That's nothing to be proud of.1,021,234 miles....never have changed brake fluid ....
Sprinter power steering
- Thread starter brokcanadian
- Start date
2 Dodge certified techs have said no need.....as long as the fluid has not been exposed ...
BUT page 11 of the Sprinter 2005 maintenance logbook....Brake fluid....every 2 years....so much for that advice....LOL
but then again it also states
Transmission service fluid and change at 80,000 ONLY ONCE.....ahhhhh yeah right.....
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Had an E350 with 4 wheel ABS disc brakes, was 107F that day and EMPTY all 4 locked up and I slid into a jeep . . . was only doing 40.... Bad fluid
As long as the fluid has not been exposed? They should be able to get their money back for whatever they paid to get certified. Brake fluid gets "exposed" the instant it gets installed into the vehicle. All Glycol based fluids, including brake fluid, is hygroscopic, which means it attract moisture (DOT 5 brake fluid is silicone based and is not hygroscopic, but unless the manufacturer says to use silicone brake fluid you can't use it - it's mostly used in military vehicles, classic cars that mostly just sit there, and in most Rolls Royce cars). Moisture is attracted through the microscopic pores in the rubber seals, brake hoses, joints and seams. It happens quicker in humid environments, but generally brake fluid absorbs 1% of its volume in moisture every year. If you spend a lot of time in Houston, Louisiana, Florida, anywhere along in there, it'll be closer to 2% per year. Any moisture absorbed by the brake fluid will remain there forever and will not evaporate or be shed by the fluid. Eventually the brake fluid will saturate at between 8-10% moisture and will react to heat (and thus boil) the same as regular water.
Liquids are not compressible which is why they are used in hydraulic applications, and since water was first used in hydraulics that's why it is called hydraulics. When you compress a liquid, it won't compress, it'll move, so it'll move whatever is in its way - like brake pads, or a steering link. Brake fluid is subjected to some seriously high temperature, especially at the wheels. And while liquids are not compressible, the steam given off from boiling liquids is highly compressible. Thus, brake fluid must have a high boiling point. Otherwise, you apply the brakes, the fluid heats up, boils, and the steam can't be compressed enough to operate the brakes.
Brake fluid is rated at Dry and Wet boiling points. The Dry boiling point is brand new fluid right out of the bottle. The Wet boiling point is when the fluid has absorbed 3.7% water by volume.
Sprinters require DOT 4 Plus fluid (A.K.A. Super DOT 4), which has a minimum Dry Boiling Point of 500° F (260° C) and minimum Wet Boiling Point of 356° F (180° C). The bright blue line in the graph below shows the range for DOT 4 Plus brake fluid.
You can see that at 1% per year after 5 years the Wet Boiling Point is down in the 150° C - 175° C (302° F - 347° F) range and is where a fluid change is recommended. Expediters spend most of their time in areas of the country where the average daily humidity is between 45% and 55%. That's where the 1% per year comes in. If you are in an area all the time where the humidity is above 65% then your fluid will absorb 1.5% to 2% per year, and in areas above 80% humidity it'll be at least 2% per year. That's why I let mine go as long as 5 years.
so you are only into your 2nd change being the model yr of 2005...?
exposed to excessive dirt...some guys open the lid to see the level instead of just seeing the level thru the plastic...the removal of said lid causes dirt and crude to get into the system hastening the degradation..I have never removed the lid....It was topped up when a caliper was change with a flex line....they may have flushed it then But I have no recollection of it....and when they bleed the rear brakes for whatever reason again I can't recall clearly, but according to ole Wayne my fluid appeared just fine....
Yes. I'm due for another brake fluid change pretty soon, as it's been 5 years, or thereabouts. It's a 2-man job generally, and requires the special Sprinter/MB/Chrysler tool (or a DAD).
You certainly don't want to get any dirt, oil or other contaminants in the brake fluid. A small drop in brake fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir can be "topped up" but if the level consistently drops, the cause should be investigated and repaired. Brake fluid level in the master cylinder will drop as the linings (pads or shoes) wear and the calipers or wheel cylinders extend further to compensate. If you leave the cap off for expended periods of time the greatest risk is rapid moisture absorption. The fill hole is small enough that dust and dirt contamination would be unlikely if it's off for only a few minutes.
They make brake fluid testers, including test strips that measure moisture and/or pH levels. $15 or $20 battery powered models will check the moisture content. The more expensive $100 (and up to the thousands) will tell you the boiling point of the fluid. I don't have one, but my Sprinter tech at home has a high dollar one (about $1500 I think). He checks my fluid every now and then to make sure it's OK.
You certainly don't want to get any dirt, oil or other contaminants in the brake fluid. A small drop in brake fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir can be "topped up" but if the level consistently drops, the cause should be investigated and repaired. Brake fluid level in the master cylinder will drop as the linings (pads or shoes) wear and the calipers or wheel cylinders extend further to compensate. If you leave the cap off for expended periods of time the greatest risk is rapid moisture absorption. The fill hole is small enough that dust and dirt contamination would be unlikely if it's off for only a few minutes.
They make brake fluid testers, including test strips that measure moisture and/or pH levels. $15 or $20 battery powered models will check the moisture content. The more expensive $100 (and up to the thousands) will tell you the boiling point of the fluid. I don't have one, but my Sprinter tech at home has a high dollar one (about $1500 I think). He checks my fluid every now and then to make sure it's OK.
What he said the wife still thinks I wasn't paying attention
I really enjoy those writeups BTW turtle!
the wife still thinks I wasn't paying attentionI really enjoy those writeups BTW turtle!
Back to original subject . . . I'm planning on using Shell 134 in the rack . . . because I have it . . . somebody stop me if this is a bad idea
It's not a bad idea.
The mantra with Sprinter fluids really is "Stick to The List. Always stick to The List." But as with most anything, there can be exceptions, provided you make those exceptions with knowledge and intelligence.
After the fuel itself, the engine oil and transmission fluid are the top two critical fluids where deviating from The List will be detrimental.
A close third on the list is the engine coolant. Prestone is out. So are any coolants that are for "any" car and "any " color or for "all" aluminum engines. The chemistries of the coolant is critical. In a pinch you can use any ASTM D6210 coolant, but you'll probably want to flush and renew within a month or so. The genuine MB and genuine Mopar stuff (exactly the same as Zerex G 05) is readily available at all MB and Dodge dealers, and the Zerex (Valvoline) is available at many auto parts stores and Walmarts. NAPA for sure. Ford's Motorcraft Premium Gold coolant is the same as the Zerex G 05 coolant and can be used.
Next would be the brake fluid. DOT 4 Plus is critical, but a brand name doesn't matter.
Next up would be the air conditioner refrigerant. It's hard to find something other than the required R-134a, but it's still critical nonetheless.
Then there's the rear end differential (as opposed to the front end differential) gear oil. Stay within the GL5 rated XX-90 weight and the brand doesn't matter, nor does it necessarily have to have the MB Spec Approval on the label.
At the very bottom of the list is the windshield washer fluid. As long as the bottle's label says washer fluid, you're good to go.
Near the bottom and just above the washer fluid is the power steering fluid. It is soooo not critical. The only critical aspect to the power steering fluid is that it needs to be hydraulic fluid. You could actually use drug store mineral oil as the power steering hydraulic fluid (but of course that won't have the anti-foaming agents or the solvents necessary to clean the system and thin the fluid in cold temps). There are some vehicle manufacturers that have some very specific power steering fluid specs for critical reasons (seal and pump lubricity, and corrosion protection), like the Japanese auto makers, and Audi, VW, Porsche, Volvo, and some MB models, but the Sprinter isn't one of them.
The real question regarding power steering fluid is, how is power steering fluid different from ATF, and what components in the system are primarily driving the requirement for one vs. the other? Whatever vehicle you have, once you know the answers, you will know if a certain kind of power steering fluid is critical.
Automatic transmissions and power steering systems are more alike than they are different. Both use a high-pressure pump squeezes the fluid through the system and uses it to push on hydraulic rams. In both systems, a set of servos and valves control fluid flow and pressure, and where the fluid goes. Both use similar types of valves, seals and rams. Both operate under similar overall temperature ranges, and both use the fluid both in its operational role and as an internal lubricant. That's why you can use ATF in the power steering.
But their differences are important, and start at the pump itself. A transmission will typically use a precision-made gerotor-style pump, which looks like a set of intermeshing gears and moves fluid in small, but highly compressed pockets. Power steering systems will generally use a sliding-vane-type pump, which pushes more fluid per chamber, and doesn't have as tight internal clearances. Perhaps most importantly, though, is the fact that transmissions contain clutches, and power steering systems typically don't. The clutches require a very specific mix of friction modifiers to grip without slipping, but not seize up.
Transmission fluid and power steering fluid both start out as a mixture of mineral or synthetic oils, solvents and ant-foaming agents. The solvents both thin the fluid and clean the inside of the assembly, and anti-foaming agents keep air from churning the fluid into foam. ATF, though, also contains one of several different chemicals, usually some type of phenol, that changes the oil's slipperiness, modifies the friction. These friction modifiers don't make any difference in a power steering fluid, where the tolerances aren't nearly as tight and there are usually no clutches to moderate. So, most power steering systems won't notice or care about the presence or absence of transmission fluid modifiers.
Some power steering systems do contain clutches, though, just like an automatic transmission. The friction modifiers in transmission fluid won't hurt most power steering systems (and in a few cases are required), but not having them in the transmission fluid will definitely hurt the transmission.
That's why you an use ATF in a power steering system, but you really don't want to use power steering fluid in a transmission.
The mantra with Sprinter fluids really is "Stick to The List. Always stick to The List." But as with most anything, there can be exceptions, provided you make those exceptions with knowledge and intelligence.
After the fuel itself, the engine oil and transmission fluid are the top two critical fluids where deviating from The List will be detrimental.
A close third on the list is the engine coolant. Prestone is out. So are any coolants that are for "any" car and "any " color or for "all" aluminum engines. The chemistries of the coolant is critical. In a pinch you can use any ASTM D6210 coolant, but you'll probably want to flush and renew within a month or so. The genuine MB and genuine Mopar stuff (exactly the same as Zerex G 05) is readily available at all MB and Dodge dealers, and the Zerex (Valvoline) is available at many auto parts stores and Walmarts. NAPA for sure. Ford's Motorcraft Premium Gold coolant is the same as the Zerex G 05 coolant and can be used.
Next would be the brake fluid. DOT 4 Plus is critical, but a brand name doesn't matter.
Next up would be the air conditioner refrigerant. It's hard to find something other than the required R-134a, but it's still critical nonetheless.
Then there's the rear end differential (as opposed to the front end differential) gear oil. Stay within the GL5 rated XX-90 weight and the brand doesn't matter, nor does it necessarily have to have the MB Spec Approval on the label.
At the very bottom of the list is the windshield washer fluid. As long as the bottle's label says washer fluid, you're good to go.
Near the bottom and just above the washer fluid is the power steering fluid. It is soooo not critical. The only critical aspect to the power steering fluid is that it needs to be hydraulic fluid. You could actually use drug store mineral oil as the power steering hydraulic fluid (but of course that won't have the anti-foaming agents or the solvents necessary to clean the system and thin the fluid in cold temps). There are some vehicle manufacturers that have some very specific power steering fluid specs for critical reasons (seal and pump lubricity, and corrosion protection), like the Japanese auto makers, and Audi, VW, Porsche, Volvo, and some MB models, but the Sprinter isn't one of them.
The real question regarding power steering fluid is, how is power steering fluid different from ATF, and what components in the system are primarily driving the requirement for one vs. the other? Whatever vehicle you have, once you know the answers, you will know if a certain kind of power steering fluid is critical.
Automatic transmissions and power steering systems are more alike than they are different. Both use a high-pressure pump squeezes the fluid through the system and uses it to push on hydraulic rams. In both systems, a set of servos and valves control fluid flow and pressure, and where the fluid goes. Both use similar types of valves, seals and rams. Both operate under similar overall temperature ranges, and both use the fluid both in its operational role and as an internal lubricant. That's why you can use ATF in the power steering.
But their differences are important, and start at the pump itself. A transmission will typically use a precision-made gerotor-style pump, which looks like a set of intermeshing gears and moves fluid in small, but highly compressed pockets. Power steering systems will generally use a sliding-vane-type pump, which pushes more fluid per chamber, and doesn't have as tight internal clearances. Perhaps most importantly, though, is the fact that transmissions contain clutches, and power steering systems typically don't. The clutches require a very specific mix of friction modifiers to grip without slipping, but not seize up.
Transmission fluid and power steering fluid both start out as a mixture of mineral or synthetic oils, solvents and ant-foaming agents. The solvents both thin the fluid and clean the inside of the assembly, and anti-foaming agents keep air from churning the fluid into foam. ATF, though, also contains one of several different chemicals, usually some type of phenol, that changes the oil's slipperiness, modifies the friction. These friction modifiers don't make any difference in a power steering fluid, where the tolerances aren't nearly as tight and there are usually no clutches to moderate. So, most power steering systems won't notice or care about the presence or absence of transmission fluid modifiers.
Some power steering systems do contain clutches, though, just like an automatic transmission. The friction modifiers in transmission fluid won't hurt most power steering systems (and in a few cases are required), but not having them in the transmission fluid will definitely hurt the transmission.
That's why you an use ATF in a power steering system, but you really don't want to use power steering fluid in a transmission.
Thanks turtle. Explains why most people get away with ATF +4, the shell 134 is actually cheaper for me . . . and I have some . . . first paycheck I'll change the coolant, it's new but green and appears to be straight . . . trying to call up there now before they finish the brake lines, I know they've probably got dot3 on hand . . . hope it didn't drain out overnight bleeding that will be a chore
Coolant may be correct, I thought Zerex was yellow . . . Internet pic on benzworld seems to match the light fluorescent green thick look of mine...how can I tell
Don't go by color. The color doesn't matter as the correct chemistry comes in several colors. G05 coolant can be yellow, dark red red, light red, bluish-green, and even a dark blue. What matters is HOAT. It is just a cooling system that should have specific long life HOAT (hybrid organic acid technology) G05 coolant. You've heard that you can't mix colors with engine coolant, and that's generally true, as that comes from when mixing colors literally meant mixing Ethylene-Glycol coolant and Propylene-Glycol coolant, which is bad, bad, bad, as that turns the coolant into the exact opposite of a corrosion inhibitor. But now that G05 can also be yellow or green or blue, it's OK to mix that with the red that's in there, as long as everything all around is G05.
Well I know what standard antifreeze tastes like...
Off topic but important steel wheels 140 or 177 foot pounds... arguments here but it seems that the steel wheels are 177 and the aluminum ones are 140, correct? All the online tire sites say 140, 177 is higher than I'm used to...
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tknight
Veteran Expediter
I don't know about humans but a very little bit, even a taste will kill a dog in short time
I wish all anti freeze was pet friendly!
Still kickin...i have to give my Ram Van mouth to mouth from the overflow bottle in the hills of WV
The steel wheels is 177 lbf.ft ±7 lbf.ft (240 N.m ±10 N.m)
The light alloy wheels is 138 lbf.ft ±14 lbf.ft (190 N.m ±20 N.m)
Early on, like 10 years ago, the high torque of Sprinter wheels made people at tire shops really do a double-take on it. Whenever I had tires rotated or any work done I always had to impress upon them the 177 number. Usually they thought I was nuts and went and looked it up themselves. But for the last several years it seems most people have run into it now and know it's the 177.
Thanks. Hoping to me on the road monday!
Modern ATF formulations can contain something like 37 different ingredients. Only about 70% of it is oil by volume. The rest is friction modifiers, viscosity index improvers, antifoam, anticorrosives, etc.
Traditionally, slushboxes had vane pumps. Only in the last 20 years or so have gerotor pumps become popular. Often the reason being sound abatement, although pressure output is smoother. Vane pumps often were variable displacement, a feature gerotor pumps lacked, but things like PWM solenoids were added to modulate fluid flow.
Just adding to the confusion.