated, "The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence." Meaning, the right to keep and bear arms is a right regardless of whether the Constitution even exists or not. You can't get any more absolute than that, and changing the Second Amendment to the Constitution won't change the right in any way. There are no semantics to argue here.

Because gun control advocates (who don't even know what a militia is) desperately tried to muddy the meaning waters with "a well regulated militia" to prevent individuals from keeping and bearing arms, in 2008 the Supreme Court (who knows that a militia is) handed down in the Heller case the clarification that the Second Amendment expressly and implicitly protected an individual right to possess and carry firearms.

Then in the 2010 case of McDonald v Chicago, the Court ruled that the Second Amendment not only restricted the federal government from infringing on the right to keep and bear arms, but local and state governments were also equally restricted from such infringement. They made that ruling because the right to keep and bear arms is an "absolute right" that cannot be taken away by anyone.

So not only is the right to keep and bear arms an absolute right, the restriction on the state at any level to infringe that right is also an absolute. Absolutely.
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
You're the one who created the "unless" in order to create this entirely different animal. As written, the "shall not" of the Second Amendment is an absolute. The statement that, "Constitutional provisions aren't necessarily meant to exist unfettered or unrestricted," is patently false in the absence of this "unless" that you invented, as the Second Amendment contains no reference to "unless" whatsoever.

? Huh? You said there are no absolutes, only opinions. There is no "in this case" since "shall not be infringed" is not an opinion, it's an absolute. Opinions can be changed on a whim, the Second Amendment cannot. And even if the Second Amendment were changed, it wouldn't matter.

A restriction upon government, yes.

Yes, I know, that's why I said it's not semantics when you rhetorically suggested we could argument semantics. In order to argue semantics, you have to at least know the meaning of the terms you are arguing, and you clearly don't know the meaning of "infringed" nor the meaning of using the procedures to change the language of the Second Amendment to change the meaning of the Amendment. So no, we really can't argue semantics.

Not according to the stated parameters. The parameters specified eating the pineapple whole. There is only one way to eat something whole, and that's whole (undivided; in one piece: to swallow a thing whole). You want to ignore the parameters and create brand new parameters.

You obviously don't understand the meaning of "absolute." Granted, death certainly seems to be, in every way that matters, an absolute, but we don't yet know what life is, much less what death is, to make such an absolute statement.

As was previously noted, absolute means free from restriction of limitation; not limited in any way. The boiling point and freezing point of a substance is limited to very restrictive circumstances and thus is not absolute. The boiling point of water, for example, is different in Ohio than it is in Cocoa Beach or Denver. Different conditions, primarily pressure, affect both the boiling and freezing point.

The atomic number of individual elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements is an absolute, but the Table itself is hardly an absolute, as there are exceptions and restrictions of the Table. The row of the Period 4 Elements is the classic and simplest illustration of that.

The U.S. Constitution and its provisions are a mixed bag, where some parts are absolute and some parts are not. For example, the part where it gives the percentage of the Congress and of the States that are needed to make a change to the Constitution is an absolute, as it does not allow for deviation from the stated parameters under any circumstances. Someone can't come along and decree, for example, that we only need 12 states, or 47 states, to ratify an amendment. There are only two ways in which the Constitution may be amended (one of which has never been used, incidentally). The Constitution does not allow for any other ways beyond these two. That's an absolute.

While the speech guaranteed by the First Amendment is not an absolute, the First Amendment itself is nevertheless is an absolute, as it absolutely prevents Congress from passing any law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Other laws can and have been created to restrict freedom of speech (and of religion, and of the press) in certain situations.... just not any laws by Congress. The Constitution doesn't guarantee free speech in any and all circumstances, it just guarantees that Congress won't make any law that abridges the freedom of speech.

The Second Amendment, on the other hand, is absolute, as it allows for no exceptions or restrictions of any kind (such as by Congress, as in the First Amendment). It says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, by anybody. The reason it makes no exceptions or hasn't any restrictions is because the right to keep and bear arms is considered to be an "absolute right." The Second Amendment was based in part on the long-standing English common-law which recognized the natural right of self-defense and self-preservation, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

Unlike the First Amendment's freedom of speech, where the courts have ruled that exceptions can be made under certain circumstances and in certain situations, the courts have made no such allowances for the infringements on the right to keep and bear arms. The first big affirmation came in the 19th century with the Cruikshank case where the court flatly stated, "The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence." Meaning, the right to keep and bear arms is a right regardless of whether the Constitution even exists or not. You can't get any more absolute than that, and changing the Second Amendment to the Constitution won't change the right in any way. There are no semantics to argue here.

Because gun control advocates (who don't even know what a militia is) desperately tried to muddy the meaning waters with "a well regulated militia" to prevent individuals from keeping and bearing arms, in 2008 the Supreme Court (who knows that a militia is) handed down in the Heller case the clarification that the Second Amendment expressly and implicitly protected an individual right to possess and carry firearms.

Then in the 2010 case of McDonald v Chicago, the Court ruled that the Second Amendment not only restricted the federal government from infringing on the right to keep and bear arms, but local and state governments were also equally restricted from such infringement. They made that ruling because the right to keep and bear arms is an "absolute right" that cannot be taken away by anyone.

So not only is the right to keep and bear arms an absolute right, the restriction on the state at any level to infringe that right is also an absolute. Absolutely.

While I admire your synopsis of the Second Amendment Wiki page I'm not wavering on my stand. It wasn't really necessary to rewrite it though since I also read it yesterday. If we were to take a snapshot of the Constitution today and analyze it I suppose your contention would be accurate. My contention is that the document is in fact in flux and can, under very specific circumstances, be altered or changed. The entire Constitution is only absolute on a given day. Other than that I don't see much else to comment on, being that most of the rest of your post was stated by you yesterday in this thread.


The verbiage "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." was part of the original version of the U.S. Constitution. The Militia Act of 1903 more clearly defined what a Militia "shall" be. According to this act there are two kinds of militias: An organized militia such as the National Guard or a Naval Militia, and a Reserve Militia consisting of "Able Bodied" men between the ages of 17 and 45 years of age who are not currently members of the National Guard. Former members of the U.S. Military are considered part of an "Unorganized Militia". This being the case and going by what a Militia is in America based on the 1903 act, not in English Law which you mentioned earlier, I have to wonder which militias are entitled to bear arms,for how long, and if that right expires at age 45. And what about everyone else?
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"My contention is that the document is in fact in flux and can, under very specific circumstances, be altered or changed."

There are ONLY two LEGAL methods to change the Constitution and the "people control" side, like Biden, Obama and Co. are using neither. They don't have the courage to do it in a correct and legal manner because the know they would lose. So every thing is done illegally and by the "bully" method. What "flux'? The legal tools are open to your use.
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
"My contention is that the document is in fact in flux and can, under very specific circumstances, be altered or changed."

There are ONLY two LEGAL methods to change the Constitution and the "people control" side, like Biden, Obama and Co. are using neither. They don't have the courage to do it in a correct and legal manner because the know they would lose. So every thing is done illegally and by the "bully" method. What "flux'? The legal tools are open to your use.

Yes that has been mentioned in this thread a several times...
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
My contention is that the document is in fact in flux and can, under very specific circumstances, be altered or changed.
That statement is an oxymoron. If it's in flux, then it's constantly being altered or changed, since flux literally means constant change, passage or movement.

The entire Constitution is only absolute on a given day.
I think it's been clearly demonstrated that's not the case. Some parts of it is absolute, some parts aren't. Nevertheless, the phrase "shall not be infringed" is an absolute on every given day and does not meet your "unfettered or unrestricted" contention.

The verbiage "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." was part of the original version of the U.S. Constitution.
Yes it was, but then again there are lots of phrases that were part of the original version that was not ratified by the states. The states refused to ratify the above version with a capital "M" Militia and a capital "S" State because capital letters denoted specific proper name meaning.

The Militia Act of 1903 more clearly defined what a Militia "shall" be.
No it didn't. It established the US National Guard as the chief body of organized military reserves in the United States and codified when the National Guard can be called into federal service.

According to this act there are two kinds of militias: An organized militia such as the National Guard or a Naval Militia, and a Reserve Militia consisting of "Able Bodied" men between the ages of 17 and 45 years of age who are not currently members of the National Guard. Former members of the U.S. Military are considered part of an "Unorganized Militia".
The Act organized the two types of militia that could be called into federal service and who is eligible (age limits) to enlist or be appointed as an officer.

This being the case and going by what a Militia is in America based on the 1903 act, not in English Law which you mentioned earlier, I have to wonder which militias are entitled to bear arms,for how long, and if that right expires at age 45. And what about everyone else?
Of course the right to bear arms doesn't end at 45 (or 65 for former members of the regular military). Why would it? The right to keep and bear arms isn't dependent on being a member of the military or a militia. Never has been, and likely never will be.

It's only been in the past 50 years or so that gun control advocates have tried, in vain, to use the phrase, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state..." as being the requirement to keep and bear arms. But since it's clear from the Federalist Papers and the intent of English Common-Law that the right of self-defense and self-preservation and resistance to oppression is a natural right, there is no question that the framers of the Constitution had no intention whatsoever of making the right to keep and bear arms predicated on militia membership. The courts have ruled resoundingly and unambiguously on this issue, which shouldn't be surprising since it is so clearly self-evident that anyone has the natural right to defend themselves against attack or oppression. It's a right that doesn't expire with age, nor is it a right that manifests itself only once you reach 17 years old.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
The Militia Act of 1903 more clearly defined what a Militia "shall" be. According to this act there are two kinds of militias: An organized militia such as the National Guard or a Naval Militia, and a Reserve Militia consisting of "Able Bodied" men between the ages of 17 and 45 years of age who are not currently members of the National Guard. Former members of the U.S. Military are considered part of an "Unorganized Militia". This being the case and going by what a Militia is in America based on the 1903 act, not in English Law which you mentioned earlier, I have to wonder which militias are entitled to bear arms,for how long, and if that right expires at age 45. And what about everyone else?
Nope, irrelevant. The second amendment says the right to bear arms belongs to the People, not just those members who are in the militia. The right of the People...
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yes........

Then you are opposed to all current and proposed gun control laws, UNLESS, they are put in by either an amendment or a Constitutional Convention. By opposed I mean as a point of law, NOT, your personal feelings on whether or not you agree with them.
 
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