The Bundy Ranch Fiasco - Herr Obama Sends Jack-Booted Thugs to NV

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
In case you haven't heard about this, the first thing that comes to mind is the raid on the Branch Davidians during the Clinton administration. In a nutshell, a govt military force has been sent onto a man's ranch to confiscate his cattle due to a dispute over a relatively moderate amount of grazing fees and the importance of the survival of a desert tortoise. The Bundy family has been ranching this land since 1870, yet are being treated like enemies of the state. Too bad the Obama administration can't muster this kind of effort against the drug cartels along the Mexican border.
Last Man Standing
Rancher: armed feds are surrounding my farm



BY: Elizabeth Harrington

A two-decades-old battle between a Nevada rancher and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) has resulted in officials armed with machine guns surrounding the ranch and forcibly removing the owner’s cattle, according to the rancher’s family.

Cliven Bundy, the last rancher in Clark County, Nev., has been fighting a “one-man range war” since 1993, when he decided to take a stand against the agency, refusing to pay fees for the right to graze on a ranch run by his family for centuries.
After years of court battles, the BLM secured a federal court order to have Bundy’s “trespass cattle” forcibly removed with heavy artillery, the family said...

Last Man Standing | Washington Free Beacon


See also: Nevada rancher in tense standoff with federal government over cattle on rural public lands* - NY Daily News
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It's a 20 year old legal battle, and you're blaming it on Herr Obama. That's rich.
I also question your assertion that Obama himself sent in the jack-booted thugs to Nevada.

This is a federal government problem, not an Obama problem.

The first court order instructing Bundy to stop allowing his cattle to graze on federal lands happened in 1998 under Clinton, but by a federal judge appointed by Ronald Reagan. Last July the same court reaffirmed the order, and was signed by a different judge, also appointed by Reagan (Judge Lloyd D. George, a graduate of Las Vegas High School and a long-time resident of Vegas, but, he's a Mormon, so there is that). But Reagan, Clinton nor Obama have anything to do with this. This is strictly a federal government's "We can do whatever we want because we're the federal government," issue, and it's an issue that's been going on for decades. it's gotten worse in recent years because of radical environmentalists.

Ever since the Bureau of Land Management was created, they've been more problems than not out west, where in 13 states the federal government now owns between 30% and 83% of a state's area. The Bureau of Land Management in particular has a long and rich history of ignoring the US Constitution whenever it feels like it. In addition to grazing rights, the agency has taken away water rights, ditch rights-of-way, roads, water facilities and other structures of range management without just compensation. Look up the water rights fight in Klamath Falls, look up U.S. v. Hage, the Sagebrush Rebels.

The Bureau of Land Management does a lot of good, but like most federal agencies, they are at their core corrupt and evil. And they didn't suddenly get that way when Obama became president.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
All of the above is true, BUT, Obama COULD put an end to it IF he wanted too, so, it is still his fault. Starting in 2017, if we have a new president elected THAT person will be at fault unless he/she/it stops it.
 

RoadTime

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Once again my eyes deceived me, as I thought this was going to be about the Bunny Ranch :rolleyes:
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Once again my eyes deceived me, as I thought this was going to be about the Bunny Ranch :rolleyes:

No thats the chicken ranch your thinking about....
I said lord take me downtown, i'm just looking for some tush!

039_31619~ZZ-Top-Posters.jpg
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
It's a 20 year old legal battle, and you're blaming it on Herr Obama. That's rich.
I also question your assertion that Obama himself sent in the jack-booted thugs to Nevada.

This is a federal government problem, not an Obama problem.

The first court order instructing Bundy to stop allowing his cattle to graze on federal lands happened in 1998 under Clinton, but by a federal judge appointed by Ronald Reagan. Last July the same court reaffirmed the order, and was signed by a different judge, also appointed by Reagan (Judge Lloyd D. George, a graduate of Las Vegas High School and a long-time resident of Vegas, but, he's a Mormon, so there is that). But Reagan, Clinton nor Obama have anything to do with this. This is strictly a federal government's "We can do whatever we want because we're the federal government," issue, and it's an issue that's been going on for decades. it's gotten worse in recent years because of radical environmentalists.
Radical environmentalists, the EPA and quite a few other liberal institutions have gained considerable power in "recent years" under the Obama administration.
Ever since the Bureau of Land Management was created, they've been more problems than not out west, where in 13 states the federal government now owns between 30% and 83% of a state's area. The Bureau of Land Management in particular has a long and rich history of ignoring the US Constitution whenever it feels like it. In addition to grazing rights, the agency has taken away water rights, ditch rights-of-way, roads, water facilities and other structures of range management without just compensation. Look up the water rights fight in Klamath Falls, look up U.S. v. Hage, the Sagebrush Rebels.

The Bureau of Land Management does a lot of good, but like most federal agencies, they are at their core corrupt and evil. And they didn't suddenly get that way when Obama became president.
It's so convenient when some govt agency - the NSA, BLM or IRS to list only a few - does something that outrageously tramples our constitutional rights, and Barack Hussein Obama is said to be totally clueless and has nothing to do with it. But in this case like the others, he does nothing about it or takes corrective action to stop it. To use a phrase that was often employed when Bush was president IT'S HAPPENING ON HIS WATCH, and let's not kid ourselves about his ignorance of this fiasco; at the very least he knew about it after the first day. The ancient history surrounding this mess does not include the invasion of armed federal troops under any other POTUS. Obama could pick up his pen and/or phone and issue an executive order to the BLM to stop this nonsense immediately and send someone in to negotiate a reasonable settlement with these ranchers.
 

billg27

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
On the news last night they said that its actually State owned property, not federal. Also stated that the Governor could step in and stop this from happening. So far, the Governor has been quiet and hasn't gotten involved. And the turtles are not on the endangered species list.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
And the turtles are not on the endangered species list.
Not on the Endangered List, specifically, but they are on the Vulnerable List, just one notch below the Endangered List.

The levels of Conservation Status, and the other of seriousness, are as follows:

Extinct
Extinct
Extinct in the Wild

Threatened
Critically Endangered
Endangered
Vulnerable

At Lower Risk
Conservation Dependent
Near Threatened
Least Concer

Other
Data Deficient
Not Evaluated

There is a specific set of criteria that goes with each List. The Desert Tortoise is just a hare away from being bumped up to the Endangered List, mainly because of shrinking habitat. But, contrary to the sentiments of the environmentalist wackos, cattle do not impede on the Desert Tortoise at all. They don't disturb the turtles, nor injure them or disturb their nests.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Radical environmentalists, the EPA and quite a few other liberal institutions have gained considerable power in "recent years" under the Obama administration.
Yeah, just like they have also gained considerable power in "recent years" under every other presidency since they were founded.

It's so convenient when some govt agency - the NSA, BLM or IRS to list only a few - does something that outrageously tramples our constitutional rights, and Barack Hussein Obama is said to be totally clueless and has nothing to do with it.
It's almost as convenient as blaming Barack Hussein Obama for every little thing and every decision made by every government agency and bureaucrat in the federal government because they think he's intimately involved in every one of the 37 million decisions made by the government every day. I do understand the deep seeded need to blame him for anything and everything you don't like, though. Still, I haven't read a single story where Obama, or the ever-popular "Obama administration" is being blamed for this - except the one penned by you.

But in this case like the others, he does nothing about it or takes corrective action to stop it.
For one, it's not his job to make the decisions of every single agency in the government. He's the executive. There are bureaucrats already in place running federal agencies that have long been doing their own thing without having to clear everything with whoever the president is. Second of all, what makes you think he didn't pick up the phone when this hit the news and call it off?

To use a phrase that was often employed when Bush was president IT'S HAPPENING ON HIS WATCH, and let's not kid ourselves about his ignorance of this fiasco; at the very least he knew about it after the first day.
It's been happening for twenty years, and there is no way that he knew a thing about it after that first day, which was, of course, 20 years ago. So, on which day do you think he knew about Mr Bundy? Last Thursday? Tuesday? When the second court order was issued last summer? What first day are you talking about?

The ancient history surrounding this mess does not include the invasion of armed federal troops under any other POTUS.
This particular mess? No, but the history of the BLM, yes, absolutely. I had an uncle who was a ranger with the NPS, and he participated in dozens of armed raids including those of the BLM, Bureau of Indian Affairs, Fish and Wildlife, Reclamation, as well as the NPS. None of them were actual invasions, however, as they were all directed by a court order when the land owner failed to comply with the court.

Obama could pick up his pen and/or phone and issue an executive order to the BLM to stop this nonsense immediately and send someone in to negotiate a reasonable settlement with these ranchers.
Twenty years, two court orders. What's Obama supposed to do, toss out the court orders (which would be illegal) and set aside the judicial process?

Look, I'm not a real big fan of all of the federal lands out west. It's appalling. I personally think Bundy has an excellent case for simply being left alone, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is he's proven himself to be a better steward of the land than the BLM.
 
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Hightech_Hobo

Expert Expediter
Legally, I think Mr. Bundy is wrong....sounds like this thing has been through the court system and he has lost....

This situation represents much more than Mr. Bundy's legal status. I have been very bothered by Good ol local police becoming para-military troops...Swat teams financed by drug confiscation dollars in townships of less than 5000 pop...(random statement but you get the direction....)..

these swat teams then get used to raid a house for a guy who has an ounce of weed or some similer minor infraction...

Lets throw in the multitude of regulations created on both state and federal levels and we are all feeling a bit "under the Thumb" of people who cant seem to keep their own house in order...

The malitia getting involved says alot to me about just how fed up we're getting with things...

I feel today like corporations are way too big and powerful...("too big to fail...") , our politicians are only interested in getting re-elected, Our media is no longer a "watch dog" for citizens, Now it just relays "the talking points" or in Fox's case is so anti-democrat that one discounts anything said on that channel any more...

the afore mentioned is just the tip of the iceberg for reasons to be frustrated..The malitia's coming out on this battle was a big risk....Bundy and those groups are now in the cross-hairs of the powers that be...they must have know that this would be the case when they made the decision to make a stand with Mr. Bundy..

This was probably the wrong issue to take a stand on as Mr. Bundy legal status seems to be pretty cut and dry...but it does indicate the level of unrest out there. It seems we came very close to the "First shot being fired"...but the powers that be "intelligently, in my opinion" backed off...

... but only for the moment...unless things start to change this will just be the first of many skirmishes to come....
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Legally, I think Mr. Bundy is wrong....sounds like this thing has been through the court system and he has lost....
Yes, but do keep in mind that the BLM has a rich history of railroading people through the courts. For one, the BLM is essentially a group of bullies, and two, the BLM, like most federal agencies, are governed by federal laws and regulations, not common sense, so when the cogs in the machine start turning they just keep on mindlessly chugging along doing their thing, never stopping to think about what they are actually doing. Combine that mental idiocy with being a bully, and you have the BLM at its finest.

However, that's not really the case here.

He's lost twice in court, but he also represented himself both times, which was probably his biggest mistake. His second mistake was trying to argue right and wrong and common sense with a federal agency. His third mistake, and it's a whopper, was saying, “I believe this is a sovereign state of Nevada. I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But, I don’t recognize the United States Government as even existing. It gets back to the ownership of this. Who owns this land? Does the sovereign State of Nevada own this land within their borders? Or does the United States own this land with their borders? If United States owns this land then I guess I’m wrong. But what if this is a sovereign State of Nevada and Clark County, Nevada owns this land? The People of Clark County, Nevada owns this land.” If you look at how the lands out west were accumulated by the federal government, there is no question the land is owned by the federal government. So he's wrong on that one.

The BLM actually turned loose the cattle they had rounded up, which is kind of a surprise, but they aren't done yet by any means. They'll go back to court. But in the meantime, we now have governors and congressional representatives and senators involved, which should get a common sense resolution out of this, likely with some special consideration legislation out of Congress, or perhaps even a petition to the court to vacate the previous decisions, or at least parts of them.

The problem really goes back to how it all started, back in 1993 with the listing of a native tortoise incorporated under the Endangered Species Act. As a result, the U.S. Department of Interior’s Bureau of Land Management (BLM) informed grazing permit holders like Bundy that cattle counts would need to be reduced to 150 head (in Bundy's case, from 200). That same year, the Bundy permit was eligible for renewal but was not renewed by Bundy, probably out of protest or something in having to reduce his cattle. The permit was later revoked in 1994 by the BLM for nonpayment on the renewal, according to federal court records.

Instead of reducing his cattle, he increased it, and stopped paying the grazing fees. After asking him repeatedly to remove the cattle, 4 years later in 1998 the BLM went to court to have him remove the cattle. The judge so ordered them to be removed, and gave him 6 months to do it, otherwise be fined $200 per day per head. He appealed to the 9th Circuit and lost in 1999.

Between 2000 and 2011 the BLM performed surveillance and tracked Bundy's cattle, and noted a sizable increase in Bundy's herd count not only on the land Bundy used to lease, but also on adjacent land that had never been permitted to anyone, including land in the Lake Meade National Recreation Area.

In June 2011, BLM sent a fresh cease and desist order with another threat to impound stray cattle in July 2011. Later in November, the NPS sent a separate letter regarding alleged trespass on the two new tracts of land within the Lake Meade area with a 45 day impound threat. In January 2012, the Bundy family told NPS they would work to round up stray cattle ahead of the deadline. The Bundy family rounded up zero cattle.

Then, according to court records, the BLM surveyed 790 head of cattle in an area designated as the "New Trespass Lands" (a separate nature preserve in the Overton Arm and Gold Butte areas of the Lake Mead National Recreation Area) in March 2012, areas in which Bundy's cattle, nor anyone else, had ever been. All the cattle either bore Bundy's brand, or were admitted by Bundy to be his.

In April 2012, court records indicate that one last administrative effort was made on the part of the BLM to resolve the issue. Federal agents attempted to broker a deal involving the Clark County Sherriff that would allow cattle to be rounded up and transported to a sales market of the Bundy family’s choosing and allow the family to keep all proceeds. Court filings referenced Cliven Bundy’s assertion that any such action to round up cattle could lead to a “range war.”

The U.S. Government then filed a new civil lawsuit against the family for specific alleged trespass on the New Trespass Lands and the Lake Mead recreational area in May 2012. Court records reference Bundy’s confirmation in deposition that the cattle, branded or not, were indeed his on the tracts. Further, court records detailed the family’s ranching improvements to the off-limits New Trespass Lands to include corrals, water troughs, hay and grazing supplements, all of which were explicitly prohibited for any party under any grazing lease. When asked in deposition what reaction the Bundy family would have should an impoundment occur, Cliven said he’d do “whatever it takes” to include physical force to stop such action.

The Bundy family continually defended its actions using similar defense theories from prior litigation despite the federal court’s rejection of them. The family argued that the United States did not in fact maintain jurisdiction or ownership of the federal lands in question, citing a specific Nevada code NRS 321.596 Legislative Findings. Bundy also challenged the inclusion of the tortoise as an endangered species. He lost on all counts.

In July 2013, the federal court granted the DOJ’s motion for summary judgment in favor of the U.S. Government. The court reiterated its position that “the public lands of Nevada are the property of the United States because the United States has held title to those public lands since 1848, when Mexico ceded the land to the United States.”

The Nevada federal district court flatly stated: “In sum, this most recent effort to oppose the United States’ legal process, Bundy has produced no valid law or specific facts raising a genuine issue of fact regarding federal ownership or management of the public lands of Nevada, or that his cattle have not trespassed on the New Trespass Lands.”

In February 2014, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals again rejected Bundy’s claims.

And this is where we are now, where some people think Obama needs to pick up a pen or a phone and order a resolution to this nonsense.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"And this is where we are now, where some people think Obama needs to pick up a pen or a phone and order a resolution to this nonsense"


Why not? He is shooting out executive orders all over the place. Now, most are being written to take away power from the people and circumvent the Congress, but hey, it COULD happen.
 
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