Sprinter 2500 GCWR DOT Motor Carrier

[halexh]

Hello, just trying to get some info on MC/DOT. Most Sprinters fall under the < 10,000 lbs rule as far as GVWR is concerned.

Now if you were to have a 2005 Sprinter 2500 with a GVWR of 8550 lbs and have it fully loaded would that allow you to tow lets say a trailer with a curb weight of 1450 lbs before you would have to stop at weight scales.

If you were to tow a 5000 lbs trailer would that mean that you are over the >10,000 lbs and now have to stop at scales. Would that also mean that you need a DOT # or a Log Book. Just trying to get some different set up ideas.

I want to be able to load my van and tow a boat behind it or a utility trailer and not have to stop at scale do all the commercial stuff that goes along with it. However the towing will be done for compensation/hire.

Any info stories would be much appreciated.

 

[Turtle]

Hello, just trying to get some info on MC/DOT. Most Sprinters fall under the < 10,000 lbs rule as far as GVWR is concerned.

The rule can be found here:
Definitions. - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—

(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

Now if you were to have a 2005 Sprinter 2500 with a GVWR of 8550 lbs and have it fully loaded would that allow you to tow lets say a trailer with a curb weight of 1450 lbs before you would have to stop at weight scales.

Yes.

If you were to tow a 5000 lbs trailer would that mean that you are over the >10,000 lbs and now have to stop at scales. Would that also mean that you need a DOT # or a Log Book.

Yes and Yes.

I want to be able to load my van and tow a boat behind it or a utility trailer and not have to stop at scale do all the commercial stuff that goes along with it. However the towing will be done for compensation/hire.

If you're hauling anything in the van or in the trailer for compensation, then you are a CMV if the combined weight, or the combined weight rating, is more than 10,000 pounds. You'll have to do all the commercial stuff that goes along with it, including a medical card, log book, operating authority, etc.

 

[halexh]

Thank You for the speedy reply. I read the FMCSA website a couple days ago but was hoping to have misunderstood something.

I guess its going to be (full van or trailer) not (full van and trailer)

 

[la90043]

Hi everyone. But is not the law state regardless of GVW or GCGVW that hauling anything for compensation you are A CMV? And then if you exceed 10,000lbs GVW or GCVW not only you are A CMV but then you have to abide by USDOT regulations. Correct? Let me know. Rob.

 

[Murraycroexp]

The FMCSA uses some "IFs" in their definition.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=383.5

 

[Murraycroexp]

The "over 10,000# GVWR" you are referring to is the stipulation that towed units over 10K are CMVs.

 

[Turtle]

Hi everyone. But is not the law state regardless of GVW or GCGVW that hauling anything for compensation you are A CMV? And then if you exceed 10,000lbs GVW or GCVW not only you are A CMV but then you have to abide by USDOT regulations. Correct? Let me know. Rob.

Which state? There might be a state where a CMV is defined as any vehicle hauling anything for compensation, but I'm not aware of any such state.

Do not confuse "Commercial Vehicle" and "Commercial Motor Vehicle."

"Commercial Vehicle" is simply any vehicle used in commerce and/or registered to a business. This encompasses everything from tractor-trailers down to company cars and to the Toyota Prius used for office supply deliveries.

The Department of Transportation regulates heavy trucks and buses, and vehicles which pose an unreasonable risk to the public, when operating in interstate commerce. These are vehicles that weigh more than 10,000 pounds, vehicles which carry more than 15 passengers, and vehicles hauling hazardous materials in a quantity which require placarding. These are defined as "Commercial Motor Vehicles."

 

[mjmsprt40]

OK, let's be clear about this so we're all on the same page. If you're hauling anything for compensation, including the trailer itself-- what we're looking at is the declared cgvwr of the resulting rig. It doesn't matter if both the van and the trailer are empty, if your combined gross vehicle weight rating is over 10K and you're doing this trip for compensation you're a CMV and subject to all of the DOT regs concerning your vehicle. That means even if the actual weight is well under 10K, which it may very well be with an empty van and trailer. Fun, ain't it?

Wait, it gets funnier: If you're driving a huge RV towing a pick-em-up truck as a dinghy, you may have a vehicle well over 10K in fact and at most some states might make you scale-- but since it's your private rig and you're not doing this for compensation the government doesn't give a rip about anything except maybe that your driver's license has the correct weight classification.

So, you're driving a Sprinter with an 8,550 GVWR and towing a boat trailer that tips the scales at 4,500 GVWR. Well over 10K. Do you have to have the DOT physical and the log books and all the rest of it??? If it's on your own time and you're going fishing, you probably only have to drive across the scales. If you're delivering the boat for pay-- you're a CMV and have to obey ALL of the laws pertaining to your CGVWR.

I have to mention one other thing while I'm thinking on it, trailer-towing being what it is. When you consider how much stuff you can put on your van, you must deduct the tongue-weight of the trailer. In the case I cited, this means deducting at least 450 lbs from the payload you can put on your van, since at least 10 percent of the loaded trailer weight needs to be on the tongue to prevent fishtailing. Very important to consider this.

 

[la90043]

California is such A state.

 

[la90043]

Which state? There might be a state where a CMV is defined as any vehicle hauling anything for compensation, but I'm not aware of any such state.

Do not confuse "Commercial Vehicle" and "Commercial Motor Vehicle."

"Commercial Vehicle" is simply any vehicle used in commerce and/or registered to a business. This encompasses everything from tractor-trailers down to company cars and to the Toyota Prius used for office supply deliveries.

The Department of Transportation regulates heavy trucks and buses, and vehicles which pose an unreasonable risk to the public, when operating in interstate commerce. These are vehicles that weigh more than 10,000 pounds, vehicles which carry more than 15 passengers, and vehicles hauling hazardous materials in a quantity which require placarding. These are defined as "Commercial Motor Vehicles."

Who needs a permit?
• Any person or business entity that is paid to transport property in their motor vehicle regardless of vehicle size or weight. Persons who transport property for compensation are deemed a ‘For-Hire’ motor carrier.

• Generally, any person or business entity operating a commercial vehicle with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 10,001 pounds or more, either for business or personal use. Persons operating such vehicles are deemed a ‘Private’ motor carrier.


CLICK ON HERE TOO
Motor Carrier Permit Frequently Asked Questions

 

[Turtle]

The California Motor Carrier Permit does not define CMV, as was suggested above. Needing a permit to haul property does not make you a CMV. A permit defines what you are allowed to do, not what vehicle you do it in. In New York, if your vehicle engages in commerce you have to have commercial plates, which prevents you from driving on Parkways, but that doesn't make you a CMV, either.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

The California Motor Carrier Permit does not define CMV, as was suggested above. Needing a permit to haul property does not make you a CMV. A permit defines what you ate allowed to do, not what vehicle you do it in. In New York, if your vehicle engages in commerce you have to have commercial plates, which prevents you from driving on Parkways, but that doesn't make you a CMV, either.

Some states requires one to have a permit to build a fire....that doesn't make me a fireman either.....

All states require me to have a permit to fish...that doesn't make me a fish.....

 

[la90043]

The California Motor Carrier Permit does not define CMV, as was suggested above. Needing a permit to haul property does not make you a CMV. A permit defines what you ate allowed to do, not what vehicle you do it in. In New York, if your vehicle engages in commerce you have to have commercial plates, which prevents you from driving on Parkways, but that doesn't make you a CMV, either.

Well, the law states that you must have the commercial motor vehicle permit regardless of size. To fulfill that requirement you must show proof of commercial insurance for the state to extend you that permit. so recapping, you need commercial insurance to get a commercial vehicle permit regardless of size of vehicle. how would I go by convincing A trial by jury that im not a commercial vehicle?

I have cargo vans with commercial insurance and commercial permits. Here in California Its A misdemeanor not to have it. Regardless of size of vehicle.

the law pretty much defines you in that way no? Let me know. Rob

 

[Turtle]

Well, the law states that you must have the commercial motor vehicle permit regardless of size.

No it doesn't. It says you must have a Motor Carrier Permit. The permit is issued to the motor carrier as evidence of the registration with the DMV of their Carrier Identification number (CA#), as required by CVC Section 34620. Additionally, the permit verifies the motor carrier has met all of the statutory requirements to commercially operate motor vehicles on California's highways.

To fulfill that requirement you must show proof of commercial insurance for the state to extend you that permit. so recapping, you need commercial insurance to get a commercial vehicle permit regardless of size of vehicle.

You need commercial insurance to operate any vehicle in commerce in the state of California, be it a property hauling vehicle or a company car registered to a business.

how would I go by convincing A trial by jury that im not a commercial vehicle?

Show them the California Department of Motor Vehicles actual definition of a Commercial Motor Vehicle: V C Section 15210 Definitions

V C Section 15210 Definitions

(b) (1) "Commercial motor vehicle" means any vehicle or combination of vehicles that requires a class A or class B license, or a class C license with an endorsement issued pursuant to paragraph (5) of subdivision (a) of Section 15278.

(Paragraph (5) of subdivision (a) of Section 15278 is about Passenger, HAZMAT, tank and doubles endorsements, and I know that without even looking it up).

[/quote]I have cargo vans with commercial insurance and commercial permits. Here in California Its A misdemeanor not to have it. Regardless of size of vehicle.[/quote]Yeah, so? So do plumbers vans and floral delivery vans and office supply delivery passenger cars. That doesn't mean the Toyota Camry is a Commercial Motor Vehicle. It simply means it's a vehicle operating in commerce. In California, and most states, all Commercial Motor Vehicles must have commercial insurance, but not all vehicles that are required to have commercial insurance are Commercial Motor Vehicles. It's the defintion of Commercial Motor Vehicle which defines what one of them is.

It's kinda like... all thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs.

the law pretty much defines you in that way no? Let me know. Rob

No it doesn't. The law is very clear on it's definitions. If you try to read something into it that's not there, or assume it means something it doesn't say, you'll almost certainly be wrong.

Don't worry, though, you're certainly not the first person to assume that having commercial insurance makes your van a CMV.

 

[la90043]

No it doesn't. It says you must have a Motor Carrier Permit. The permit is issued to the motor carrier as evidence of the registration with the DMV of their Carrier Identification number (CA#), as required by CVC Section 34620. Additionally, the permit verifies the motor carrier has met all of the statutory requirements to commercially operate motor vehicles on California's highways.

You need commercial insurance to operate any vehicle in commerce in the state of California, be it a property hauling vehicle or a company car registered to a business.

Show them the California Department of Motor Vehicles actual definition of a Commercial Motor Vehicle: V C Section 15210 Definitions

V C Section 15210 Definitions

(b) (1) "Commercial motor vehicle" means any vehicle or combination of vehicles that requires a class A or class B license, or a class C license with an endorsement issued pursuant to paragraph (5) of subdivision (a) of Section 15278.

(Paragraph (5) of subdivision (a) of Section 15278 is about Passenger, HAZMAT, tank and doubles endorsements, and I know that without even looking it up).

I have cargo vans with commercial insurance and commercial permits. Here in California Its A misdemeanor not to have it. Regardless of size of vehicle.[/quote]Yeah, so? So do plumbers vans and floral delivery vans and office supply delivery passenger cars. That doesn't mean the Toyota Camry is a Commercial Motor Vehicle. It simply means it's a vehicle operating in commerce. In California, and most states, all Commercial Motor Vehicles must have commercial insurance, but not all vehicles that are required to have commercial insurance are Commercial Motor Vehicles. It's the defintion of Commercial Motor Vehicle which defines what one of them is.

It's kinda like... all thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs.

No it doesn't. The law is very clear on it's definitions. If you try to read something into it that's not there, or assume it means something it doesn't say, you'll almost certainly be wrong.

Don't worry, though, you're certainly not the first person to assume that having commercial insurance makes your van a CMV.[/QUOTE]


So the definition of A commercial motor vehicle is=(b) (1) "Commercial motor vehicle" means any vehicle or combination of vehicles that requires a class A or class B license, or a class C license with an endorsement issued pursuant to paragraph (5) of subdivision (a) of Section 15278.

Do not confuse "Commercial Vehicle" and "Commercial Motor Vehicle."

"Commercial Vehicle" is simply any vehicle used in commerce and/or registered to a business. This encompasses everything from tractor-trailers down to company cars and to the Toyota Prius used for office supply deliveries.

What class of license does A tractor trailer require? Let me know. Rob.

 

[Turtle]

What class of license does A tractor trailer require? Let me know. Rob.

If you don't know that, then quite frankly you have no business being in this business.

The answer to that can be found in any CDL Driver Handbook from any state, at the California DMV Web site, the FMCSA's Web site, and in the US Code of Federal Regulations part 49.

 

[mjmsprt40]

Ouch. Double ouch. Please, please say I didn't actually read someone ask what class of license a tractor-trailer requires.

Here in Illinois, the classes are A, B, C and D. A is tractor-trailer over 26K, B is heavy straight over 26K, both of these heavy classes require a CDL. Below that, C is anything between 16K and 26K, and D is under 16K except motorcycles and motor-driven cycles. Classes C and D do not require CDLs unless you haul more than 15 passengers for hire or haul hazmat that requires the vehicle to be placarded. I agree with Turtle here, if you don't know what license a TT requires then you sure won't know what hazmat requires placarding, so maybe expedited isn't for you.

 

[la90043]

"Commercial Vehicle" is simply any vehicle used in commerce and/or registered to a business. This encompasses everything from tractor-trailers down to company cars and to the Toyota Prius used for office supply deliveries.

Yes we all know what license we need for a Tractor trailer/semi. That's not the point. The point is.

Im saying that as it reads above A commercial vehicle are all that work for compensation. And that though the definition of a "commercial motor vehicle" is with a license of A, B and C with an endorsement we should not be so vague or misleading the definition of it. To me that definition was written and then after that during the years others laws and other codes added. codes on top of codes. codes doubled dipped and so on.

California uses existing USDOT codes and laws and then interprets them and uses them too and other codes and laws are passed in California and then you have laws and codes from State Government and Federal Government.

If you look like a duck. quack like a duck. swim like a duck. taste like a duck! LOL! then you are a duck.

Say your in a 10000 lbs GVW stake bed/Flatbed. you have on the side door of the truck "Rush Delivery Service" 1-800-pickup-now your USDOT # MC # your loaded with galvanized plumbing pipe weighing 4000lbs and you slam into A stopped Toyota Prius on an Interstate Hwy killing every occupant. your vehicle has commercial license plates, it has commercial vehicle permit, it has commercial insurance and it has commercial identification markings.

You really gonna tell the USDOT, Highway Patrol and a Trial by Jury that you're not A "Commercial Motor Vehicle" and for them to read the definition of one. Yeah right.

To have members on this forum believe that you're not one is A disservice.

 

[Turtle]

You really gonna tell the USDOT, Highway Patrol and a Trial by Jury that you're not A "Commercial Motor Vehicle" and for them to read the definition of one. Yeah right.

The USDOT already knows the definition of a Commercial Motor Vehicle, because they wrote the definition. And the Highway Patrol already knows the definition of Commercial Motor Vehicle because it's a law and they read it. A judge or an attorney will show the definition to a jury so then they'll know what it is without them having to do what you did, namely assume or rationalize or try and figure out what it might be.

To have members on this forum believe that you're not one is A disservice.

It's a disservice to try and convince someone to believe something other than the truth, and the truth is that a Commercial Motor Vehicle is unambiguously defined by the DOT, and the definition doesn't mention plates or insurance even once.

You believe, and as you have stated and have labored greatly to convince, that regardless of vehicle or combination-vehicle weight, if you haul anything for compensation is means your are driving a Commercial Motor Vehicle. You are, quite simply, incorrect.

The reason the US Code of Federal Regulations, the US Department of Transportation, the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, and every state in the country has a page of definitions of terms used in their laws and regulations is so that people don't make the mistake of reasoned or rationalized assumptions or conclusions that are incorrect.