Target rich environment

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I do apologize for the typo. It's supposed to be ten thousand, not one hundred thousand. You're right, 100,000 would be a really lot.

I don't have a link and don't feel like looking it up, but the killings involved eggs as well as live birds, and also involved a complex set of netting along the Columbia River.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
There are more than enough laws to keep guns out of the hands of the people who shouldn't have them in the far far more than enough (over 25,000) gun laws already on the books. That's the problem and that's why people get perturbed when "gun safety laws" are brought up. It isn't about gun safety at all. It's only about restrictions and infringement.

If it were about safety that side of the aisle would be talking about the laws already in force. The laws that take no debate. The laws that don't take months or years to implement. The laws that are perfectly good and are in place ready to go immediately.

Why do you suppose that never happens? Why is it we need more laws? Could it be because the liars calling for them are only out to restrict and infringe any way they can? Could it be that all it takes is a brain and common sense to clearly see that and not have to question why people are upset by it?

Now if you (as in anyone) have a brief, concise response answering the questions and pointing to a valid concern not already addressed it would be interesting to hear but it isn't very likely there's anything left unaddressed in the myriad of gun laws.

As long as anyone [including those convicted of domestic violence, and those currently under a restraining order] can buy from private, unlicensed dealers, [online or at gun shows], there are most def NOT enough laws already on the books.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh. I get it now. As long as an illegal person can buy from a possibly illegal seller there aren't enough laws inconveniencing and infringing on honest buyers and honest sellers who are the only ones who will obey the laws anyway.

So rather than prosecute and punish the law breakers we'll punish the honest citizens. It makes total sense now that I've bashed my head against the wall and brain damaged myself so that I can think like a liberal.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh. I get it now. As long as an illegal person can buy from a possibly illegal seller there aren't enough laws inconveniencing and infringing on honest buyers and honest sellers who are the only ones who will obey the laws anyway.

So rather than prosecute and punish the law breakers we'll punish the honest citizens. It makes total sense now that I've bashed my head against the wall and brain damaged myself so that I can think like a liberal.
Now that you're thinking like a liberal, you won't be able to comprehend that criminals don't care about the laws on the books, or any that might be added in the future. This mindset happens to be in sync with our liberal POTUS and Atty. General who only enforce the laws that further their political agenda.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh. I get it now. As long as an illegal person can buy from a possibly illegal seller there aren't enough laws inconveniencing and infringing on honest buyers and honest sellers who are the only ones who will obey the laws anyway.

So rather than prosecute and punish the law breakers we'll punish the honest citizens. It makes total sense now that I've bashed my head against the wall and brain damaged myself so that I can think like a liberal.

You need to keep bashing your head, because you don't get it: it's not an either/or proposition. Requiring all sellers to be licensed, and all buyers to undergo background checks does not in any way suggest that lawbreakers no longer be prosecuted.
If the process of licensing and background checks is considered punishment for honest citizens, then we all have a lot to complain about. I've been licensed and background checked dozens of times for various reasons, [none related to firearms] without viewing it as more than an annoying necessity of life today.
It doesn't even require any new laws: just close the loopholes in the existing laws, so that people who shouldn't be able to buy weapons can't easily evade the clear intent of those laws.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
I do apologize for the typo. It's supposed to be ten thousand, not one hundred thousand. You're right, 100,000 would be a really lot.

Even 10,000 eagles killed in one year, in one state seems like a lot.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Even 10,000 eagles killed in one year, in one state seems like a lot.

It is a lot. That figure includes eggs in the nest destroyed, IIRC. But basically the fishermen just picked them off one by one as they came to the Columbia River to eat, especially when the trout and salmon spawn between July and November. Eagles in most regions have fish as between 55 and 65 percent of their diet, but the eagles in the Columbia River Estuary have fish for about 90 percent of their diet. About a quarter of the fish that Columbia River eagles eat are scavenged from dead fish, which is a lot higher percentage than most eagles. But it also allowed the fishermen to used poisoned bait to kill a lot of those eagles.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
If the process of licensing and background checks is considered punishment for honest citizens, then we all have a lot to complain about. I've been licensed and background checked dozens of times for various reasons, [none related to firearms] without viewing it as more than an annoying necessity of life today.
How many of those things for which you were licensed and background checked involved things you have a natural right to do? Can you imagine having to undergo a background check to buy fuel, or shoes, or food or a fork?

It doesn't even require any new laws: just close the loopholes in the existing laws, so that people who shouldn't be able to buy weapons can't easily evade the clear intent of those laws.
So if I want to sell my gun to my brother, I should have to have a license to sell firearms? Ridiculous. But according to the DOJ, the number of bad people who use guns in a bad way would suggest that every gun owner must have a license to sell the gun if they sell it. Where where dis the bad people who did the shootings get most of their guns? Were those “loopholes” responsible? Nope.

According to surveys DOJ conducted of state prison inmates during 2004 (the most recent year of data available), only two percent who owned a gun at the time of their offense bought it at either a gun show or flea market. About 10 percent said they purchased their gun from a retail shop or pawnshop, 37 percent obtained it from family or friends, and another 40 percent obtained it from an illegal source.

So 10 percent were purchased from licensed dealers without the loopholes coming into play. 37 percent were from family and friends, which would require new laws, like making family and friends licensed dealers, and 40 percent were obtained outside the loopholes completely closing the loopholes wouldn't have made one wit of difference. Only 2 percent would be affected by closing the loopholes. That's it. In the meantime, law abiding citizens have to be infringed upon by proving their worth as a human being to own something that they have a natural right to own.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
It is a lot. That figure includes eggs in the nest destroyed, IIRC. But basically the fishermen just picked them off one by one as they came to the Columbia River to eat, especially when the trout and salmon spawn between July and November. Eagles in most regions have fish as between 55 and 65 percent of their diet, but the eagles in the Columbia River Estuary have fish for about 90 percent of their diet. About a quarter of the fish that Columbia River eagles eat are scavenged from dead fish, which is a lot higher percentage than most eagles. But it also allowed the fishermen to used poisoned bait to kill a lot of those eagles.
Just curious - how long ago did this happen? Seems like if it was recent the tree-huggers and conservationists would have been going nuts.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Link to modern stories about fishermen killing eagles in WA state. I cannot find any. I did find links to what happened in Alaska, back in the early 20th century. DDT was the biggest killer of eagles, now wind generators will be the next.

History of the Bald Eagle - American Bald Eagle Information

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Q. What were eagles killed for?

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A. Eagles used to be killed for many reasons; for fun, for the heck of it, for mounted trophies, and because people mistakingly thought eagles were taking too many fish and competing with human fishermen.

[/FONT]http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/eagle/facts_conservation.html[/FONT]​

 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Just curious - how long ago did this happen? Seems like if it was recent the tree-huggers and conservationists would have been going nuts.
No, this wasn't recent at all. I wanna say late 40s or early 50s, but it might have been earlier than that. It's been quite some time since I came across the information, and it was while I was reading some stuff about sockeye salmon, not eagles.

What made me think of the information was a very recent story that I found to be utterly ironic. In the Columbia River basin they dredge a lot to keep shipping lanes open. The dredging has created sandbars, which is the ideal breeding ground for double-crested cormorants, a sea bird that's common around the Great Lakes and other inland waterways and coastal areas, as well.

In the Great Lakes, the double-crested cormorant populations have exploded largely because of the colonization of a non-native fish in the Lakes, a herring known as the alewife, which is a prey fish without any predators in the Great Lakes. They eat a lot of sports fish. It's a shad, commonly used as bait by fishermen. About 8 inches long, silver and very shiny. You know the fish.

For a plethora of reasons (including resurgent stripped bass populations) their numbers are in steep decline in New England (primary bait for lobster pots) and down towards the Carolinas, and those states now prohibit the taking and possession of these shad. Ironic because the populations in the Great Lakes are just the opposite. In the Great Lakes they introduced Pacific salmon to help control the alewife population, something that fishermen like, except that alewife is still killing off sportfish by preying on them, and because the alewife is a voracious eater of zooplankton (mostly water fleas) that other fish feed on, so they're winning the competition.

But these alewife shad are easy pickens for the double-crested cormorants and has allowed these birds to become quite numerous in the Great Lakes (mostly in Lake Michigan and Lake Huron, but all over, really). The US Fish and Wildlife Service has instituted several measures to stem the growing populations, including reducing the number of nests. Canada is in on it, too, by severely reducing the number of nests on Middle Island and Point Pelee National Park in Lake Erie. There is no hunting season on these birds yet, so the general public is not yet involved.

Now back to the Columbia River basin and the double-crested cormorant problem, where Army Corps of Engineers, who manages hydroelectric dams and dredges the Columbia River, is required by the Endangered Species Act to come up with a management plan to control the seabird population that is out of control. On East Sand Island alone there is normally 100 nesting pairs, and because of the dredging they now number about 15,000 nesting pairs. And that's just in one spot, doesn't include all the other nesting sites these birds have, but other sites have seen the same population explosions.

The Corps proposed 4 plans, three of which don't involve killing the birds, and one, the preferred option, involves shooting the birds and the taking of eggs. The US Fish and Wildlife Service strongly endorses the killing plan, and isn't that ironic. Also ironic is, during open house public comment by the Army Corps of Engineers and the US Fish and Wildlife Service, Tommy Huntington, a fisherman in the Columbia River estuary said, "I can't believe in this day and age we can't come up with an alternative solution to killing things. You have to kill one to save the other one? It doesn't make any sense." And he's not alone in his sentiment among sport and commercial fishermen in the area. Told ya it was ironic.

So, the killing plan? Wanna know what it is? If you think 10,000 eagles in a year is a lot, and it is, that's small potatoes compared to what they want to do in the last 3-4 months of this year. The comment period ends August 19, and if all goes according to plan, they'll begin culling the birds the first week of September.

They want to eliminate 16,000 double-crested cormorants by the end of the year.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"In the Great Lakes, the double-crested cormorant populations have exploded largely because of the colonization of a non-native fish in the Lakes, a herring known as the alewife, which is a prey fish without any predators in the Great Lakes. They eat a lot of sports fish. It's a shad, commonly used as bait by fishermen. About 8 inches long, silver and very shiny. You know the fish. "

The alewife populations have crashed in the Great Lakes. The crash was caused by two primary reasons, the salmon stocking, which was done to get rid of the alewife and the zebra mussel. Alewifes eat primarily several types of zooplankton which is why they were having such an ill affect on game fish. They were wiping out the food source for native bait fish and small game fish. Alewife do not eat game fish.

Since the collapse of the alewife has also wiped out the salmon fishing in Lake Huron. This is, however, in my opinion, a good things since native species, such as the walleye are returning to normal levels.

The comorant is native to the Great Lakes and it too had it's numbers greatly reduced by DDT. They have made a good come back but are not yet back to their pre-DDT numbers on the Great Lakes.

Middle Sister island, just so you know, was privately owned and was for sale in 2011. I don't know it's status now.

file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/Middle%20Sister%20Island%20(1).pdf
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yeah, I wasn't very clear at all on what they eat. They don't actually eat other fish, but rather the fish eggs. It should have read "They eat a lot of sports fish eggs."
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I thought they primarily ate zooplankton, but it really does not matter since they are all but gone now.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
How many of those things for which you were licensed and background checked involved things you have a natural right to do? Can you imagine having to undergo a background check to buy fuel, or shoes, or food or a fork?

So if I want to sell my gun to my brother, I should have to have a license to sell firearms? Ridiculous. But according to the DOJ, the number of bad people who use guns in a bad way would suggest that every gun owner must have a license to sell the gun if they sell it. Where where dis the bad people who did the shootings get most of their guns? Were those “loopholes” responsible? Nope.

According to surveys DOJ conducted of state prison inmates during 2004 (the most recent year of data available), only two percent who owned a gun at the time of their offense bought it at either a gun show or flea market. About 10 percent said they purchased their gun from a retail shop or pawnshop, 37 percent obtained it from family or friends, and another 40 percent obtained it from an illegal source.

So 10 percent were purchased from licensed dealers without the loopholes coming into play. 37 percent were from family and friends, which would require new laws, like making family and friends licensed dealers, and 40 percent were obtained outside the loopholes completely closing the loopholes wouldn't have made one wit of difference. Only 2 percent would be affected by closing the loopholes. That's it. In the meantime, law abiding citizens have to be infringed upon by proving their worth as a human being to own something that they have a natural right to own.

Two thing strike me as ridiculous here: that I have a "natural" right to buy a weapon, but don't have a "natural" right to buy food, and that the numbers you refer to were provided by currently incarcerated felons, lol.
Are you seriously arguing that the right to bear arms should belong to everyone, no exceptions?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Well, I never said you don't have a natural right to buy food. You certainly do. People have a natural right to be free, and remain free, and to live, and to remain alive, and buying food (or growing it) is certainly a part of that. You have the natural right to obtain and consume food. You also have a natural right to defend yourself and society, be it with your fists, a rock, club, or some other weapon for that purpose. In fact, the Constitution guarantees it in writing, lest someone forgets.

And you're right, the numbers were indeed provided by currently incarcerated felons. I think it makes more sense to talk to people who were found guilty of gun-related crimes about where they obtained their guns, than it would be to talk to people who have not been found guilty of gun related crimes about where they obtained their guns. Nobody cares about law abiding citizens who haven't committed a crime with their guns. Or do they? Interesting.

"Are you seriously arguing that the right to bear arms should belong to everyone, no exceptions?"

If push came to shove, depending on the context of the question, I'd have to go with a big fat YES, because the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. However, that doesn't mean that an individual's rights (or certain rights, anyway) cannot be taken away - it happens all the time under certain conditions. For example, we have a right to personal liberty, but that right can be taken away, not infringed upon, but taken away, if you commit a crime which results in you being incarcerated. The difference between a right and a privilege is a privilege can be arbitrarily taken away, for any reason or no reason, but a right cannot be taken away without good reason. You have certain human rights who cannot be taken away, whether you've committed a crime or not. Like the right not to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, applies to everyone, criminals and non-convicted people alike.

Reasonable people would agree that the Second Amendment isn't an absolute in its application, because it applies only to "law-abiding, responsible" people. Convicted felons, for example, fall outside the scope of the Second Amendment's protection. They've proven themselves to be neither law abiding nor responsible. The same with the mentally ill and the severely retarded, as they cannot be responsible enough for society to trust their judgment with a gun.

The First Amendment's right of free speech is also one that applies to those who are "law-abiding and responsible." The right of free speech does not give you the right to break the law with that speech or to be irresponsible with it to the point where it causes injury or harm to others. If you do that, your right to free speech will be taken away.

So yeah, there are exceptions. But they're tangible and well defined. People who aren't allowed to keep and bear arms have had that right removed for just cause. The problem is, there are some people who want to expand that to full-on infringement where the right is removed, preemptively, without just cause.

If you haven't had your right removed for just cause, then buying or selling a gun should be no different than buying or selling a ripe Georgia peach.

However, the minute they start removing that right from "law-abiding, responsible" people without just cause, then the only remedy would be to stop removing the right even for just cause, because the state will have demonstrated themselves to be neither law-abiding or responsible, and everyone, felon and crazy alike, is gonna need those guns to protect themselves from the state. It works both ways.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Ok, but how does anyone know whether the person wishing to buy a weapon is law abiding and responsible, without a background check? In the examples I cited, those convicted of domestic abuse and those under a current restraining order are not
'law abiding', and those who report having a weapon stolen from an unlocked vehicle are not responsible [at least, not to the standard I'd expect of someone who keeps a weapon in their vehicle], yet they can buy a gun with no problem. I think that needs to be changed.
Maybe those convicted felons do have more pertinent info, but the question [as on any 'survey'] is whether they're being honest in answering. Survey a troop of Boy Scouts, you can assume they're being truthful, but convicted felons? Not so much. :rolleyes:
 
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