Sprinter insulation

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Turtle, is your suggestion about using foam board to cut down on the amount of spray on insulation? I was wondering if it would be reasonable to just fill the voids with open cell?
Yes. If you are using Great Stuff canned foam, using foam boards in the larger voids, and then filling in around the boards with canned foam really cuts down on the cost. If you are having it professionally sprayed, I'm not sure if using boards would save you much, if any.
 

midwestmax

Active Expediter
Recently been searching a lot regarding spray foam insulation and Sprinter Vans 2010 and newer. This post is interesting. Consider deformation effects from spray foam expansion. I see this resulting from closed cell (higher R) and open cell (lower R) spray applications. Open pic bigger to see side wall.
 

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Without knowing for sure what caused that, I'd be hard pressed to blame it on foam insulation. I've seen a lot of vans insulated with foam, and talked with a lot of van owners of the same, and talked with three different professional installers, and this is the first time I've seen or heard of spray foam deforming the walls of a van. The physics don't add up. The foam would have needed to have been applied in between the walls of the van and some other rigid surface that was more rigid than the walls of the van. I supposed if that side of the van were exposed to direct sunlight on a hot day when the foam was applied, and before the foam had expanded and cured the inner panels were reattached, then some kind of thermal deformation could have occurred during the curing process.

Not saying it couldn't happen, but I'd sure want to know all the particulars of how something like this could happen. I just have a hard time believing that unrestricted expanding foam could exert that kind of pressure so as to deform the metal walls of a van in such a wavy pattern as that.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I'd like to see how the inside walls are done...I am thinking it may have had say plywood walls that was then filled with the foam in the voids..
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
The shadows don't add up for it to be a foam problem, the strength of the foam is a lot less than that of the metal it is attached to. It actually looks like something got loose within the van and rolled against the wall.
 

golfournut

Veteran Expediter
One thing for sure, I'm gonna show this pic too the guy that's gonna do mine and get some guarantees!

Thanks for the pic.
 

midwestmax

Active Expediter
When the foam expands it applies significant force. This waviness was 100% caused by foam installation and this is a much more common issue than people realize. What happens is the foam is sprayed within the ribs and a combination of heat and expansion causes the metal to deform. The gauge on the Sprinter wall may also be a contributing factor.

Check out mobileoilchange comments on this forum.
Spray foam insulation inside a cargo van - Sprinter-Forum

There are installers out there who go to great lengths to protect against this. golfournut, you should inquire - but I'd be surprised if you got a guarantee.

gl,
Max
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
When the foam expands it applies significant force.
Yes, it does. But unless the atmospheric pressure inside the van is significantly greater than that outside the van, or there is some other interior constraint, the force of the expanding foam will push inward from the inside wall into which is was sprayed. Foam sprayed inside ribs, as long as it has a path of escape, then it will not be able to exert any pressure at all on the walls of the van.

This waviness was 100% caused by foam installation and this is a much more common issue than people realize
I don't think it's a much more common issue than people realize at all. I think it's a rare event. In fact, based on my own observational experience of looking at vans almost daily, I feel more than confident that it's a rarity, indeed. It's certainly not common at all, and there would have to be very rare circumstances which could cause such a rare event. You have people in this forum, me included, who have researched this like crazy, and have observed the results of spray-on foam. If it were much more common, someone would have mentioned it by now, since, you know, people have been insulating these things with spray on foam for a long time now.

If that waviness was 100% caused by foam insulation, which I don't believe for a minute, then it wasn't 100% the foam, it was 100% because someone did something to allow the conditions to occur, like as OVM said, installed fixed plywood walls or some other constraint that did not allow the foam to expand. And even that would be a tough one to accomplish with spray foam that was sprayed onto a surface and not directed through a hose.

What happens is the foam is sprayed within the ribs and a combination of heat and expansion causes the metal to deform.
That sounds more like speculation from faulty reasoning. One, if it can be sprayed within the ribs, it can escape from the ribs. I know that because I've sprayed foam within ribs and watched it expand right out of them. Two, the expanding foam does not generate even remotely close to the kinds of temperatures that will deform the sheet metal of a Sprinter wall. Again, the physics don't add up.

A far more likely explanation for the deformation on that van is, something broke loose inside the van and damaged the walls, and the driver/owner tried to pound it back in shape, and then, rather than admit to not being able to properly secure the load, he blamed it on foam insulation.

The gauge on the Sprinter wall may also be a contributing factor.
If it were, then it wouldn't be "may" is would be "is".

Check out mobileoilchange comments on this forum.
Spray foam insulation inside a cargo van - Sprinter-Forum
This is pure speculation, also. He states, ""IF" this type of insulation gets between two panels that arnt welded or bonded it "could" cause stress on the outter body panel and bow or push out the panel." That's a big IF and a big COULD. The problem is, the Sprinter's 1/4 panel walls do not consist of two panels that aren't welded or bonded.

The reply immediately following that post replaces speculation with actual results, anyway.

There are installers out there who go to great lengths to protect against this. golfournut, you should inquire - but I'd be surprised if you got a guarantee.
Could be, and caution should be taken. Still, there us simply no way that spray on-insulation of the type shown in the picture below could cause the wavy deformation shown in the picture you posted. No way, no how. It's physically impossible.

attachment.jpg
 

midwestmax

Active Expediter
Turtle, please call 323-276-1933 - General Truck Body. Ask them about waviness resulting from spray foam insulation. You will find you are far mistaken on this issue. If you don't like that try Delta Staag. If you don't like that try any West Coast Sprinter dealer or fleet salesperson and ask them of concerns on 2010 or later model Sprinter vans and wall deformation.

That picture submitted was taken by me immediately after a spray coat insulation by one of the largest installers in Southern California. Some may argue that they are morons, but genuine readers need to know one thing - this issue is not rare, it is expensive and you should be cautious when researching spray foam insulation.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yes, you should be cautious with any modification to your vehicle, insulation included. Maybe it's just a problem with 2010 and later models, but it's the same sheet metal on 2003 and later models, and the same dimensions and design as 2007 and later models, so I dunno. Maybe it's just a problem with West Coast spray foam installers, I don't know. One thing I do know is physics and what can and cannot happen when foam is sprayed onto a flat surface and allowed to expand without restriction or constraints.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Foam sprayed inside ribs, as long as it has a path of escape, then it will not be able to exert any pressure at all on the walls of the van.

Many years ago I used Great Stuff instead of stuffing fiberglass insulation into the gaps around my basement windows before sheetrocking. This was my first time using Great Stuff and figured the triple expanding foam had to be way better than the regular expanding foam. Maybe even 3 times better! As it cured and expanded it bowed the side and head jambs of the large casement windows.

Since then I have used the regular expanding Great Stuff to insulate the pillars, small cavities and the sliding side door without problem.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yep, it's got to have enough room to escape. Put too much in there and there's no path of escape.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
One thing to note, if the installer of spray foam tries to spray the foam too thickly, as to do the whole section in one whack, instead of applying it with 2 or 3 or more thinner layers, that's the same thing as not giving it room to expand. Applying it to thickly will have it cure unevenly, which would allow for a constraint to allow deformation. I don't know if the deformation problem is with one or a handful of installers on them west coast, or what, but if applied property, deformation won't happen.
 

buckwheat

Seasoned Expediter
Hi again folks. I checked with 2 spray foam contractors that I frequently use and they both said that the temp of the material that is sprayed on the walls of the van can cause the metal to distort as the heat will cause the sheet metal to rapidly expand. This is especially true if too much is sprayed on at one time. The foam will grab the metal and supports and not let it go back to it's original shape. To counteract this, Mike sprayed a thin "flash" coat on the walls to minimize heat build up and by the time he finished he could go back to the starting point and start over. He was also careful to not build it up too fast. I had already covered anything that I didn't want to get oversprayed and the whole thing took about an hour to do. His spray rig has a meter that reads "units" so he charged me by the unit instead of per square foot. The job cost me $300.00. I picked up 6 16 oz cans of Dow Great Stuff(for windows and doors)and finished up by filling any areas he couldn't get too. I'm doing any door areas that contain hardware with foam sheets. Sorry to resurrect an old thread, just thought it might help anyone contemplating a spray foam job. Also, you might have a hard time getting a guarantee from anyone as to the metal distortion. They know their product and it's capabilities and will tell you the possibilities. I'm sure Mike would do someone's vehicle if they were willing to take it to his home in Hale, Mi. Have a great day and stay safe.
 

Marty

Veteran Expediter
Does anyone know a good place to have spray on insulation done? One that has experience doing van.
 
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