Some take an oath, we all have an obligation

[OntarioVanMan]

Am throwing this up here for discussion.
Being a newbee in this great country I have no real predisposition on the subject but will learn from whats discussed. Thanks

May 23, 2007
by Phil C. Restino, Jr.

As President, George W. Bush swore an oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States". Other members of the executive, legislative and judiciary branches, as well as members of state and local governments and all civil and military officers have sworn a similar oath to "support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic".

The American soldier upon enlistment swears the same oath and is ready and willing to die in keeping that sacred promise. Our soldiers are duty-bound to obey all lawful orders from their chain of command, which includes the President of the United States, the Commander in Chief. The President is the Commander in Chief of our military only, otherwise he is a public servant of and accountable to the American people and the laws of our land.

Although most Americans never take the oath our soldiers have, we do have a moral obligation to support and defend those who are willing to die to defend "our freedoms" as provided to us in the Constitution. Our soldiers should never be sent to kill and be killed in our behalf unless absolutely necessary, and only then with our informed consent.

President Bush, Vice President Cheney, and Congress have all demonstrated that they have not only failed to support and defend the Constitution, but they have actually worked to dismantle it. What can we do? We can ask those in our state and local governments who have taken the oath, to include law enforcement, what they are willing to do to support and defend our Constitution. Will they speak out in defense of it, and if not, why not? Perhaps it's time we have that conversation.

Some say that in order to honor the many soldiers who have perished or have otherwise given much in the fighting in Iraq, we must "finish the job". I agree. The November election was only half the job. Americans need to give up some of the 33.81 hours of television we watch per week (Neilsen's October 2006) and become actively involved in forcing those in Congress to put aside their campaigning and fundraising and immediately take up their duties of (1) investigating the Bush-Cheney administration for its deliberate lying of our country into a pre-planned war of aggression on Iraq, (2) removing them from office by means of Impeachment as provided for in the Constitution, and (3) holding them to account as the law requires

Congress needs to be told firmly with the voice of many that our troops should be immediately loaded onto airplanes and flown the heck out of Iraq now. Does the Military-Industrial Complex, which President Eisenhower warned us about in January 1961, want that? Do the large American and British oil companies so close to privatizing Iraq's oil reserves want that? Do the politicians, Democrats and Republicans alike, using "the troops" as a political tool for the 2008 elections want that? Does our consolidated media, owned by only a few multi-national corporations within the Military-Industrial Complex and who make billions of dollars on selling war and political campaign advertising time want that? No, no, no and no. Will Congress adhere to the wishes of the American people instead? Yes, but only when enough of us get involved and demand it.

Will the Iraqis follow our troops back to America if withdrawn? If so, with who's Air Force and Navy? As for the soldiers who have already died in vain, we need to honor them by working for truth and justice and not allow more soldiers to die in vain. "We the people" owe it to them to now work diligently to right this horrible wrong called Iraq and defend our Constitution by removing the criminal Bush-Cheney administration from our employ and bring our troops home now.

For the sake of our troops, and "our freedoms" which they are willing to die for to protect, let's get involved and let's finish the job. To speak with representatives in Congress, Americans can telephone the Capitol Switchboard at (202) 224-3121 or (800) 828-0498 and ask for them by name. Impeachment Now! Troops Home Now! Get involved and make it happen.

 

[Pilgrim]

"Will the Iraqis follow our troops back to America if withdrawn? If so, with who's Air Force and Navy?"

I would suppose the same air force and navy "they" used on 9/11. However, "they" are not the Iraqis.

This one sentence from this article illustrates how misguided and out of touch the author is. He doesn't understand that radical Islam and Al-Quaeda are the enemy and that they're already here and have been here for some time. He also doesn't understand the consequences of the John Murtha surrender policy that would turn the country over to the Islamo-fascists from Iran and Syria. However, it's a great example of the liberals' worldview and their vitriolic Bush hatred.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Pilgram:

The way I understand it Afganistan and Iraq are two different issues.

One was to get the Taliban and Bin Laden for 9/11
and the other was to overthrow a dictator. Very much different issues.

 

[Pilgrim]

It was different then, but Al-Quaeda is in Iraq now. We won the war to overthrow Hussein, but now the fight is to win the peace. To do this the foreign insurgents and terrorists like Al-Quaeda must be defeated not only militarily, but politically as well. Note the progress lately in Anbar province where the local sheiks and tribesmen have banded together with our forces to drive out the foreign insurgents. We need to have more success stories like this, and hopefully there will be more in the future.

 

[greg334]

OVM,

Actually it was two different issues at one time. Afghanistan was about the 9/11 attack, Iraq was fulfilling the UN resolution and preventing the use of biological and chemical weapons and to put us into a stabilizing position in the Middle East. Now they seem to be the same.

The fact that regardless what is being said that there were no biological or chemical weapons in Iraq, I have to point out the fact that many of the things that were discovered during the first and after the second Iraqi war indicated the capabilities of the country and 40 tons of Sarin was destroyed in ’89. One easy way to remember Saddam had something that could kill a lot of people is this; he was a dictator of a country that had a lot of resources and if a college kid at UCLA can extract Sarin from castor beans what makes you think the leader of a large country can’t.

Lesson one, the country is a mess and we have a lot of uneducated people running around saying things like the president is a public servant which is not really true. Many don’t even know what the 10th amendment is or why the 17th needs to be repealed.

Ok the person who wrote this is affiliate with the veterans for peace organization and they have in the past written (or affiliated members) some good stuff but a lot of skewed articles that have a left leaning to them and like many who are not strategist or educated with intelligence from creditable sources, take that their opinion is the only correct one – which is clear in this article you posted.

Now tying this with Edward’s speech for the Council on Foreign Relations he made the other day is clear to me and others that many just don’t get it. Edwards in his speech indicates a really big deficient in his knowledge of the situation over there, the true impact of his strategy and the misgivings of his approach to the use of the military in the Middle East in general.

Pilgrim hit the nail square on the head when he said “This one sentence from this article illustrates how misguided and out of touch the author is. He doesn't understand that radical Islam and Al-Quaeda are the enemy and that they're already here and have been here for some time.â€

See regardless what many will say, the problem is really simple but made complex because of the misunderstanding of the culture we have had right from the start and continue to have. The simple part is this; if we pull out, we create a vacuum within the country and this vacuum will cause a repeat of problems after WW1 but on a greater scale. We will see Iran move into Iraq, we will see a division of Iraq and a purging (meaning killing) of opposing religious sects, including Christians and Jews who remain in Iraq. We will not be able to do a thing because we left the area and any military build up will be met with a strong Iran and Syrian allied force which will end up becoming a war that will target both us and Israel. Our response will be mild in comparison to Israel’s response, they will use everything they have to survive and we again will have come out of it as the villains on the world stage.

The complexity I speak of is the lack of knowledge we actually have, we still are behind in just in our intelligence gathering capabilities and with the assault on the presidents programs to monitor phone calls made to overseas, bank records and other things that would be a help, we as a country have our hands tied because of the hatred of the left towards our country. We failed to understand that the people understand strength, which we don’t show. Instead we take a western point of view that compassion shows more strength than force.

Now Europe is fighting for it’s survival within its borders right now. France has elected a conservative president which actually reflects the need to emulate the leadership of the United States and Germany has also had some change within the political system moving more to the right to stem the radical Islamic take over of the EU and the far left faction within the EU. The Dutch seem to be also moving to the right, but countries like Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries don’t have the open immigration or the former colonies issues to deal with. Spain and Italy unfortunately has taken the position of running and hiding.

The one country that not only recognizes the threat but has already been protesting and fighting within its borders is Turkey – an islamic country of all things. They do not want an Islamic despot government or anywhere near what other countries have in the region. We need to take a serious look at their fight to illustrate our problems within our country.

I can go on for hours on this whole thing (and get more mail saying I am boring) but I still contend that unless we unite as a country, understand that the threat will always be there and that the people who everyone seems to hate is actually doing a better job (not the best) than what we could have had, we will lose this fight. We fail ourselves by listening to the Murthas, Obamas and the other defeatist. It is not a fight between good and evil as some have said but a real fight for survival of our country and the world.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

WoW...

I've already thought about the vacuum you referred to if the coaltion were to leave now..and thought that Iran and Syria would divy up Iraq and do some ethnic cleansing per say...But don't you think we are babysitting the Iraqi's a bit too long? We could sustain a measured pull back and have quick attack squads to quell major incursions. The likening of Isreals squads. This could be done with loud announcements that incursions would be dealt with severely and swiftly. Not to give the immpression of weakness rather from a position of strength as these people only recognize strength.
And let the Iraqi people do more of thier own fighting.

 

[Aviator]

>It was different then, but Al-Quaeda is in Iraq now. We won
>the war to overthrow Hussein, but now the fight is to win
>the peace. To do this the foreign insurgents and terrorists
>like Al-Quaeda must be defeated not only militarily, but
>politically as well. Note the progress lately in Anbar
>province where the local sheiks and tribesmen have banded
>together with our forces to drive out the foreign
>insurgents. We need to have more success stories like this,
>and hopefully there will be more in the future.

100% Correct.

Aviator

 

[Jayman]

I dont know who Phil C. Restino, Jr. is, but...I do wish he and those like him would keep his anti Bush ramblings to himself. Im tired of hearing the likes of him spew hate. Issues like Iraq become too much about politics than it should.

 

[greg334]

OVM,
“I've already thought about the vacuum you referred to if the coaltion were to leave now..and thought that Iran and Syria would divy up Iraq and do some ethnic cleansing per say...â€

Ok it seems you are on the right track but let’s think about what the UN involvement was in the past with Saddam and think about the prosperous areas of Iraq that would fall without the support of other countries who ignore the UN. Does this make sense?

“But don't you think we are babysitting the Iraqi's a bit too long?â€

No not at all. Looking at Japan and Germany after WW2 and seeing that we were there and technically still there as a stabilizing force. The Japanese know if we leave, North Korea will start expanding and positioning themselves to invade the south and possibly Japan. Not my idea, it is the Japanese who think this way. Germany also seems to be along the same lines with Russia’s continuing instability and a lean back to the Stalinist days. But we must also consider that it took almost three years just to stabilize Germany with a multinational forces occupying Germany – Iraq that was a more suppressed society in the time we were there, we have done a lot more in less time. Many would say we can’t compare WW2 to Iraq, but truthfully we can for a number of reasons, one is pride in ones country. What I mean is the number of Iraqis who have returned to help rebuild their country are just amazing.

“We could sustain a measured pull back and have quick attack squads to quell major incursions. The likening of Isreals squads. This could be done with loud announcements that incursions would be dealt with severely and swiftly. Not to give the immpression of weakness rather from a position of strength as these people only recognize strength.
And let the Iraqi people do more of their own fighting.â€

This will not work for a lot of reasons, one is logistics of deployment of the number of troops needed will be too difficult to have any operations to be successful and consistent. Another is the Iraqi/Iranian mind is not thinking that remote warfare is a position of strength. The Israelis are a completely different country with a completely different set of procedures, one is they don’t tell their enemies what they are doing to prevent killing of its citizens where we have the press who publish secrets. This all adds up.

What should have happened never did that would have prevented all of this; we should have supported the Shah as much as we could have but didn’t. the second part of that is in 1979 when our embassy was captured, we should have told the government of Iran that they have 24 hours to release our people or else. The minute after 24 hours, bomb the country until nothing was left. As harsh as this all sounds, the Iranians and Iraqis I have talked to said that would have been the proof that we were a strong country. But look at that leader today; he is an embarrassment to the country.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

To give credit to Carter (not really, but...), Reagan had a hand in showing our weakness as well. Rubber bullets in Lebannon killed over 200 Marines. Withdrawing after that attack made us look weaker. Then giving into kidnap demands all throughout the 80s did it again. Bush I stood up to the kidnappers, but gave in to the pressure not to go into Baghdad. Clinton... well, we know about his non-actions. Bush II has the same dilemma with keeping up with international appearances.

-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!

 

[OntarioVanMan]

You can almost trace this weakness back to WW2 when the U.S and Hitler were buddy buddy while the rest of the world was at war with him. I lost 2 great uncles while the U.S sold arms to Hitler to kill them in 1939...Yes there was a war before 1942...but most Americans don't know that!! Your history books seem to start in 1942 for some reason.
I was raised in a family that begrudged (hated is too strong a word)the U.S. because of this. My grandparents generation is almost gone and now my mother and relatives are at thier eve too...then theres my generation and we remember the dinner conversations about them darned Yankees. I for one are trying to teach my kids that Americans aren't all that bad....*L*

 

[greg334]

OVM,
Sorry about your Great Uncles.

This is a long explanation not to dispute you but rather I want to have someone to correct what I think is correct to learn.

I think that you are thinking about the alleged connection between the Bush family and Thyssen - who was one weapon manufacturers in Germany. There is this whole big conspiracy plot that the Bushs got all this money from the NAZIs who paid them for steel and oil (relatively from the same source telling us that the WTC was a bush plot). This happened at the same time that the Ruhr and Saar areas of Germany provided more than enough steel for Germany to rearm.

Oil on the other hand was being sold to Germany through Sweden (big provider of Oil to the NAZIs) and other European countries, including BP. But the sale of ‘Saudi oil’ was near impossible because the great oil reserves that were discovered in early 1938 but were not even close to being developed until after the war. Saudi still had a strong connection to the UK and BP managed the fields but not all the transportation of what they got out of Saudi at that time (meaning that they would not sell to Germany) and even hosted one of the big three conferences during the war. Their fear was the take over of the kingdom by the factions of Arabs who sided with Germany with the promise of independence after Germany became the victors over UK.

And all I have yet to find in anything outside of a lot of propaganda references that have absolutely no creditability to them and even the copy of Fritz Thyssen’s book “I paid Hitler†I have is not a creditable source seeing it was not written by him but a journalist for propaganda purposes in 1940/41. This book made a lot of claims of US/German connections that were not true and pretty much ignored by the main stream media of the time but used by the isolationist and the FDR haters to try to prevent involvement in Europe's war by the imperial government. After 12/41, the book and a lot of rhetoric was ignored until the Nuremburg trials which proved the book to be somewhat a false account.

There were business connections between other families and the German Government, Ford for one profited a lot by their connection and so did GM, GE, Westinghouse and others.

The thing to consider is that FDR was fighting congress to increase arms production and lift the cap on the military personal at the same time fighting a really huge isolationist group in the US who would have jumped all over this if it was true. Maybe true but I find it hard to be.

The question is in 1939, why would we sell small arms to the Germans when their production of small arms out did us 2 to 1 since 1936 and they could have sold to us to help us?

On the other hand, I have been reading more that we were the aggressor in WW2 and we were the cause of the Japanese bombing us, so with some of the twisted historians out there, anything is possible.

But anyway the weakness in the Middle East was directly caused by the inaction of Carter when the embassy was taken over by the Iranian government, no other time would we have tolerated something like this and let it pass.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but what exactly did we sell to the Germans? I'm sure we sold (and gave) a lot more to Britain. I also know we broke our own embargo against Japan and sold them steel and oil; so nothing surprises me. Kinda sounds a lot like the oil for food scandal, except the money was helping a nation recover from depression during WW2, not just line a few diplomats' pockets.

-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I didn't mean to maybe sound anti American nothing could be further from the truth...Theres alot of stories floating around I am sure of that..But as ya say The victors write history...so theres the British version,Canadian, France and the U.S version of history( I didn't list them all)...Kinda like bible versions...but over all same story but a local bend.

 

[greg334]

OVM,
"I didn't mean to maybe sound anti American nothing could be further from the truth"

I hope you understand I didn't imply that you did say anything anti-american but brought up a point from a Canadian position that is rather important about a war we were all involved with.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

NoNo gregg.. that was more a disclaimer because we have some real rednecks in here that have passed along some nasty pm's to me in the past. Some react without thinking, more emotion.

 

[greg334]

No problem, glad it wasn't me.

Well anyway...

Any comments on my post?

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I'd like to comment but it would be only unquantified material from what I remember reading and hearing...To debate would be futile as I couldn't back myself up....

However I could rant and stomp if you'd like???